Topic
The Alliance and Thrall.
Why couldn't this have happened back in the Cold War barring nukes?
It's not an Alliance victory. Since the Horde will be participating in this exactly like the Alliance is it'll be a Horde victory as well. It's no more an Alliance victory than Dragon Soul ended in an Alliance victory.
Ashenvale isn't far away, and this would be a point in time where the Horde is consumed by a civil war. You know what happens in real life when a nation collapses in the middle of a war? That nation falls to the people they were at war with. But I'm not even advocating the Alliance capture Orgrimmar. I'm advocating they leave of their own accord on their own terms, not get chased away with their tails between their legs.
Sorry, but why is a peace agreement out of the question aside from your apparent Blood Elf fanboyism? |
Are you saying that saving the world was not an Alliance victory? Not when the inhabitants of that nation are twice your size. |
|
Edited by Vyrin on 3/28/12 11:32 AM (PDT)
Only in the sense that the Alliance is included in the groups that had an interest in seeing Deathwing killed, ie "Everyone not aligned with the Old Gods." And in this case, even that would be nullified if immediately after Garrosh is killed the Alliance suffers a devastating military defeat as they're expelled from Kalimdor. It'd be like if the Alliance version of Dragon Soul ended with Thrall and the Dragon Aspects turning the Dragon Soul on the Alliance raid and forcing them to run for the exit before Thrall wipes the raid.
Yeah man, we've seen in Warcraft history and in Real Life history that the side in war that has the larger soldiers on average is always the winner. Did you read what you typed? |
Well.... The Alliance had no part in killing Deathwing. So... no, not really. It's basically the same here. The Alliance aren't seiging Orgrimmar, we're helping the Horde oust their own leader. That's nothing to brag about. |
I'd say it wasn't, it was a Victory for Thrall and the Aspects, no one else mattered. |
This doesn't stop them from being imprisoned if the humans are victorious... it makes it -harder- sure, but it's hardly impossible. |
And yet that didn't stop the Humans from mopping the floor with them in the Second War when the exact same thing happened. |
Having something happen before doesn't increase the possibilities of it happening again, it just means it's possible. I still don't see why you're not content with killing the warchief, I'd personally love going into Stormwind to kill Varian and then take off. And don't tell me that killing Garrosh will help the Horde, unless he is corrupted by the old gods I'd love to have a warchief that will do anything to win. |
You have to remember that the only reason that happened was because of the Horde's in-fighting. At that point, they likely thinned out their own ranks badly enough the Alliance overwhelmed them. |
History repeats itself. This is one of the constants of civilization. Besides, it's still proof that "hurr durr Orcs are bigger" doesn't mean that they're suddenly an unstoppable force even in the midst of a civil war.
I'm perfectly content with killing Garrosh. I approve of this development 100%. But it's still not some grand Alliance victory, because the Horde has the same objective as the Alliance in the end. It absolutely will help the Horde in the end because the Horde will be doing this raid just like the Alliance will. And to suggest that the Alliance should somehow "pay" for being able to participate by getting trashed by the Horde immediately afterward is attributing much more value to this in the eyes of the Alliance than actually exists. |
I don't think you see the point. We don't get to just walk in and finally show some dominance over the Horde. Saying that we're laying seige to Orgrimmar is misleading because the Horde is helping us do it! We're not beating the Horde, because once again, the Alliance can't do a damn thing on their own. |
|
Being stronger, or more numerous, is no guarantee of victory. Discipline is far more important.
|
|
The Alliance killing Garrosh (with the Horde's help/permission) isn't like the Horde killing Varian. It would be like the Horde killing Onyxia as Katrana Prestor. (Again!)
|
It would be like the horde killing Onyxia as Katrana Prestor being alliance aligned, not being a dragon, and beating the crap out of the horde. Also she would have to be queen. |
|
So the basic conclusion is that the siege of Orgrimmar is a bit of a non-issue for the Alliance. It's basically Dragon Soul, Icecrown Citadel, what-have-you. In order to maintain the status quo, either there will be some kind of strange Forsaken-ignoring peace afterward (as I've ranted on that subject enough), or the Alliance will be in Orgrimmar for the simple reason that Garrosh has moved on to becoming a threat that neither side can stand to ignore, and would still be enough to defeat the Alliance after an unimpeded civil war with Thrall.
If it turns out that Garrosh is just -that- super big and bad, I can see the Alliance walking in, taking care of business, then walking out honorably. That would make sense if both sides were cooperating in that matter. Logically it's still a sort of Alliance win, as the Horde suffers on both ends of the equation between losing Garrosh and whomever happens to be loyal to him, and whatever forces fall putting him down. |
|
I'll just have to say that if you're looking to the Siege of Orgrimmar as a huge Alliance victory, you're getting your hopes up over the wrong thing. It was never stated that we're going in to Orgrimmar to finally end the Horde - Metzen made it clear from the get-go we're going to to end Garrosh and Garrosh supporters after radical changes in MOP.
If you want to get hyped up for possible Alliance victories, look to the general landmass of Pandaria. Who knows how many victories we will gain there, who knows how well we will do. And given how desperate for victory they want to make Garrosh seem, I'd like to subscribe to the idea that we handily win Pandaria as MOP progresses, making Garrosh desperate for a win for fear that the Horde will become beholden to the Alliance again. So really, stop looking to the Siege of Orgrimmar as our shining moment of badassery against the Horde in general. It's not. It never was. Our involvement in it is to show how Varian is becoming more like Anduin Lothar. |
|
Unless the Alliance loses much more men in the siege of Orgrimmar than the Horde does, the Alliance will come off better.
After all, the Horde will have to rebuild Orgrimmar once the siege is over; the Alliance won't have to rebuild any of their major capitals. They may have to rebuild Theramore, but Theramore is considerably smaller than Orgrimmar and therefore easier to rebuild. |
Except Stormwind, which still isn't fixed. |
|
Edited by Gibbons on 3/28/12 3:37 PM (PDT)
Stormwind isn't being besieged, so the only damage that needs repairing there is what Deathwing caused.
Orgrimmar was also damaged by Deathwing, and it will be damaged further in the siege. Besides, for all we know the repairs to Stormwind are already complete. |
