Dev Watercooler – MoP Looting Explained

88 Orc Death Knight
0
I have to say that if blizzard continues to destroy this game, I will not be a customer any longer. It is becoming absurd how much they are changing so they can make it easier to get to max level, and changing it because "People get mad at loot situations". Come on Blizzard, get your stuff together. People are going to find ways to get mad at other players over loot, no matter what you do or say to try to change or prevent that. So why change what isn't broken? I like what you did with the whole "Need before greed" thing, but it is getting a little out of hand with the changes you are making. And another thing. If you are going to change the old dungeons so dramatically, make it to where players can set which version of the dungeon they run, so old players like myself can enjoy playing the old content as well as the new, and even new players can experience the challenges and trials that I faced with the old stuff. If you did that I think you would have a much better response to Mists of Pandaria. I know alot of my friends will, should you keep this looting system the same, stop playing on the sole grounds of it just being an inherently bad idea.

Now that -that- is out of my system I feel alot better.
90 Night Elf Priest
10640
My problem is Social Pressure was mentioned a lot, but that was never the issue for me.

I was never pissed as Greg stated, when I lost. I was not pleased that time after time I lost because so many groups went and it became impossible to win anything on any of my characters.

I simply stopped raiding in LFR.

When you go in a LFR group that is composed of friends and guilds who are all rolling need on items to get them for their guildies and friends, you are at the bottom of the heap and the odds are against you.

I would like to see the discussion go to more objective facts and not so much on social pressure and attitudes that are not really appropriate.

I know sometimes a guild would use LFR, all roll need when they could, then trade. Any items that no one needed were processed to help their guild bank. Everyone else had really poor odds of winning. I honestly can't call that fair.

The changes Ghostcrawler mentioned are good ones and I am so glad you are taking these issues to task and changing the looting system.

Thank you much!
Edited by Orionataya on 4/15/2012 7:33 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Priest
10640
I have to say that if blizzard continues to destroy this game, I will not be a customer any longer. It is becoming absurd how much they are changing so they can make it easier to get to max level, and changing it because "People get mad at loot situations". Come on Blizzard, get your stuff together. People are going to find ways to get mad at other players over loot, no matter what you do or say to try to change or prevent that. So why change what isn't broken? I like what you did with the whole "Need before greed" thing, but it is getting a little out of hand with the changes you are making. And another thing. If you are going to change the old dungeons so dramatically, make it to where players can set which version of the dungeon they run, so old players like myself can enjoy playing the old content as well as the new, and even new players can experience the challenges and trials that I faced with the old stuff. If you did that I think you would have a much better response to Mists of Pandaria. I know alot of my friends will, should you keep this looting system the same, stop playing on the sole grounds of it just being an inherently bad idea.

Now that -that- is out of my system I feel alot better.


The game is great, even when groups raised the odds against other players until winning was impossible for those players. I enjoyed it then and will when the changes are made.
90 Night Elf Priest
10640
Only took them half a decade to get this far with the loot system, and yet, it isn't anywhere near enough to keep me playing. Deathwing raid burned my guild bad. To not want to come back to a boss ever after getting your loot is one thing, but not getting any desired loot from a boss for months because "you guys like random loot" is infuriating.

Here is a question Blizz, would you rather a player break for a bit and come back later or frustrate them to the point of losing them forever?


One of the things most of us has wanted for the last 7 years was class appropriate gear. This means gearing up much faster. This is the main reason it took so long to get gear is because when it was dropped it was not for your class.

They are doing everything they can to make the system fair. If you played as long as you say you have then you understand the issues.
90 Blood Elf Rogue
4775
So, if I have read this correctly, and am understanding this correctly, it goes something like this when played out.

I join a raid with my rogue. There may be another rogue or two in the group. Always good for some fun.

I very usually have horrendous gear (small children and no time for raiding will do this to a person) so, when I do raid, I go in the hopes that maybe the other folks in the raid are better off than I am, and that I will actually get something nifty from said experience.

So, hypothetically speaking, the bosses could die, the rogue loot could be given to the other, better geared players, and there is not a thing to be done to change that?

Did I read that correctly?
90 Night Elf Rogue
12750
04/15/2012 07:28 AMPosted by Bladeczar
You will make this an elite guild fraction game which will eventually turn others off. It will make it almost impossible for alts to get decent gear as well since top raiding guilds expect your main toon to be in the raid and not sub alts. Who would run their alts through dungens and lfr just for the rare chance of getting loot? You can only run lfr once each week. There are many times people get nothing and that is expected but at least you get valor.

Yet another iteration of the same short-sighted complaint. Seriously, do these people not even bother to think it through? Let's use a rogue as an example. As a rogue, there are 11 purchasable items on the valor vendor, so without stepping foot into a raid, you could have six 378's and eleven 397's for an avg ilvl of 390. Of course, earning the 16700 valor you'd need for that would take you SEVENTEEN WEEKS of valor-capping (and a minimum of 116 random heroics).

With the new system, at the proposed 8 ilvl upgrade potential, you'd be able to have seventeen 386's (378+8), for an avg ilvl of 386, which isn't too far off the 390 mark. And since we don't know what the valor cost of upgrading is going to be yet, it may take significantly less than seventeen weeks to upgrade all your gear to 386.

But what if, like most people, you decide to do some LFR's during those seventeen weeks? As of this post, we're in week 20 of 4.3, so we're not too far past that seventeen week point, and I'd wager that many players have been able to fully gear their toons with a full set of LFR gear during that time.

There are 21 rogue drops in LFR, spread over 15 different slots. Filling eleven slots with LFR gear would give you eleven 392's and six 386's, which would get you to the same 390 avg ilvl mark. From personal experience, I got 12 pieces of unique LFR gear in 11 weeks, despite the fact that I had valor gear in some slots and thus passed on a decent amount of rogue items. And that doesn't even take into account that some LFR items are 390 instead of 384.

So I, for example, would already have better stats with the new system than with the current system. Of course, there are all sorts of other factors that weigh in, like the fact that, without the gear on valor vendors, boss loot tables would have to be slightly expanded to allow for all slots, like neck, back, etc. So more potential for upgrading LFR gear. And the fact that of the 6 slots not available on the valor vendor, three of them have tier 1 itemization and one has tier 2 itemization makes the ability to upgrade those pieces statistically more valuable than just talking about their ilvl will account for.

(For 397 ilvl, tier 1 [chest, head, legs, MH, OH] is 875 gearscore, tier 2 [shoulders, hands, belt, feet] is 656 gearscore, tier 3 [neck, back, bracer, ring1, ring2, trink1, trink2] is 492 gearscore, and tier 4 [ranged] is 265 gearscore.)

And heaven forbid you should actually step into a normal raid, or get a drop or two from the BH equivalent, or buy a raid-level BoE. Then you'd be able to upgrade those to above raid level ilvl.

So, TL;DR, unless Blizzard sets the upgrade valor cost exorbitantly high, the new system should be as good or better for almost everyone, even if you don't raid.

04/15/2012 07:28 AMPosted by Bladeczar
This game was originally designed to play as an individual or in a guild. You seem to be moving away from that type of play which I believe will cost you subscriptions. WotLK pushed you more into guilds. Cat makes it almost manditory. Seems Mist will now make it manditory.

I LoL'ed at this. I'm not sure how creating 40-man raids were designed to promote individuals as opposed to guilds. And during Wrath, they added the LFD, which allowed players to more easily progress through dungeoning without requiring guildies or friends. And then in Cata, with the implementation of LFR, they made it even easier for the individual to see all content without requiring the help of a guild. And now in MoP, they're trying to make LFR even more individual-friendly, by removing the temptation for people to stack the deck to steal gear for their guildies.

So, um... yeah.

TL;DR: 'lolwut?'


LFR shoulders drop-
Random player 1 was targeted, has 10man shoulders equipped.

But that's not the way the new system works. The game doesn't decide drops before picking winners in the new system. So you're talking about boss dies -> pick winner -> pick loot -> pick other winner. But that person would already have had their own personal chance to win loot already.


04/15/2012 04:19 PMPosted by Scrubtardinc
Good night World of Warcraft, I have just drove the last nail into your coffin.

Ruh roh. 'Scrubtardinc' has just drove the last nail into WoW's coffin!


04/15/2012 07:23 PMPosted by Orionataya
My problem is Social Pressure was mentioned a lot, but that was never the issue for me.

But I think what you're talking about is social pressure, too: the pressure you feel to bring along friends just to compensate for others doing the same. It's like the feeling that you have to be popular just to get a fair chance.


04/15/2012 08:01 PMPosted by Tanaella
So, hypothetically speaking, the bosses could die, the rogue loot could be given to the other, better geared players, and there is not a thing to be done to change that?

You said "the" rogue loot, like the loot was picked first and only one person could get it. But each person has an individual chance to get any piece of spec-appropriate gear. So it could happen that neither of you got it, or one of you got it, or even both of you got it. One person would never get an item "instead" of another, since their chances to win are completely separate.
Edited by Phaelix on 4/15/2012 8:59 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Rogue
12750
The bonus roll is intended to give those players something to do that is hopefully more enjoyable than grinding elementals or Blasted Lands boars
+
We have two major Pandaren factions, the Elders and the Craftsmen. Completing daily quests and scenarios for each group earns you one of two currencies
=
FAIL.

Completing daily quests and scenarios is more enjoyable than grinding elementals or Blasted Lands boars.
=
TRUE.

He didn't say it was going to be enjoyable, nor that it wasn't going to be a grind. He just said that a variety of dailies and scenarios are hopefully better than the same mob-killing grind over and over again.
Edited by Phaelix on 4/15/2012 9:23 PM PDT
OK i think this is a mistake, and ofcourse i have my own solution to solve the loot problem. Here's my suggestion on how to solve loot, it might take a little more work, but i think it solves most problems people have with loot.
4 buttons
NEED - this button is only avaible to those classes that have gear matching the role the quened as. If your a tank, and tank gear drops then you can pick this option.
OS NEED - This option is for anyone that can USE the gear withing their primary gear type (mail for shammys, leather rogues, cloth squishies ete), if nobody hits the NEED for the gear it moves to this section.
GREED/disenchant - Just your general greed section, intentions to use it as Transmorg, or cashloot, have it disenchanted.

If you want to expand the system even further, you can have the game do an Item lvl check on the people's gear basied wether the person rolling has a tank (or whatever class type) item slot of equal or higher quality on them allready and lock them out of the NEED roll.

The only issue with this is that all loot will have to be taged for each class as to who gets the NEED option. Like Viel of Lies, Big kick to sta, and Dodge effect as well, obviously a tank item, there's no reason a DPS should be allowed to roll need. or like just the other day when some stinkin pally i was grouped with stole a AGI trinket from a druid who was making a kitty, when the heck do pallys need AGI?

Any other problems players should be able to handle in game by themselfs, and if people are jerks well thats life. While i understand that people like "epic" you really need to hire some people that graduated with a degree in psychology. Interacting with other humans is now and allways will be more important then being epic. What your doing is just cutting out MORE interaction.
Edited by Frenzic on 4/15/2012 10:13 PM PDT
86 Tauren Paladin
9715
Players who already have the equivalent or better gear then LFR can still be chosen to get a piece of gear that would be useless to them.
Same thing happens now ... ppl roll Need when they don't need it and win...
85 Night Elf Warrior
9250
I think this is all very nice changes to the loot system. I was a big hater of MoP, but everything I hear about and read seems to be awesome stuff! This is the future of World of Warcraft, and I am glad to see it going the way it is. I do believe that a pass option should be employed (possibly a toggle on your character portrait - that simple...) but otherwise I am a huge fan of these changes. Keep up the good work, Blizz! I may come back to you permanently ;) The charms in your bags thing, also is a brilliant idea!!! Finally giving a reward to people who work hard to stay on top of their game, instead of spoon-feeding purples to everyone...PS: AOE LOOTING IS THE S***!!!
90 Night Elf Priest
10640
04/15/2012 08:55 PMPosted by Phaelix
You will make this an elite guild fraction game which will eventually turn others off. It will make it almost impossible for alts to get decent gear as well since top raiding guilds expect your main toon to be in the raid and not sub alts. Who would run their alts through dungens and lfr just for the rare chance of getting loot? You can only run lfr once each week. There are many times people get nothing and that is expected but at least you get valor.

Yet another iteration of the same short-sighted complaint. Seriously, do these people not even bother to think it through? Let's use a rogue as an example. As a rogue, there are 11 purchasable items on the valor vendor, so without stepping foot into a raid, you could have six 378's and eleven 397's for an avg ilvl of 390. Of course, earning the 16700 valor you'd need for that would take you SEVENTEEN WEEKS of valor-capping (and a minimum of 116 random heroics).

With the new system, at the proposed 8 ilvl upgrade potential, you'd be able to have seventeen 386's (378+8), for an avg ilvl of 386, which isn't too far off the 390 mark. And since we don't know what the valor cost of upgrading is going to be yet, it may take significantly less than seventeen weeks to upgrade all your gear to 386.

But what if, like most people, you decide to do some LFR's during those seventeen weeks? As of this post, we're in week 20 of 4.3, so we're not too far past that seventeen week point, and I'd wager that many players have been able to fully gear their toons with a full set of LFR gear during that time.

There are 21 rogue drops in LFR, spread over 15 different slots. Filling eleven slots with LFR gear would give you eleven 392's and six 386's, which would get you to the same 390 avg ilvl mark. From personal experience, I got 12 pieces of unique LFR gear in 11 weeks, despite the fact that I had valor gear in some slots and thus passed on a decent amount of rogue items. And that doesn't even take into account that some LFR items are 390 instead of 384.

So I, for example, would already have better stats with the new system than with the current system. Of course, there are all sorts of other factors that weigh in, like the fact that, without the gear on valor vendors, boss loot tables would have to be slightly expanded to allow for all slots, like neck, back, etc. So more potential for upgrading LFR gear. And the fact that of the 6 slots not available on the valor vendor, three of them have tier 1 itemization and one has tier 2 itemization makes the ability to upgrade those pieces statistically more valuable than just talking about their ilvl will account for.

(For 397 ilvl, tier 1 [chest, head, legs, MH, OH] is 875 gearscore, tier 2 [shoulders, hands, belt, feet] is 656 gearscore, tier 3 [neck, back, bracer, ring1, ring2, trink1, trink2] is 492 gearscore, and tier 4 [ranged] is 265 gearscore.)

And heaven forbid you should actually step into a normal raid, or get a drop or two from the BH equivalent, or buy a raid-level BoE. Then you'd be able to upgrade those to above raid level ilvl.

So, TL;DR, unless Blizzard sets the upgrade valor cost exorbitantly high, the new system should be as good or better for almost everyone, even if you don't raid.

This game was originally designed to play as an individual or in a guild. You seem to be moving away from that type of play which I believe will cost you subscriptions. WotLK pushed you more into guilds. Cat makes it almost manditory. Seems Mist will now make it manditory.

I LoL'ed at this. I'm not sure how creating 40-man raids were designed to promote individuals as opposed to guilds. And during Wrath, they added the LFD, which allowed players to more easily progress through dungeoning without requiring guildies or friends. And then in Cata, with the implementation of LFR, they made it even easier for the individual to see all content without requiring the help of a guild. And now in MoP, they're trying to make LFR even more individual-friendly, by removing the temptation for people to stack the deck to steal gear for their guildies.

So, um... yeah.

TL;DR: 'lolwut?'


LFR shoulders drop-
Random player 1 was targeted, has 10man shoulders equipped.

But that's not the way the new system works. The game doesn't decide drops before picking winners in the new system. So you're talking about boss dies -> pick winner -> pick loot -> pick other winner. But that person would already have had their own personal chance to win loot already.


04/15/2012 04:19 PMPosted by Scrubtardinc
Good night World of Warcraft, I have just drove the last nail into your coffin.

Ruh roh. 'Scrubtardinc' has just drove the last nail into WoW's coffin!


04/15/2012 07:23 PMPosted by Orionataya
My problem is Social Pressure was mentioned a lot, but that was never the issue for me.

But I think what you're talking about is social pressure, too: the pressure you feel to bring along friends just to compensate for others doing the same. It's like the feeling that you have to be popular just to get a fair chance.


04/15/2012 08:01 PMPosted by Tanaella
So, hypothetically speaking, the bosses could die, the rogue loot could be given to the other, better geared players, and there is not a thing to be done to change that?

You said "the" rogue loot, like the loot was picked first and only one person could get it. But each person has an individual chance to get any piece of spec-appropriate gear. So it could happen that neither of you got it, or one of you got it, or even both of you got it. One person would never get an item "instead" of another, since their chances to win are completely separate.

No, they are making it so you will have a better chance of getting loot and it will be for your class specifically.

We all have jobs, school, and kids. So we all have the same concerns.

It is just that the developers are going to the heart of the problems and coming up with solutions.

Getting gear that drops specific to our class means we will gear up faster.

It also evens the odds of winning so groups don't deny other players the right to play alone and win, or in smaller groups a chance to win.
90 Night Elf Rogue
12750
04/16/2012 12:39 AMPosted by Orionataya
Getting gear that drops specific to our class means we will gear up faster.

No, that's impossible to know yet. It entirely depends on the % chance to win, which is ultimately decided and tuned by Blizzard. If the % is high, then we will gear up faster, but if the % is low, then we will gear up more slowly.

But GC stated a desire in the blog to not have gearing rates be too high or low, so I would assume that the % is going to be tuned to keep it relatively the same.

Until MoP raiding is tested and eventually released, however, we can't know what that % is going to be.
40 Draenei Priest
11390
On the Valor issue.

I'm fine with not having tier gear being available for Valor.

I'd prefer the use of valor to be able to upgrade epics, purchase weapons, and still be able purchase blue gear as before, or, if you are so dead set against using any valor for gear, then ensure the reputation grind has something to offer all classes and specs in terms of blue gear, along with dungeon rewards.

Eliminate reputation purples as well.

That way, Purple = Raider = epeen satisfied.

I'm done with the "You're not a raider, you don't deserve purples" baloney, because that's pretty much what this amounts to.
I'm not much of a raider, anyway, I would like to see the content, so maybe I will LFR in the next expac. I haven't done LFR in this one, I'm just not interested.

LFR is going to be relegated to welfare epic status, so you might as well make the gear there, blue, too.

Better yet, make LFR a tougher, soloable instance and award blues, (no more loot disputes.)
85 Worgen Hunter
4060
How do I DPS as prot or blood now if i cant stack str/dps gear?
85 Blood Elf Paladin
2970
Hey i'm just thinking with daily's from the craftsmen should include a item like the charm from the elders. but this charm lets u have chose (your pick) a piece of gear that is dropped from said boss but it is only level 1 and it's stats are crap. The main purpose of this is to use the gear that you get for transmogrification reasons. This in my opinion will help stop people such as my self from having to wait week after week to do a bc raid just for a piece of cool looking gear for a set from a boss that will never drop it. These raids are easy but waiting for 5 weeks just for a staff ect that is only used for visual reasons is very frustrating. Since the items levels and stats will be so bad there is no practical use for the item other then transmogrification it can be used in 85 dungeons and raids. This or something that each week or month lets you chose a piece of gear from a boss in and raid and get it for transmogrification. Such as Boots that drop from a heroic cata or MOP boss that no one will really raid again.
It's just a idea but i think it would be very nice to see in Wow
90 Human Paladin
11990
Who cares about the rest of the looting stuff?
Theyr'e gonna have AOE looting!
Woooooo!
90 Blood Elf Warlock
14875
That's why you take up Enchanting, to disenchant all the loot after you get the first one (well, your loot anyways).
85 Dwarf Paladin
7565
I think this is a great system, but it seems to be totally asinine to say that you can get the same item twice. Isn't that the whole point of making most weapons and rings unique? I mean wtf? I can understand if you win a roll and there is no other option to give except something you already have, but when we have the unique-equiped items system it seems stupid to give players items they already have.

Also, in the post it mentions a fury warrior getting a 2 hander, and I was wondering what if the warrior is singel minded fury? I know it said it doesn't take into account whether or not a player prefers swords or axes, but there is a big difference in play style between single-minded fury and titan's grip (though it is included in the same "spec" in MoP).
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