Glyph of Demon Hunting (warlock tanks)?

90 Gnome Warlock
10335
Hey guys.. So I got into the MoP Beta and was playing my "warlock tank" yesterday. Now there are a few things I can't comment on because I couldn't get an actual group together since everyone was too busy with their target dummies >.<

Basically I was in demo form permenantly.. you can see my gear level by looking at me but on this toon, i had 71K armor, and 170K HP.. I used the talent to sacc your pet for 15% HP and damage and I had 184K HP. With my mastery, and the glyph for reduced damage it said i took 51% reduced damage.

Demon Soul (our current cooldown with a per-pet basis) is now per-spec.. and the demo spec gives flat +30 mastery for 20 seconds every 20 minutes. I would pop this and have 117% reduced damage taken. I glyphed my healthstone to do 40% of my max health over 10 seconds

(side note.. healthstones now have 3 charges like mana gems for mages and do 20% of your health by default). The twilight ward transition spell isn't really that great of a mitigation because you have to channel it unfortunately but I could good in a pinch..

Since wands were removed from caster classes, the demo form auto-attack (which you can still use at slight range) is basically throwing shadowbolts with both hands.. it looks awesome! I have 4 AoE abilites, and curses turn into auras.. aura of enfeeblement applies to everyone in 20 yards for 30 seconds, doing reduced physical damage by 30% (the same as the curse regularly).

Using all of this, I was able to solo heroic stonecore as a tank.. Since addons currently aren't enabled, I wasn't able to see how well I was doing but things died really fast (i don't think I could solo the twilight heroics though).

ONly problem I could see is that none of the spells have tooldowns that say "generate high threat" or anything so im not sure if they just haven't added that or what since no one will let me tank for them :'(Our abilites:

Demon slash - does 30K damage for me (approx).. no cooldown, just the GCD.. generates fury

Soulshatter - now a taunt with an 8 second cooldown

Corruption - costs fury to cast, but generates fury per tick. autoattack refreshes this

bane of doom - still the same

2 auras (same as our 2 curses)

hand of gul'dan - this is new.. it's now a charged base spell.. meaning it generates a charge every 15 seconds, with a max of 3 charges so you can use all 3 of just 1-2.. you can instant cast all 3 (with GCD) and it's target like RoF, not your current target. this could be used to get initial aggro on groups and generate more fury. each hit gives the targets a 30% speed debuff that stacks (to 90% movement redux)

Immo aura - our hellfire morphs into this.. it is a HUGE ranged aoe that pulses around us. lasts for 10 seconds, does a TON of damage (like 15K a tick) and doesn't do damage. it does cost 450 fury out of our 1000 but it isn't hard to get fury at all

Shadowflame - this is the same except that instead of attaching to us, it stays on the group and shoots it, but drops it at your target location.

demo leap - just a jump, but still can be used to close the gap or charge in for positioning

then our tank cooldowns.. twilight ward turns into a 30% damage redux with the damage taken doing demo fury instead to 1% of your health but doubling the fury taken every 2 seconds.. it's kinda weird i don't use it. have to channel it but the graphic looks cool. lol

the 50% damage redux

the 50% self heal and 25% +healing (could get a different heal talent). this is 50% of your max health over 20 seconds since we don't have soul harvest anymore.. this is soul harvest but in combat.

immunity to damage for 10 seconds, then 50% of the damage taken while immune is done to you over 10 seconds or something like that, not really looking at the abilites at the moment, just recalling from last night.Like i said i was able to solo stonecore but i couldn't really test out how i hold aggro against say a fury warrior or a fire mage or something.. searing pain is gone :( (they let us tank and take away our high threat ability >.< )

can't queue tank yet.. but i would be interested to see this expanded upon.

sorry for the long post :PPS. Soulstones are now castable and don't have to make an item, with a 10 minute cooldown and a glyph to make it 100% like druid rez!! woohoo!! :D
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85 Worgen Warlock
9685
yes yes yes!
I love my Warlock so so much!
I already feel sorry for those who will have to deal with me as a tank! Muhahahaha!
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87 Worgen Priest
5100
Warlocks won't be viable tanks at low levels even if they are viable at higher higher levels because several core tanking talents are missing at low levels. All early level tanks have access to a Threat Modifer, a Taunt, Vengeance, and a Damage Reduction Cooldown. Warriors, Paladins ands and Druid will all have these four abilities by level 18.

For example:
Warriors get Defensive Stance lvl 9; Vengence lvl 10; Taunt at lvl12; Shield Block at lvl 18.

Paladins get Vengeance lvl 10; Righteous Fury Level 12; Reckoning 15; Divine Shield at lvl 18.

Druids get Bear Form lvl 8; Growl lvl 8; Savage Defense lvl 12; Vengence lvl 16.

These skills plus other low level Spec bonuses make paladins, warriors and druids sufficent tanks at low levels. At best Warlocks will get Voidwalker at lvl 8, Void Walker: Suffering at lvl 15, and Curse of Enfeeblement at lvl 17

Do they have Vengeance? (no)
Do they have a threat modifier? (Apparently not)
Do they have a taunt? (Voildwalker suffering is at level 15 but it's indirect. Soulshatter is level 66)
Do they have a Damage Cooldown? (Sort of they can choose a the Dark Regeneration talent at level 15, and they can spam Curse of Enfeeblement)
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90 Undead Warlock
9255
Hey guys.. So I got into the MoP Beta and was playing my "warlock tank" yesterday. Now there are a few things I can't comment on because I couldn't get an actual group together since everyone was too busy with their target dummies >.<

Basically I was in demo form permenantly.. you can see my gear level by looking at me but on this toon, i had 71K armor, and 170K HP.. I used the talent to sacc your pet for 15% HP and damage and I had 184K HP. With my mastery, and the glyph for reduced damage it said i took 51% reduced damage.

Demon Soul (our current cooldown with a per-pet basis) is now per-spec.. and the demo spec gives flat +30 mastery for 20 seconds every 20 minutes. I would pop this and have 117% reduced damage taken. I glyphed my healthstone to do 40% of my max health over 10 seconds

(side note.. healthstones now have 3 charges like mana gems for mages and do 20% of your health by default). The twilight ward transition spell isn't really that great of a mitigation because you have to channel it unfortunately but I could good in a pinch..

Since wands were removed from caster classes, the demo form auto-attack (which you can still use at slight range) is basically throwing shadowbolts with both hands.. it looks awesome! I have 4 AoE abilites, and curses turn into auras.. aura of enfeeblement applies to everyone in 20 yards for 30 seconds, doing reduced physical damage by 30% (the same as the curse regularly).

Using all of this, I was able to solo heroic stonecore as a tank.. Since addons currently aren't enabled, I wasn't able to see how well I was doing but things died really fast (i don't think I could solo the twilight heroics though).

ONly problem I could see is that none of the spells have tooldowns that say "generate high threat" or anything so im not sure if they just haven't added that or what since no one will let me tank for them :'(Our abilites:

Demon slash - does 30K damage for me (approx).. no cooldown, just the GCD.. generates fury

Soulshatter - now a taunt with an 8 second cooldown

Corruption - costs fury to cast, but generates fury per tick. autoattack refreshes this

bane of doom - still the same

2 auras (same as our 2 curses)

hand of gul'dan - this is new.. it's now a charged base spell.. meaning it generates a charge every 15 seconds, with a max of 3 charges so you can use all 3 of just 1-2.. you can instant cast all 3 (with GCD) and it's target like RoF, not your current target. this could be used to get initial aggro on groups and generate more fury. each hit gives the targets a 30% speed debuff that stacks (to 90% movement redux)

Immo aura - our hellfire morphs into this.. it is a HUGE ranged aoe that pulses around us. lasts for 10 seconds, does a TON of damage (like 15K a tick) and doesn't do damage. it does cost 450 fury out of our 1000 but it isn't hard to get fury at all

Shadowflame - this is the same except that instead of attaching to us, it stays on the group and shoots it, but drops it at your target location.

demo leap - just a jump, but still can be used to close the gap or charge in for positioning

then our tank cooldowns.. twilight ward turns into a 30% damage redux with the damage taken doing demo fury instead to 1% of your health but doubling the fury taken every 2 seconds.. it's kinda weird i don't use it. have to channel it but the graphic looks cool. lol

the 50% damage redux

the 50% self heal and 25% +healing (could get a different heal talent). this is 50% of your max health over 20 seconds since we don't have soul harvest anymore.. this is soul harvest but in combat.

immunity to damage for 10 seconds, then 50% of the damage taken while immune is done to you over 10 seconds or something like that, not really looking at the abilites at the moment, just recalling from last night.Like i said i was able to solo stonecore but i couldn't really test out how i hold aggro against say a fury warrior or a fire mage or something.. searing pain is gone :( (they let us tank and take away our high threat ability >.< )

can't queue tank yet.. but i would be interested to see this expanded upon.

sorry for the long post :PPS. Soulstones are now castable and don't have to make an item, with a 10 minute cooldown and a glyph to make it 100% like druid rez!! woohoo!! :D


Thanks for the info. Any other info about Demon Tanking is much appreciated. : )
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90 Undead Warlock
9255
Warlocks won't be viable tanks at low levels even if they are viable at higher higher levels because several core tanking talents are missing at low levels. All early level tanks have access to a Threat Modifer, a Taunt, Vengeance, and a Damage Reduction Cooldown. Warriors, Paladins ands and Druid will all have these four abilities by level 18.

For example:
Warriors get Defensive Stance lvl 9; Vengence lvl 10; Taunt at lvl12; Shield Block at lvl 18.

Paladins get Vengeance lvl 10; Righteous Fury Level 12; Reckoning 15; Divine Shield at lvl 18.

Druids get Bear Form lvl 8; Growl lvl 8; Savage Defense lvl 12; Vengence lvl 16.

These skills plus other low level Spec bonuses make paladins, warriors and druids sufficent tanks at low levels. At best Warlocks will get Voidwalker at lvl 8, Void Walker: Suffering at lvl 15, and Curse of Enfeeblement at lvl 17

Do they have Vengeance? (no)
Do they have a threat modifier? (Apparently not)
Do they have a taunt? (Voildwalker suffering is at level 15 but it's indirect. Soulshatter is level 66)
Do they have a Damage Cooldown? (Sort of they can choose a the Dark Regeneration talent at level 15, and they can spam Curse of Enfeeblement)


The 500% Threat modifier is built into the Glyph of Demon Hunting.

You're right about Soulshatter, but it wouldn't take much to move it down to lvl 10/15.

They have several CDs that they can use to mitigate incoming damage(Unending Resolve, Demon Soul, etc). Also, Curse of Enfeeblement becomes Aura of Enfeeblement while in Meta Form, giving a base 30% incoming physical damage reduction and a 30% increase to mob cast time.
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90 Orc Warlock
13870
I would pop this and have 117% reduced damage taken.


Damage reduction is multiplicative, not additive.
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87 Worgen Priest
5100
03/23/2012 07:49 AMPosted by Infernalist
The 500% Threat modifier is built into the Glyph of Demon Hunting.


i want to assume that is true, but is it written in the tooltip? it's not in the ones i have seen
http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/
and it still doesn not address the problem low level tanking. If glyphs still unlock at lvl 25 Demonology will have no 500% threat modifier for 10 levels.

and yes they need to move the taunt down to level 8~15.
I still think some sort of vengeance-like mechanic would be useful.
Edited by Mamaraksha on 3/23/2012 8:02 AM PDT
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90 Undead Warlock
9255
03/23/2012 07:59 AMPosted by Mamaraksha
The 500% Threat modifier is built into the Glyph of Demon Hunting.


i want to assume that is true, but is it written in the tooltip? it's not in the ones i have seen
http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/

and yes they need to move the taunt down to level 8~15.
I still think some sort of vengeance-like mechanic would be useful.


It's not in the tooltip, no, but it's been confirmed by trusted sources(guildies in the Beta).

I 'believe' that this is an experiment by Blizz to see how the lock community, and the community as a whole, handles the idea of Demon Tanks. Once they get past the 'experiment' stage, I suspect you'll see Vengeance show up on the tooltip.

Until then, we can only play around with the spec and see what it can do.
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87 Worgen Priest
5100
I 'believe' that this is an experiment by Blizz to see how the lock community, and the community as a whole, handles the idea of Demon Tanks. Once they get past the 'experiment' stage, I suspect you'll see Vengeance show up on the tooltip.
this is my belief as well. I really sincerely hope that the experiment succeeds. I would love to see lock tanks.

Of course, the Talents of Demonologist will need to be shuffled to make them viable while leveling.
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90 Human Warlock
12610
Beginning of Cata I dropped my lock which I had been playing on since the beginning of TBC for Pally and DK, MTing on two different teams. By 4.1 I dropped DK and came back to my lock as my Main because a good team really needed a lock and one of my teams blew up. For MoP I was totally planning on going back to tank for main because I enjoyed tanking so much. I was going to be really sad to put my lock on the shelf again but if this actually makes it through and not a Charlie Brown football moment I told my team they can expect a demon tank.

I really hope Blizz wouldn't have put all this work into this for testing purposes. It would be nice to see some kind of confirmation from them. As to the people who only have negative things to say about this they just can't comprehend that it is something they don't have to do. I also can't see Blizz just standing by not saying something with the forums getting so much attention about this only to say that it was not intended to be a tankable spec. It just doesn't seem like good business practice. As soon as I get my Beta key I will be living on it doing about 80% tanking. Got a few buds enlisted to be grouping up with me.
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85 Human Warlock
6680
I was watching a video on Youtube, and found that there's a spell called "Provocation", which is a baseline taunt, 8 sec cooldown and the same old effects, "but it doesn't work if the target is already attacking you".
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90 Gnome Warlock
10335
I would pop this and have 117% reduced damage taken.


Damage reduction is multiplicative, not additive.


Right, im just telling you what my tooltip was telling me.. I didn't go immune to damage.. But I was being melee'd for 200 damage with this popped.if the 500% threat is built in, that is awesome! it doesn't say it anywhere so I wasn't sure and I couldn't really test it out :(

as for vengence.. i know it gives tanks more damage to keep threat but trust me.. we do a ton of damage in our demo form still even with changing our mastery to do -damage instead of +damage.. we'll probably be behind the damage warlocks in damage obviously but if i can solo bosses, i think our damage is fine.

but yes, having to move soulshatter down to level 10-12 or even 14 would have to happen.. unless their intent is just to make warlocks endgame tanks and DPS at lower levels (probably since i assume we'll want mastery for mitigation and that stat doesn't start until 80, they don't want us tanking and being bad at it low level).

most of our abilites use fury too, only 2 use mana..

one of the abilites i forgot to mention before was felfire got changed in demo form to like.. fel beam (i don't remember the name).. 40 yard range, frontal beam (not cone) that does damage and +6 sec on all corruptions that it hits
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90 Undead Warlock
9255
03/23/2012 08:32 AMPosted by Rosaria
I was watching a video on Youtube, and found that there's a spell called "Provocation", which is a baseline taunt, 8 sec cooldown and the same old effects, "but it doesn't work if the target is already attacking you".


Looked into it. It seems to be baked into the Glyph of Demon Hunting, along with the 500% Thread boost.

Likely to be the standard low-level Taunt for Demon Tanks.
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85 Human Warlock
6680
The Fury Ward is cool. It's a sort of activated block. It prevents 30% incoming damage, I think it keeps you "stunned", and drains Demonic Fury per 1% of the max HP prevented. The DF increases every 2 sec.

I found these on this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3rukBwUhRY

I think Blizz is really serious about it. They made a lot of stuff for it. It's not just one thing, they actually thought about everything that would be necessary. It's awesome. I hope it goes live.
Edited by Rosaria on 3/23/2012 8:48 AM PDT
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87 Worgen Priest
5100
03/23/2012 08:33 AMPosted by Narv
but yes, having to move soulshatter down to level 10-12 or even 14 would have to happen.. unless their intent is just to make warlocks endgame tanks and DPS at lower levels (probably since i assume we'll want mastery for mitigation and that stat doesn't start until 80, they don't want us tanking and being bad at it low level).
All tanks want Mastery but don't need it until level 80. Theoretically one would expect that a Demo-tank would have sufficient skills to tank up through Wrath without mastery just like all the other tanks.

Though i admit that mastery seems to be central to demo-tank mitigation, whereas DKs, Paladins and warriors have access to parry and dodge and Druids have acces to dodge and dodge-via-agility long before any of them have access to mastery (even if they can't stack those stats per se in vanilla and bc content).

Nevertheless dodge and parry play very little role in low level tanking. And they all make viable tanks while leveling.
Edited by Mamaraksha on 3/23/2012 8:58 AM PDT
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90 Human Warlock
15395
03/23/2012 08:56 AMPosted by Mamaraksha
but yes, having to move soulshatter down to level 10-12 or even 14 would have to happen.. unless their intent is just to make warlocks endgame tanks and DPS at lower levels (probably since i assume we'll want mastery for mitigation and that stat doesn't start until 80, they don't want us tanking and being bad at it low level).
All tanks want Mastery but don't need it until level 80. Theoretically one would expect that a Demo-tank would have sufficient skills to tank up through Wrath without mastery just like all the other tanks.

Though i admit that mastery seems to be central to demo-tank mitigation, whereas DKs, Paladins and warriors have access to parry and dodge and Druids have acces to dodge and dodge-via-agility long before any of them have access to mastery (even if they can't stack those stats per se in vanilla and bc content).

Nevertheless dodge and parry play very little role in low level tanking. And they all make viable tanks while leveling.


Well, who's not to say a warlock can't reforge all their Crit/Haste into dodge/parry? :P
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89 Orc Warlock
5090
TL:DR ------ I want to be a Tank with Voidlord as my permanent pocket tank pet.

I've been looking over the Warlock talents with an view toward Tank utlity and i hope that for certain tiers multiple options will be viable to Demo-tanks.

As it stands Grimoire of Sacrifice appears to me to be more favorable over Grimoire of Supremacy because the player's personal HP is enlarged and this in turn increases the value of Dark Regeneration and Sacrificial Pact (self cast).

However with Grimoire of Sacrifice, Soul Link becomes non-viable, Sacrificial Pact requires sacrificing one's own health and we also lose Voidwalker: Sacrifice and Voidwalker:Suffering.

As an Orc i would prefer to always have my demon pet active because of the Orc racial bonus, so i would tend to prefer either Grimoire of Supremacy or Grimoire of Service. And for tanking purposes i would probably take Grimoire of Supremacy to use the Voil Lord as my demon pet on most occasions.

With Grimoire of Supremacy i would get to choose between Soul Link, Sacrificial Pact and Dark Bargain farely evenly (as Soul Link would stay on the table and the damage of Sacrifical Pact would be safer).

Glyph of Demonic Training (Voidwalker) would make Soul link and Sacrifical Pact both much stronger.

We could benefit from Voildwalker: Consume Shadows, and Glyph of Health Funnel to keep our VW at full health.
Edited by Erinnys on 3/23/2012 9:27 AM PDT
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87 Worgen Priest
5100
03/23/2012 09:07 AMPosted by Sasofrass
Well, who's not to say a warlock can't reforge all their Crit/Haste into dodge/parry? :P


oh well, yes there is reforging, but i was really discussing the role of secondary stats while leveling. Reforging can only be done after level 80 on ilvl items above a certain threshold.

Narv was saying that Demo-tanks might only be end game tanks because they rely on mastery. I said mastery is not really necessary before level 80. That Tanks can use dodge and parry at low levels but don't really need to.

I suppose that at higher levels, Demo tanks will reforge all their crit and haste into Mastery and dodge the same way that Bear Tanks do. If Demonic slash and their auto-attacks are magical attacks and not a melee attacks they won't need expertise either, and if they don't have the ability to parry (like bear tanks don't parry) they won't reforge into parry either.
Edited by Mamaraksha on 3/23/2012 9:30 AM PDT
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90 Human Warlock
15395
03/23/2012 09:23 AMPosted by Mamaraksha
Well, who's not to say a warlock can't reforge all their Crit/Haste into dodge/parry? :P


oh well, yes there is reforging, but i was really discussing the role of secondary stats while leveling. Reforging can only be done after level 80 on ilvl items above a certain threshold.

Infernalist was saying that Demo-tanks might only be end game tanks because they rely on mastery. I said mastery is not really necessary before level 80. That Tanks can use dodge and parry at low levels but don't really need to.

I suppose that at higher levels, Demo tanks will reforge all their crit and haste into Mastery and dodge the same way that Bear Tanks do. If Demonic slash and their auto-attacks are magical attacks and not a melee attacks they won't need expertise either, and if they don't have the ability to parry (like bear tanks don't parry) they won't reforge into parry either.


Well, also because of the 600% armor contribution, in metamorphosis I believe they would have the most armor. I think this would be plenty, at least for maybe level 1-60. Above then, I would not really trust a warlock tanking until they get their mastery.
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87 Worgen Priest
5100
03/23/2012 09:29 AMPosted by Sasofrass
Well, also because of the 600% armor contribution, in metamorphosis I believe they would have the most armor. I think this would be plenty, at least for maybe level 1-60. Above then, I would not really trust a warlock tanking until they get their mastery
yeah it's a bit of a donut hole in Demo Tank mitigation. 1-59 and 80-90 seem to be fin. but 60-79....?
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