[Feral] Monks counter Ferals

90 Human Priest
9175
and dots are what allow priests/boomkins/warlocks to kill people too, aren't they?


Priests have a lot more than just dots needed to kill people. Plus you have fear to find stealthers.
Boomkins: two dots. That it's it. One is magic the other disease. Need more than one person for that I'm pretty sure. Typhoon as well to put up the distance.
Warlocks: 9 dots? Would take the time I have to kill them with my bleeds and other dps for me to dispell all of them. Plus a portal.

What do ferals have? Bleeds and two stuns, three if a nelf (shadowmeld > pounce). take away the bleeds and we have no reason to have several of our moves. Pounce has a bleed, rake, rip, mangle enhances these. If you take away our bleeds the only thing we have left to keep people from stealthing is faerie fire (rogues can dissipate this). Our bleeds are important. What would be the point of our mastery without bleeds?
shred, mangle, ferocious bite, etc.

shadow priest mastery would also be useless without our dots. the fact that dispels exist doesn't make our dots useless, and it wouldn't do so for ferals either.

the sky is actually not falling.
Edited by Monsignor on 3/19/2012 12:06 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Druid
14035
The difference is this:

Rake takes >3 seconds of energy regeneration to apply. Rip takes ~11-16 seconds of energy regeneration to apply. Vampiric touch and shadow word: pain, on the other hand, each take <1.5 seconds to apply.
Edited by Stenhaldi on 3/19/2012 12:29 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Druid
10670
03/19/2012 12:05 PMPosted by Monsignor
shred

Hits 20% harder if there is a bleed on the target.

03/19/2012 12:05 PMPosted by Monsignor
ferocious bite,

Gains 25% crit chance against bleeding targets.

03/19/2012 12:05 PMPosted by Monsignor
shadow priest mastery would also be useless without our dots. the fact that dispels exist doesn't make our dots useless, and it wouldn't do so for ferals either.

Feral's are very different from SPriests.
For one, Sin and Punishment fears the dispeller of Vampiric Touch for 3 seconds.
For two, you can just recast your DoTs after they are dispelled, so, at worst, you lose 3 GCDs.
As others have stated, a 5pt Rip takes at least 13 seconds to be re-applied, which is less than the 8 second cooldown on the dispell, making it useless. That's 20% of our damage.

And as I wrote earlier, the main problem is that one class and only one class has that ability.
Every healer can dispell magic DoTs, so Blizzard can just (try to) balance SPriest around that.
But as it currently stands, this dispell, that only Monks have, is so strong that we will either be OP against everyone else or close to useless against teams with Monks.
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90 Human Priest
9175
03/19/2012 12:34 PMPosted by Ptarr
shred

Hits 20% harder if there is a bleed on the target.

ferocious bite,

Gains 25% crit chance against bleeding targets.

shadow priest mastery would also be useless without our dots. the fact that dispels exist doesn't make our dots useless, and it wouldn't do so for ferals either.

Feral's are very different from SPriests.
For one, Sin and Punishment fears the dispeller of Vampiric Touch for 3 seconds.
For two, you can just recast your DoTs after they are dispelled, so, at worst, you lose 3 GCDs.
As others have stated, a 5pt Rip takes at least 13 seconds to be re-applied, which is less than the 8 second cooldown on the dispell, making it useless. That's 20% of our damage.

And as I wrote earlier, the main problem is that one class and only one class has that ability.
Every healer can dispell magic DoTs, so Blizzard can just (try to) balance SPriest around that.
But as it currently stands, this dispell, that only Monks have, is so strong that we will either be OP against everyone else or close to useless against teams with Monks.
Priests didn't always have dispel protection you know...

Yes, if this skill makes it to live unchanged, and druid mechanics also make it to live unchanged (without bleed dispel protection of any kind) this would be overpowered. It won't.

Resume chicken-littling
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Priests didn't always have dispel protection you know...

Yes, if this skill makes it to live unchanged, and druid mechanics also make it to live unchanged (without bleed dispel protection of any kind) this would be overpowered. It won't.

Resume chicken-littling


I know that I brought it up originally as a "sky is falling" thread... but really this just needs to get a lot of attention so Blizz has it at least on their radar of things to fix in beta.

Rest assured, when I get into the beta server, my first ticket will be "Detox nullifies Feral damage in PvP" unless something is fixed, and I will post a clone of that ticket every day until something is done.

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing some dispel protection in PvP rather than having undispellable bleeds; something out of Elemental Shaman's book would be cool.

Rip - When dispelled, your energy regeneration is increased by 50% for 16 seconds.
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90 Night Elf Druid
11785
If they introduce that now, it would instantly kill all forms of rated feral PvP.
Ferals are balanced around undispellable bleed damage; also, it takes longer than 8 seconds to set-up a 5pt Rip, so a Monk will be able to dispell every Rip.

Seriously, this ability is extremely problematic.

Either, they balance ferals around them not having Rip (because it gets dispelled).
In that case, we'll be ok, but any team that doesn't have a Monk will get wrecked.
OR, they forget to balance us around that. In that case, each time we'll face a team with a Monk, we'll lose.
Finally, they could drastically lower the power of our bleeds, so that Rip does barely more damage over 15 seconds than FB does instantly. That way, we would stop relying on bleeds in PvP. But it would also drastically change the feel of the class.

Dispelling magic damage is less problematic because every healer can dispell it - the issue arises by having one (and only one) class that can dispell bleeds.
it is indeed extremely problematic, either the bleed removal dispel should be removed from the game all together(we've went 3 expansions and 85 lvls without it so why do we need it now?) or feral needs dispel protection BADLY

remember in wrath when dks didnt have dispel protection on their diseases, YEA same deal here, back then dks flooded forums pleading for some sort of protection on their diseases, in mop itll be the same thing all over again with druids asking for bleed protection. Id be pretty impressed if they solved this issue before the game ships.
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90 Worgen Druid
7185
I think if a monk dispells our rips it should refund our combo points. The refund of our combo points would balance it out since the dispell is an 8sec CD and it is about time we get a free combo point generater. I also think they should make that dispell take a huge chunk out of their resources to prevent spamming.
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90 Tauren Druid
9600
I think something like having mangle or some ability provide a debuff that provides dispel protection for rip would be nice. Like many have said, ferals having no protection for their main 5point finisher that takes time to apply really isn't fair.
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90 Troll Druid
Pie
6545
03/19/2012 10:40 AMPosted by Monsignor
and dots are what allow priests/boomkins/warlocks to kill people too, aren't they?

Does it take you four to six seconds to apply your dot? Can you only apply a "buffed" (Tiger's Fury) dot once every thirty seconds?
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90 Tauren Druid
0
It's just a strange decision. It's even strange from a PvE perspective.
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90 Tauren Druid
8205
Its a big deal because of the fact that rip requires an extremely heavy investment compared to other classes DoTs, we cant just recast it after it gets dispelled.

Unlike warlocks, DK's,and shaman,we also have no way to protect our dots. No UA or whatever it is the other guys have.
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90 Human Paladin
9900
Its a little early to be waving any flags. Either way it goes ferals will surivive. Saying a monk enemy team in arena means the feral team will lose is like saying a team with a warlock will lose to a team with a melee just b/c melee counter them. Although I never thought they would go for a dispel haste buff for ele, so who knows. Any discussion now is just speculation of what MoP MIGHT be like. For all we know ferals could be moving back to a burst class w/ dots
Edited by Keldend on 3/19/2012 8:19 PM PDT
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1 Orc Warrior
0
Here's my question.

I for the most part only play casters (Balance, SPriest, Ele Shaman). Since playing this game, my DoT's have always been dispellable (by pretty much all healers). Now that melee DoT's can be (by only one class mind you) I don't see why this is such a deal-breaker to ferals/warriors/rogues? : /

No I'm not trolling, slinging mud, pro, or anything. Just a discussion.

EDIT: minor spelling error


Several differences...
- ferals rely on bleeds almost exclusively for damage, the entire dps spec (in pve and pvp) is built around bleeds.
- you can reapply dots as you please; rip can't be reapplied that easily. Even if you take the idea of spamming 1-cp rips just to make the opponent waste mana, that requires 65 energy, 2gcds, and 6.5s worth of energy.
- getting back to my first point, this affects feral druids far more than rogues because, from a damage perspective, the only worthwhile finisher for ferals is rip. You'll probably use FB to burst down the target at the end or if you're confident you can build another 5pt rip before the current one expires... but otherwise it's a very underwhelming ability.

I'm not at all opposed to the idea of bleeds being dispellable. But it does mean that one of several things could happen
- blizzard changes feral mechanics away from exclusively relying on bleed effects (which has been the case since at least Burning Crusade)
- blizzard continues with their SOP that spends more time on giving awesome skins to hunter pets than unscrewing druids and does nothing at all; making feral once again a free hk

I long ago gave up on feral being viable in pvp and rolled a rogue alt for that purpose. I'm confident even with this change, that my rogue will still be overpowered. So it was nice to be a little overpowered and see all the whiners and fotm rerolls... but I'm not going to miss them either.
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90 Goblin Shaman
15470
you do realise if they dispel the bleed they can't dispel any other magic effect for the cd

8 seconds may be a little short but you're still choosing whether to make yourself vulnerable to CC or stop damage

now, maybe some dispel protection might be nice but it's not the end of the world yet
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90 Tauren Shaman
13630
What if they change it to dispel 1 bleed instead of all? In this case if you have luck rip will not be dispelled. If there is another bleeding class on that target chances are better.
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85 Troll Druid
3985
not like i can just reapply all my bleeds 8 seconds and expect to do any damage
a lock or spriest can reapply dots just about whenever they feel like, while we have to build combo points and pool energy in order to use ours.


@Draelan and Monsignor, this statement here along with dispell protection is why its different than it is for Spriests and other casters who use dots. The time it takes to build build up enough combo points in PvP especially if you're running low on energy can easily reach close to that 8 second CD detox is supposedly going to have. Ferals damage is based around bleeds especially around our finisher bleed. However, it's not official yet so who knows what will happen, but this current "plan" is really going to crush ferals damage whenever a monk is around.
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85 Troll Druid
3985
03/19/2012 11:38 PMPosted by Paulbathehut
blizzard continues with their SOP that spends more time on giving awesome skins to hunter pets than unscrewing druids and does nothing at all; making feral once again a free hk


This made me laugh because its true.
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shred, mangle, ferocious bite, etc.shadow priest mastery would also be useless without our dots. the fact that dispels exist doesn't make our dots useless, and it wouldn't do so for ferals either.


http://d24w6bsrhbeh9d.cloudfront.net/photo/254177_700b.jpg

Are you stupid? It takes a long time to set up a rip (longer than 8 seconds without berserk and tiger's fury for energy regen). Please, before you say ANYTHING else about ferals, learn the class. If our bleeds are removed, we have MF and IS. I really don't think all ferals will want to pop out of form for those two sh*t dots. You can just got "bam bam bam dotted" and we have to rake>mangle>bear bash>shred>shred>shred/mangle>rip. Not only that, shred is getting the nerf bat and claw is going to be boosted up ahead of it.

Feral's are very different from SPriests.For one, Sin and Punishment fears the dispeller of Vampiric Touch for 3 seconds.For two, you can just recast your DoTs after they are dispelled, so, at worst, you lose 3 GCDs.As others have stated, a 5pt Rip takes at least 13 seconds to be re-applied, which is less than the 8 second cooldown on the dispell, making it useless. That's 20% of our damage.


this.

edit: I checked your mastery. has nothing to do with dots other than the fact that your dots are needed for shadow orbs. even then *dot dispelled* *dot replaced* WTF are you talking about? Check my mastery, 25% damage increase on bleeds. Monk ability therefore renders ferals Razor Claws mastery useless.
Edited by Tylvaen on 3/20/2012 6:27 AM PDT
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90 Worgen Druid
2995
03/19/2012 11:38 PMPosted by Paulbathehut
you can reapply dots as you please


Everyone who's responded to this seems to think casters have unlimited mana. As a SPriest, reapplying your DoT's over and over CHEWS through your mana.
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