MoP:Shields Still needed for Spell Reflection

90 Human Warrior
14855
I love how these people are trying to justify spell reflect's awfulness by saying it's a Prot ability and shouldn't be accessed by Arms in PVP. Guess what: Spell reflect is a PVP ability. Try using it on a PVE boss sometime, I'll give you a hint, it doesn't work. It neither prevents the damage nor reflects it. Do you know why? Ding, ding, ding, PVP ability.

Since Prot is not our PVP spec (get your flag-carrying nonsense out of here - RBGs are a joke just like arenas are), then clearly Arms has justification for using spell reflect. If the ability is awkward to use for Arms, then it's not working as intended.

All justification for the current iteration for spell reflect goes right out the window, poof! Remove stance and shield requirements or give up on warrior pvp ever being functional, devs. It's that simple.


Not quite how I would have said it but yes, as it stands now Spell Reflect is a PvP only move that is mainly used by Arms warriors.

04/02/2012 05:18 PMPosted by Dietcokes
They are removing stances.
NOOOOOOOOOO


Don't worry. Stances are still there but you just use them for the buffs and not the moves. Battle is single target, Zerker is AoE, and Defensive is... Defensive. In some cases you can sit in Defensive for a good long time when living is more important then DPS.

04/02/2012 12:40 PMPosted by Nekronom
Question for the beta fury wars (Sam et al.) - are you able to wild strike at all with a shield in the OH? Tooltip says its an offhand attack that requires a melee weapon, but I didnt know if there were currently any exceptions. I would imagine that with BT on a 6 sec CD, having to pop on a shield in the absence of an enrage would make fury super boned.


Yes, it stops wild strike and the OH hit from Raging Blow and Whirlwind. I cleared this up in the MoP thread I think.

If umpteen million pages of ret paladin SoT/Gurth cries taught us anything, its that you can't always trust a tooltip, and that hidden rules abound ;)

The reason why I asked is because if a fury warrior cannot wild strike with a shield equipped, then the mass spell reflection talent is iffy from a personal persepctive - you're passively locked in to having a shield for up to 5 seconds (swapping out after 1 reflect is a waste of a talent point) to get the second reflect, while being unable to wild strike, limiting ones self to a single bloodthirst, possibly a half strength raging blow (if you're even enraged), and/or heroic strike - no blood surge useage, no OH melee damage, and rage gen is slightly less then cut in half. Since safeguard doesnt make sense for a dps warrior, that leaves vigilance, which is at least 12 (maybe 18?) seconds of enrage uptime at the cost of taking alot more damage. The impetus of the talent tree design is that no talent feels mandatory, but in this case it may seem that there is no other option for fury warriors, so vigilance may be mandatory by default.


Yep
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85 Orc Warrior
5385
I've never found the stance dance mechanic clunky personally. As long as there wasn't that much instant CC out there it was fairly easy to stance dance zerker rage and for reck or back to battle for op's.

With the advent of instant cc's stance dancing became clunky.

Weapon swapping on the other hand has ALWAYS been an absurdly clunky mechanic. To lose one and not the other is stupid. Weapon swapping suffers a great deal more from server lag than stance dancing simply due to the fact that it also resets your swing timer.

If it HAS to be one or the other get rid of retarded weapon swapping mechanics. At least stance dancing doesn't require macros.
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90 Night Elf Druid
7665
Can anyone in beta elaborate on stance changing:
Do you lose rage?
Does it have its own global cooldown?
How about a weapon swap, does that have a global?

Hoping someone with Beta access can confirm!
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90 Human Warrior
14855
Can anyone in beta elaborate on stance changing:
Do you lose rage?
Does it have its own global cooldown?
How about a weapon swap, does that have a global?

Hoping someone with Beta access can confirm!


I would like to know this as well. lol

I've never found the stance dance mechanic clunky personally. As long as there wasn't that much instant CC out there it was fairly easy to stance dance zerker rage and for reck or back to battle for op's.

With the advent of instant cc's stance dancing became clunky.

Weapon swapping on the other hand has ALWAYS been an absurdly clunky mechanic. To lose one and not the other is stupid. Weapon swapping suffers a great deal more from server lag than stance dancing simply due to the fact that it also resets your swing timer.

If it HAS to be one or the other get rid of retarded weapon swapping mechanics. At least stance dancing doesn't require macros.


Quoted for truth.
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90 Human Warrior
15030
Can anyone in beta elaborate on stance changing:
Do you lose rage?
Does it have its own global cooldown?
How about a weapon swap, does that have a global?

Hoping someone with Beta access can confirm!


Stancing works exactly as it does now. It's an instant and on a separate GCD like heroic strike is, but it still interferes with attacks and can cause ability clipping.

Weapon swapping works just like it does now; it resets your swing timer and causes queued attacks to function wonky. This has been significantly mitigated since they added heroic strike/cleave on a separate GCD (remember /stopmacros before they did this?) but it still exists to a lesser extent.
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90 Tauren Warrior
10060
There's very little left of the "old" warrior - why not keep at least one clunky mechanic around for old time's sake?


Think very hard about what you just said. Then see if you can figure out why you're demonstrably wrong.

As for spell reflect itself, for the love of god get rid of the shield requirement. It's a 30 second cooldown now, just make it a spell DEFLECT or something if you have to like other people have suggested, I don't give a damn about hitting the mage with his own pyroblast, I give a damn about not getting sheeped at a critical moment because my ping can't keep up with me.
Edited by Caargon on 4/3/2012 1:13 PM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Warrior
1845
I love how these people are trying to justify spell reflect's awfulness by saying it's a Prot ability and shouldn't be accessed by Arms in PVP. Guess what: Spell reflect is a PVP ability. Try using it on a PVE boss sometime, I'll give you a hint, it doesn't work. It neither prevents the damage nor reflects it. Do you know why? Ding, ding, ding, PVP ability.

Since Prot is not our PVP spec (get your flag-carrying nonsense out of here - RBGs are a joke just like arenas are), then clearly Arms has justification for using spell reflect. If the ability is awkward to use for Arms, then it's not working as intended.

All justification for the current iteration for spell reflect goes right out the window, poof! Remove stance and shield requirements or give up on warrior pvp ever being functional, devs. It's that simple.


Well. Since you said it's a pvp ability and then threw out all rated pvp I'm going to assume you're willing to say anything to be right.

But I'll use your point against you. Let's take raids out of the equation for PvE since you can just throw out rated pvp for your argument.

Meaning instances. Off the bat I can think of Jaina Proudmoore and the first boss in Hour of Twilight that both have reflectable abilities. I'm sure there are more in the rest of the cata heroics and I know there are about 2 dozen reflectable abilities in WotLK heroics.

SO utilizing your original logic, you still obviously have no idea wtf you are talking about or how a warrior actually plays. Get back on your DK main and stop talking in the big kid room.

BUT. If rated BGs/arenas and raids are in THEN it tips slightly more towards your argument.

However Prot warriors are the finest flag carriers in my opinion and spell reflect is an extremely useful ability for them. And arms warriors are beyond mediocre in rated pvp. So since one spec performs great at it's roll and one... does not. Lets still lean in the favor of the superior spec.

Get out of here.
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90 Night Elf Druid
7665
Thanks for answering my questions about the global cooldowns on stances in beta.

What about the rage though? There's talents that let you maintain rage when you switch stances now, but did something happen to those in the beta?

If I have a full bar or rage and switch to defensive stance do I lose it all now?
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90 Orc Warrior
7235
I didn't read through the entire thread to see if this has been suggested or not, but.. Here's my suggestion.

Make Spell Reflect usable with either a shield OR a weapon equippped.

Give it two effects:

Shield Equipped = Spell is bounced back.
Weapon (only) equipped = Spell is deflected.

What I mean is, with a shield equipped, the spell will hit it's caster (like it does now).

With only a weapon equipped, the spell is knocked away (or smashed by the weapon, if you like). This will only prevent the damage (or the effect), it will not bounce it back.

This would please both crowds imo.

Personally I'm a supporter of the "baseball bat weapon" idea, being able to reflect spells with a weapon, but if people are (theoretically) split 50/50 between the two ideas, this would be my solution.
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90 Human Warrior
15030


Well. Since you said it's a pvp ability and then threw out all rated pvp I'm going to assume you're willing to say anything to be right.


Perhaps you're new. There's these things called battlegrounds. Rated battlegrounds are esports. I detest esports in PVP. Somehow I made Grand Marshal. But I hate PVP, amirite?

But I'll use your point against you. Let's take raids out of the equation for PvE since you can just throw out rated pvp for your argument.

Meaning instances. Off the bat I can think of Jaina Proudmoore and the first boss in Hour of Twilight that both have reflectable abilities. I'm sure there are more in the rest of the cata heroics and I know there are about 2 dozen reflectable abilities in WotLK heroics.


And using your logic, hamstring can be used on non-raid mobs, meaning it's a PVE ability? No. Raids are the only PVE content that counts as PVE.

Let me clue you into something: Despite my dislike of rated esports, I don't dismiss it as PVP. I just don't like it. That's your difference.

SO utilizing your original logic, you still obviously have no idea wtf you are talking about or how a warrior actually plays. Get back on your DK main and stop talking in the big kid room.


Says the person with 1k achievement points to the warrior with 12k. Humm!

However Prot warriors are the finest flag carriers in my opinion and spell reflect is an extremely useful ability for them.


It's great for all warriors. Stop trying to claim it as Prot. This is your mistake, trees are not one-hit wonders. I suppose, since you're Prot, that you never use hamstring to pvp? (Battle stance required.) Piercing howl? (Fury tree.) How about Second Wind (Arms)? Oh, and don't even think about using Victory Rush (Fury) in pve or pvp, because, you know, that's only good for one spec.

Get out of here.


I was here first. ;p
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90 Human Warrior
14855
04/03/2012 01:11 PMPosted by Caargon
As for spell reflect itself, for the love of god get rid of the shield requirement. It's a 30 second cooldown now, just make it a spell DEFLECT or something if you have to like other people have suggested, I don't give a damn about hitting the mage with his own pyroblast, I give a damn about not getting sheeped at a critical moment because my ping can't keep up with me.


Yeah, It's becoming more and more of a problem.

I didn't read through the entire thread to see if this has been suggested or not, but.. Here's my suggestion.

Make Spell Reflect usable with either a shield OR a weapon equippped.

Give it two effects:

Shield Equipped = Spell is bounced back.
Weapon (only) equipped = Spell is deflected.

What I mean is, with a shield equipped, the spell will hit it's caster (like it does now).

With only a weapon equipped, the spell is knocked away (or smashed by the weapon, if you like). This will only prevent the damage (or the effect), it will not bounce it back.

This would please both crowds imo.

Personally I'm a supporter of the "baseball bat weapon" idea, being able to reflect spells with a weapon, but if people are (theoretically) split 50/50 between the two ideas, this would be my solution.


I say just remove the requirement completely. But if it where do just deflect without shield I would be happy because I would then have to put some thought into when to use a shield instead of just hoping it works.

04/03/2012 11:44 PMPosted by Caska
It's great for all warriors. Stop trying to claim it as Prot. This is your mistake, trees are not one-hit wonders. I suppose, since you're Prot, that you never use hamstring to pvp? (Battle stance required.) Piercing howl? (Fury tree.) How about Second Wind (Arms)? Oh, and don't even think about using Victory Rush (Fury) in pve or pvp, because, you know, that's only good for one spec.


Your logic... it's bad.. Weapon Swaps =/= Stance Dancing.
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
11115
03/31/2012 08:06 PMPosted by Einchy
They are removing stances. There's very little left of the "old" warrior - why not keep at least one clunky mechanic around for old time's sake? Some warrirors miss that kind of thing, believe it or not.


Because it's clunky? Why keep bad things in the game for old time's sake?

So why not reduce the cooldown and otherwise keep SR as is? It becomes better if you're concerned about balance, but it still rewards good players. One person's clunkiness is another person's skillcap.
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90 Human Warrior
15030


Your logic... it's bad.. Weapon Swaps =/= Stance Dancing.


I was responding and raging, not supporting.
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90 Human Warrior
14855
04/04/2012 12:16 AMPosted by Argument


Because it's clunky? Why keep bad things in the game for old time's sake?

So why not reduce the cooldown and otherwise keep SR as is? It becomes better if you're concerned about balance, but it still rewards good players. One person's clunkiness is another person's skillcap.


Because if it's still clunky the CD can't help it if it fails. And we have pretty much proven that a random chance to fail entirely and needing to type a macro and press a button twice is not skillful at this point. You're not a good player for overcoming that. I mean I could teach a 5 year old to write a macro, doesn't make him skillful.
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90 Human Warrior
14855


Your logic... it's bad.. Weapon Swaps =/= Stance Dancing.


I was responding and raging, not supporting.


Ah.
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90 Tauren Warrior
10060
04/04/2012 12:16 AMPosted by Argument
So why not reduce the cooldown and otherwise keep SR as is? It becomes better if you're concerned about balance, but it still rewards good players. One person's clunkiness is another person's skillcap.


...You're kidding me.

If it didn't require shields, how would we activate it? Press the button, presto.

Clearly this is far less skillful than swiftly switching out a weapon and shield, then activa---oh. Wait. We write a macro for that. So how do we activate it now? That's right. We press the button, only no presto.

Putting what amounts to an extra .5 second delay on an ability doesn't make it more skillful to use.
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90 Human Warrior
14855
04/04/2012 01:16 AMPosted by Caargon
So why not reduce the cooldown and otherwise keep SR as is? It becomes better if you're concerned about balance, but it still rewards good players. One person's clunkiness is another person's skillcap.


...You're kidding me.

If it didn't require shields, how would we activate it? Press the button, presto.

Clearly this is far less skillful than swiftly switching out a weapon and shield, then activa---oh. Wait. We write a macro for that. So how do we activate it now? That's right. We press the button, only no presto.

Putting what amounts to an extra .5 second delay on an ability doesn't make it more skillful to use.


Quoted for truth.
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85 Blood Elf Warrior
1845
Since the game is balanced around your so called "esports" it frankly does not matter if you like them or not.

And though I referenced reflectable abilities I only mentioned bosses not trash packs. You attempt to utilize a straw man argument and I do not appreciate it. I never once made mention of that. Using that logic since the rams in AV do not utilize spell your being silly.

And spell reflect is different from say hamstring because it's more than simply "in" the prot tree. if your arguing that other than current talent specific abilities all abilities are intended to be utilized by every single spec than go ahead. But spell reflect needing a shield inherently implies blizzard intends it for prot warriors and therefore your logic is bunk.

And last you right I am just around 2k achieves. A) Achieves mean nothing and B) Yes this toon is one of 7 85s I have but I have still put many hours into him and played in both pve and pvp in cata. In fact since I do utilize a number of 85s I have found that I better understand each character I have than if I had but one.
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90 Human Warrior
14855
04/04/2012 02:02 AMPosted by Sanlayn
And spell reflect is different from say hamstring because it's more than simply "in" the prot tree. if your arguing that other than current talent specific abilities all abilities are intended to be utilized by every single spec than go ahead. But spell reflect needing a shield inherently implies blizzard intends it for prot warriors and therefore your logic is bunk.


In MoP there are cross Spec trees. In the Warrior tree the is a talent that improves Spell Reflection.

So it is, indeed, not just for prot.
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