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It's just inclusive. There's no other benefit to a 25 anymore. Rather unfortunate considering that big raids used to be what this game was all about. A lot of us knew it was inevitable that 25-mans would eventually start dying off en masse. It's frankly a miracle they lasted *this* long ever since the game switched into a 10/25 split.
That inclusiveness, however, is a pretty large benefit if your priority is community. We were fortunate enough be in a position to do retain that without taking a major progression hit.
Edited by Zebrimuri on 3/30/2012 9:47 PM PDT
Are there even any 25s left besides yours?
None left besides us that I know of. I haven't seen a 25-man kill update in the progression thread for quite a long time. Might be one 25 left out there maybe doing normals and starter heroics that isn't posting? No clue.
It's really not cool though. That said, I totally get all the reasons and frankly, if we didn't manage to keep a strong raid together and progress at the top, we would have looked like complete idiots for keeping ourselves in this raid size. When you weigh the pros and cons of it all, it's hard to judge anybody who switches to 10s because it's the smart thing to do on paper.
It's a world-wide trend too. Judging by our WoWProgress numbers, there are three times as many 10-mans with Heroic Madness kills as there are 25s if that's any indication. I have no idea if devs took notice, or if they're planning anything to fix that at all. It's unfortunate for whatever little left of the future of this game.
I believe Exodus (Horde) and The Valiant (Alliance) are the only other 25s left on Silver Hand, both currently at 2/8H.
This realm just can't support them, at least not properly. It has been enough of a fight just to support our own, especially through December-February.
Pact of War switched to 10-man progression for Firelands (with a 25-man less hardcore run), and we had to cut down the 25-man recently as well.
Winter was hard on attendance for everyone.
If they're doing something about low pop realms, they better be doing something about this.
The shared lockout was a really bad idea.
Truth. As Criph said, I still don't really know how exactly we pulled through between December and February. We somehow blundered through.
Looking back, I think Firelands was really the point at which things shifted not just on SH but worldwide. It's been getting harder and harder to justify 25-mans to begin with, with 10-mans being logistically easier and still yielding similar rewards, including legendaries. Consider that on top of the fact that, Firelands was a rather obscenely difficult zone at the heroic level until they hit it with big nerfs, and that it was rather monochrome and depressing in its visual design. And as if that's not enough, all that coalesced during the big holiday season when people already have excuses to stop playing and go spend time doing real life things. You get the idea. Was bound to happen sometime.
On another note, last I checked the blue posts, there was a little snippet from GC that said they're not entirely sure if the lockout system was the right call and they're open to reviewing it. We'll see in the coming weeks and months I guess, if there's any substance to those words.
Edited by Zebrimuri on 3/31/2012 4:54 PM PDT
I personally don't think the shared lockouts were a bad idea. Perhaps poorly implemented, but still an improvement over the way it was.
The problem lies in trying to balance between two different raid sizes, which they've never been able to do, especially since both began to "count" for progression. 25s excelled in tier 11 because lockouts were now shared and 10s were arguably more difficult on heroic. This began to reverse in tier 12 and by tier 13 it just became an unbalanced joke while most of the world dropped to 10, stacked legendaries, and giggled. You can literally 3-lift Heroic Spine in 10 man now.
Sticking to a single size (i.e., 15) for normal/heroic raids would solve most of these issues and would better fit the evolution of the game. They could easily leave 25s to LFR for inclusiveness.
For us it wasn't even the difficulty of recruiting. We cleared DS normal 25 the first week it was out. I think we all kind of looked at each other and said "what's the point of this". Few weeks later just called it quits. Out of a roster of 30 I would say at most 5 have been online in the last month. We play alot of other games together but wow just lost it's luster. I do like the way mists appears to be shaping up though. On the plus side I am now guild master. Selling Slane Baanrit pst offer!
Speaking for myself here. Not sure how many in TWC share the way I look at this, if any.
DS normal felt pretty stupid to me too. Then again, that's kind of the standard for this whole normal/heroic system. We're now forced to kill a big all-important baddie like Deathwing on an underwhelming and unsatisfying normal mode before we can test our mettle against the "real" and epic version of the fight. And no matter how good that heroic mode may be, the fact that we all saw and killed that boss once before detracts from the satisfaction of killing the heroic encounter, because the kill isn't as "new" as it should be.
That said, having gotten the Madness heroic kill, I have a hard time telling myself that it was all a waste of my time. It certainly felt like it while I was doing it, but I did it anyways because of promises and commitments made to this guild and the friends in it. Now though, all that feels justified for more than just a sense of duty.
Plus, having been in TWC since mid-BT and vividly remembering our much more humble (read: terrible) beginnings, it's kinda really really nice to flip open the Guild Feats of Strength page and seeing the [Server First!] achievements for every single tier in the entire expansion. Feels good to be one of the people who made that transformation happen.
So whatever everyone else's individual reasons may be, I'm glad that enough of us stuck around to make this happen.
Edit: On the subject of recruitment...
I'm never going to stop being amazed at how *barren* (insert Barrens joke here) the Horde side is. We had to instigate a substantial population shift between factions just to be able to sustain this raid at this progression level. I wanna eventually find out if we actually managed to alter the ratio by any measurable amount with our recruitment, even if it's small.
Edited by Zebrimuri on 3/31/2012 10:55 PM PDT
The Baron successfully defended the Sultan's bees against a vicious attack from two bears, and became the first man to visit the moon in the process.
Tanking DS10 normal was no challenge in comparison.
Edited by Zebrimuri on 3/31/2012 11:26 PM PDT
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