Unskilled players > CM bronze medal

85 Human Paladin
11570
03/20/2012 01:47 PMPosted by Xiic
There are lots of bad players in good gear. Gear is not hard to obtain. We dont know how the challenge mode dungeons will be tuned. I doubt it will be the same as heroic but with a time restraint.


we've seen how people do in fights where gear int a factor.

oculus drakes?

they only have 3 buttons yet...too hard.
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03/19/2012 07:18 PMPosted by Psynister
Not everyone plays a game does so with the intention of trying to improve themselves. You likely do, but many don't. Blizzard recognizes that fact and would still like to provide content for those not looking to improve themselves, but merely looking for an outlet to waste some time and have a little fun.


I don't buy this one bit. First of all, it's not really different content. It's the same dungeons and bosses you see in heroics. If you don't want to be challenged, don't run challenge modes... You can still see the same content by running heroics. Secondly, they are adding PVE scenarios to do exactly what you are talking about. CM's don't need to cater to casuals.
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85 Orc Shaman
2810
CM's don't need to cater to casuals.


15 bucks buys your way into the developer's heart. Mine doesn't for whatever reason.
Edited by Fennypence on 3/20/2012 9:51 PM PDT
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If it takes a group 2 hours to clear the dungeon just to get the bronze, who cares? More power to them for sticking it out. Instead of worrying about others, how about you just worry about yourself and test your skill level accordingly.


Sorry, but you simply do not understand what is going on here. The point is that it's not going to take anyone 2 hours to clear a challenge mode dungeon because it's not going to take anyone 2 hours to clear the heroics. Challenge mode dungeons won't be any more difficult than the 4.3 heroics which are 30 minute jokes.

I am worried about testing my skill level... the whole point of this thread is that there will be no test of skill in actually killing the bosses... only in trying to do it faster.
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90 Worgen Mage
20200
I'm predicting Challenge Modes will sort of become like the new ZA bear run, as in the rewards will be sold for gold, up to and including the mount reward. Yeah, gear gets normalized, but some players will develop strategies and comps that make it easy after enough repetition.
Edited by Digerati on 3/21/2012 12:59 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Challenge modes will be brutally difficult and for those who want a challenge

*snort*
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90 Goblin Death Knight
8440
03/21/2012 12:58 AMPosted by Digerati
but some players will develop strategies and comps that make it easy after enough repetition.


You predict this? Man, you're really going out on a limb aren't you... lol.

Of course this is what will happen. This is the POINT.
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90 Human Paladin
15910
So much for cm's being tuned much more difficultly than heroics. According to blizz they will be slightly harder than the " 30 minute faceroll" heroics that we saw in wotlk and 4.3. heroics are going back to the casual crowd... I understand the need to do that. They need content they can do easily with a gear progression path.

I just hoped that cm's would be more than just speed runs for the crowd that enjoyed the "difficulty" of cata heroics... I dont know... Scrapping by to beat forgemaster throngus in an undergeared group was a LOT more fun than trying for a bear run in za. I guess its Better than nothing but still disappointing. I dont see why they cant be tuned so that unskilled players get their faces crushed in challenge modes... Why do we need essentially a participation trophy for cm's?


I don't think you really ever understood what Challenge Mode dungeons were meant to be in the first place. They were always designed, from the moment they were launched, to be a time trial mode that can only be done at the bear minimum ilvl needed to enter.

They were never going to be made as a step up from normal Heroics, nor were they ever going to be made super challenging. The challenge in Challenge Dungeons is to try to speed through the place as quickly as possible, using everything at your disposal, to get the best time and compete with a global leader board.

To couple this argument, by sheer logistics alone than the dungeons can't be made to be hair-pulling difficult if they're to incorporate a system where you want to try to get the best time possible. This means that the dungeons must be doable without any wipes, and bosses and trash shouldn't be overly complex as to drag on for more than a few minutes each.

Again: Challenge Modes were announced, from day one, to be the same difficulty Heroics that you run for gear, only with a ilvl limitation and an emphasis on speed clearing. It was your own misunderstanding that lead to your disappointment in them, not Blizzard.
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85 Troll Priest
12725
-snip-
the " 30 minute faceroll" heroics that we saw in wotlk and 4.3. heroics

Not to split hairs, but at no point did WotLK Heroics take 30 minutes. In fact, they often took less than 10.

And you can run all three 4.3 Heroics back to back to back in less than 30 mins.
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90 Night Elf Druid
15390
03/21/2012 11:50 AMPosted by Bladesyphon
Again: Challenge Modes were announced, from day one, to be the same difficulty Heroics that you run for gear, only with a ilvl limitation and an emphasis on speed clearing. It was your own misunderstanding that lead to your disappointment in them, not Blizzard.


The difficulty will entirely depend on what level the gear is normalized to which we won't know until beta i presume, also it will depend on what the timers are set to for each level.

For example if gear is normalized to the point where CC is required on every pull and the timer for gold is set to assume zero wipes then it becomes challenging where as the timer for easier difficulties could be set to assume say 5 wipes.

Anyways we won't know until the beta is out.

And regardless there's no reason for any difficulty to cater to casual players since challenge modes will use normalized gear and won't drop any actual gear.
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So much for cm's being tuned much more difficultly than heroics. According to blizz they will be slightly harder than the " 30 minute faceroll" heroics that we saw in wotlk and 4.3. heroics are going back to the casual crowd... I understand the need to do that. They need content they can do easily with a gear progression path.

I just hoped that cm's would be more than just speed runs for the crowd that enjoyed the "difficulty" of cata heroics... I dont know... Scrapping by to beat forgemaster throngus in an undergeared group was a LOT more fun than trying for a bear run in za. I guess its Better than nothing but still disappointing. I dont see why they cant be tuned so that unskilled players get their faces crushed in challenge modes... Why do we need essentially a participation trophy for cm's?


I don't think you really ever understood what Challenge Mode dungeons were meant to be in the first place. They were always designed, from the moment they were launched, to be a time trial mode that can only be done at the bear minimum ilvl needed to enter.

They were never going to be made as a step up from normal Heroics, nor were they ever going to be made super challenging. The challenge in Challenge Dungeons is to try to speed through the place as quickly as possible, using everything at your disposal, to get the best time and compete with a global leader board.

...

Again: Challenge Modes were announced, from day one, to be the same difficulty Heroics that you run for gear, only with a ilvl limitation and an emphasis on speed clearing. It was your own misunderstanding that lead to your disappointment in them, not Blizzard.


I am entirely aware of how blizzard described them at blizzcon. But the game is still in beta, and things can change. I was referring to was some hints that the design of challenge modes might have progressed from the timed versions of heroics that they announced at blizzcon.
We’ll be offering brutally difficult challenge modes of dungeons for players who thought the Cataclysm heroics were too easy. We’re experimenting with some tricky boss encounters for players who loved the hard-mode Ulduar achievements.


It wasn't definitive, but that did make me hopeful that they would be harder than the heroics.

To couple this argument, by sheer logistics alone than the dungeons can't be made to be hair-pulling difficult if they're to incorporate a system where you want to try to get the best time possible. This means that the dungeons must be doable without any wipes, and bosses and trash shouldn't be overly complex as to drag on for more than a few minutes each.


This is terrible logic. You could easily do timed trials on difficult content. Maybe heroic rag difficult would be too much, but that's at the far, far, far, far, far opposite end of the spectrum from 4.3 heroics. You could make them very hard, but still doable without any wipes as opposed to "you practically have to TRY to wipe" which is how I would describe the 4.3 heroics.
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90 Worgen Mage
20200
but some players will develop strategies and comps that make it easy after enough repetition.


You predict this? Man, you're really going out on a limb aren't you... lol.

Of course this is what will happen. This is the POINT.


My prediction is that it'll be easy enough to be sold like the ZA bear even though it's supposed to be just a few percent per server thing, which is kind of a bold prediction imo =p. That last sentence wasn't much of a prediction, just a means of how sellers will get to that point.
Edited by Digerati on 3/22/2012 1:30 AM PDT
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85 Dwarf Warrior
13030
The big problem I see with rankings, will be much like Fire Mage rankings in World of Logs currently.

The difference between #1 and #2 isn't going to be as much skill as much as it is luck, the tank dodged a lot, so the healer (disc priest, since disc will be the only spec ranking for healers) was able to smite much more, while the mage in the group crit 50x in a row on the boss, so it died 11 seconds faster than the other group.

I'm not usually one to cry about rng, but things like this tend to hurt the idea of "Competition" in pve (and I also am hoping to all hell that competition in this sense doesn't bring out the league of legends bros to ruin gaming even more)
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85 Draenei Hunter
11685
Ideally the gear normalization would be a balance point and could be used to further balance the classes and specs for Challenge Modes only.

Fire mages dominating Challenge Modes? Adjust their gear normalization to bring them in line with the other classes with regard to all factors. The gear shouldn't be built around a budget but rather around balancing efforts that bring all the specs into some theoretical state of equal potential.

Sadly I expect a lot of comp issues and imbalance to exist at first. I think it's going to be critical for the devs to monitor and balance this often or else people will simply become bitter and disillusioned when it's obvious that certain classes or comps dominate.

It's going to be all about whether Blizzard maintains it or lets it fester into a joke.
Edited by Karamok on 3/22/2012 9:44 AM PDT
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55 Dwarf Death Knight
13010
It's going to be impossible to balance all classes for all situations in challenge modes without severely limiting challenge modes to be very very boring and stale right out of the box.

The way they're pushing for a competitive feel is going to make them seem way more unbalanced then they would be if time wasn't the "challenge" but the actual content was.
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85 Draenei Hunter
11685
03/22/2012 10:19 AMPosted by Lostaroll
The way they're pushing for a competitive feel is going to make them seem way more unbalanced then they would be if time wasn't the "challenge" but the actual content was.


No matter the content some specs or comps will work better. Even if you're not trying to beat the clock certain comps will be easier which will be a point of contention.

Must admit it could highlight class imbalance that leads to either more class-to-class animosity or the need for further homogenization. The game is certainly not a format that very well supports head-to-head competition. It's dirt bikes, steamrollers and formula 1 cars competing in the same race.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
16840
Again: Challenge Modes were announced, from day one, to be the same difficulty Heroics that you run for gear, only with a ilvl limitation and an emphasis on speed clearing. It was your own misunderstanding that lead to your disappointment in them, not Blizzard.


A lot of us are here to say, "This isn't what we want". We want a harder instance, not a speed run.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
8800
03/21/2012 11:50 AMPosted by Bladesyphon
Again: Challenge Modes were announced, from day one, to be the same difficulty Heroics that you run for gear, only with a ilvl limitation and an emphasis on speed clearing. It was your own misunderstanding that lead to your disappointment in them, not Blizzard.


And i've been saying since 30min after they were announced that i wasn't interested.Which is not good, since i'm the playerbase they're trying to hit.
Edited by Arianity on 3/22/2012 1:12 PM PDT
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85 Dwarf Warrior
13030
A lot of us are here to say, "This isn't what we want". We want a harder instance, not a speed run.
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