[Feral] Monks counter Ferals

85 Tauren Druid
7200


True, however you can choose to stop reapplying those dots and deal direct damage, with only cast/channel times and your resource (mana/rage/etc) limiting your damage.



Except that casting that direct damage isn't creating combo points that allow all those dots to be insta-cast, nor is the caster doing any white damage, and the caster loses all mobility and what little dodge he possesses while casting. It's just such an apples and orange thing that the comparison falls apart.


Again you prove how you know nothing about how to play in PvP please stop posting you are hurting my brain with your stupidity.
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There is so much different about caster dots and feral bleeds they should not even be compared. .


This is the one reasonable thing you have said this entire conversation.
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I'm sorry Lurleen, but you're just wrong. If you honestly think caster DoTs are harder to apply (or more expensive to apply) than feral bleeds then I don't know what to tell you besides that you are in a very small minority that shares that opinion.
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It's not so much about harder or more expensive so much as it's about melee and casters being so different that any comparison is a very apples and oranges thing.
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85 Tauren Druid
7200
04/06/2012 06:24 PMPosted by Lurleen
It's not so much about harder or more expensive so much as it's about melee and casters being so different that any comparison is a very apples and oranges thing.


Trying to back down is pointless you have no high end pvp exp you don't understand how feral or bleeds or caster dots should be applied and how dispels in their current form and in the current BETA build work. Please go back to your LFR and only comment on pve dps as pvp is beyond you.
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No high end...I made High Warlord back in vanilla. Then BC came along and I had to relearn PVP all over again. And have had to learn it all over again each expansion. You don't have anymore experience with high-end Pandaria PVP than I do.
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90 Worgen Druid
15965
I do, and you're wrong.
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It's fine if you don't want to make the comparison

But it's not OK for people to say "well all the other DoTs in the game can be dispelled, why shouldn't bleeds be dispellable"

That argument draws a direct comparison. I agree, they're not the same thing. There is a reason bleeds should not be dispellable, or, if they are (which is seems like they will be), ferals need to be compensated in other areas
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100 Night Elf Druid
12730
04/06/2012 07:15 PMPosted by Lurleen
.I made High Warlord back in vanilla.


Unless it was on another toon, no you didnt. Blizz converted all old classic titles to feats of strength.

Also you havent even completed 100 arena matches on that toon, so again unless you want to pull the "My other toon is Glad 15 years and running hurrrr" card, I would stop if I were you.
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It was as my shadow-priest, actually.
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90 Troll Druid
6515
To me not being a major PVPer it seems the trouble with bleed dispell from what I've read is the major ramp time vs the insta cleanse with no penalty.

I know a few people have suggested having a glyph with Rip being undispellable, but what about having combo points affect rips duration rather than damage (with the damage form 5 point rip being baseline).

This would help multidotting (assuming you can get in range) and would allow a little more sustained damage, it also forces a monk to prioritise when and who to cleanse. I wouldnt think its overpowered as you are still constrained with energy cost and keeping up SR.
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To me not being a major PVPer it seems the trouble with bleed dispell from what I've read is the major ramp time vs the insta cleanse with no penalty.

I know a few people have suggested having a glyph with Rip being undispellable, but what about having combo points affect rips duration rather than damage (with the damage form 5 point rip being baseline).

This would help multidotting (assuming you can get in range) and would allow a little more sustained damage, it also forces a monk to prioritise when and who to cleanse. I wouldnt think its overpowered as you are still constrained with energy cost and keeping up SR.


This is the problem. That's not a bad idea though, although I doubt blizzard would go for it (as I said earlier, they seem to be cutting down on mutlidoting, and DoTs in general in their classic form)
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100 Night Elf Druid
19280
Whats with all these clueless people / trolls ?

You guys realize that the ramp up time for RIP is 10-15 seconds and we have to get 5 combo points on the target. We also have to be in melee range. Rip also happens to be like 25-30% of a feral druid's damage, for PvP it's a lot more since it's hard to stay on a target when rooted , stunned , etc. With rake it can be 50% or more of a feral druid's damage. In MoP feral druids will also have to worry about Savage roar, which lets us hit harder than a wet noodle which can also be dispelled.

You guys on the other hand have instant dots or very fast cast dots. You can cast them from range and if they get dispelled? Big deal you recast them. If you guys don't understand why a feral druid is screwed you are just mentally deficient.
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85 Tauren Druid
7200
I want to make one thing in my opinion clear. I am all for bleeds being able to be dispeled they are the only DoT in the game that doesn't have that, BUT in the current form for monks the dispel is going to crush feral.

Two things need to change in beta now before it goes live and screws us all.

1) rip needs a dispel proctection - I do not believe an immunity is needed that kinda defeats the whole point of making bleeds dispelable. I think either a % of the rip damage remaining hits the target with the bleed or hits the dispeler (I kinda feel that this damage should hit the target with the bleed to where it will hit harder than FB but not the full rip damage). This would cause the enemy monk to have to think about dispeling rip as it stands now they will dispel every rip we put up unless they are afk.

2) savage roar needs to be undispelable - I would rather they leave it as it is in Cata but if bliz really wants to put it back to the older crapier way they need to make it undispelable in pvp. It will already be a pain to have SR and rip up all the time in pvp and with our ST we more or less get a 30% damage nerf which no other class has to run around with some buff that is easily dispeled that alters their damage by so much.

If both of these things do not happen in some form I fear that feral pvp will be lost in Mists. I am sure they will try balancing it at some time in the future but by then most pvp ferals will have stopped playing the game and it wont really matter.
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90 Worgen Druid
10575
And I've played a Shadow-Priest even longer than you've played a Lock. Yes, I can get Shadow-Word Pain and Dev-Plague up more or less effortlessly. But I can't kill anyone before they kill me with just those two dots. Even getting a Vampiric Touch off can be incredibly difficult with all the fear-breaks, stuns, interupts, and silences in this game. Even if I do, I'm not going to kill anyone before they kill me with just dots. I need to get off some Mindblasts and Mindflays, both of which can be stopped by an absurd number of means.

Meanwhile I'm dodging almost nothing. I'm just getting the crap kicked out of me while I wait forever for a chance to get off anything non-instant.

On my Druid, I can dodge, I can jump behind my enemy while applying the hits that will soon allow me to get off those big bleeds. And I'm getting in white hits at worst.

There's a real problem with comparing any melee class to caster-classes. No melee classes depends on bleeds as much as a caster depends on castes, not even Ferals.


I'm willing to bet that I've played my shadow priest to higher ratings than you, with a higher mmr than you, and I can tell you comparing ranged caster dots to melee dots is insane.

I can VampT/SW:P on 3 different targets and keep them rolling with ease. My lock partner can do even more than that. All it takes is a little juke here and there.

There is no possible way for a feral to do anything of that sort. Outside of berserk, we just don't have the energy regen to dot 3 targets with anything more than a Rake. It takes 8 (with cd's going) to 12ish (normal) seconds for us to apply one rake. It takes my priest and my lock 1.5 seconds to apply UA/VT, with much better mana regen than a feral has energy regen.
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100 Night Elf Druid
19280
Honestly if RIP is dispelled it should probably just be taken off the combo point list and just made an ability you can spam similar to rake and other DoTs that can be dispelled.
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85 Tauren Druid
4760
04/07/2012 10:50 AMPosted by Nightsbane
Honestly if RIP is dispelled it should probably just be taken off the combo point list and just made an ability you can spam similar to rake and other DoTs that can be dispelled.

I like that idea, but then you have to worry about making rake worthless to hit, or vice versa.

Honestly, if they would enrich our combo builders/spenders, a lot of this wouldn't be such a big deal.

Ferals: 5 combo generators / 4 combo spenders
Rogues: 7 combo generators / 8 combo spenders
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90 Troll Druid
11620
What if your 5cp Rip being dispelled caused "Blood Frenzy" -- Your next Ferocious Bite was a guaranteed critical and had the power of 5cp active. And in addition applied Rake (generates combo points). Consumes all active combo points.

Just an idea, feel free to rip it apart.
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85 Tauren Druid
4760
What if your 5cp Rip being dispelled caused "Blood Frenzy" -- Your next Ferocious Bite was a guaranteed critical and had the power of 5cp active. And in addition applied Rake (generates combo points). Consumes all active combo points.

Just an idea, feel free to rip it apart.

Yeah that would be nice, especially because you can build it with one combo point (probably a mangle) and pool/already have high energy for the extra damage. But every 8 seconds of that if the monk keeps doing it? Can blood frenzy be soothed off?

I would be happy with a reset on Tiger's Fury.
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