World of Warcraft®

03/27/2012 02:34 PMPosted by Stkx

In today's blog he said that everyone will individually roll against the game and that their odds of winning will not be impacted by the other players' rolls.

he still said kill>roll>loot he didn't go 25 roll top/everyone loot there has been no fixed terms to this yet as they don't even have raids in the beta yet.... well open beta any way XD

To quote him, he said:

For those looking for more detail, here's what's happening behind the scenes:

• The boss dies.
• Each player has a chance to win loot, independent of the other players.
• For each player who wins loot, the game randomly assigns them a spec-appropriate item from that boss’s loot table. This subset contains only items that the game (meaning the designers in this case) thinks are appropriate for your class and current spec.
• Notice that you aren’t rolling Need or Greed. You don’t have an option to Pass. The game just says “Take this.”
• You can’t trade this item, or that would defeat the purpose of removing the social pressure on groups of strangers. If you don’t want the item, you are free to vendor, delete, or disenchant it.

So let me disprove your assertion that "he didn't go 25 roll top/everyone loot there has been no fixed terms" by contradiction. Let's assume that there is a 4-item limit and only the top rolls win it. If that's the case, this statement is false:

Each player has a chance to win loot, independent of the other players.

Therefore, his statements indicate that there is no arbitrary item limit and that anyone (even everyone) can win loot. For more information on proofs by contradiction please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_contradiction

03/27/2012 02:42 PMPosted by Athenne

As it pertains to off-spec, I'm translating the replies I've seen so far as "What if I want to play as a different spec but don't want to take the same kind of time in gearing my toon as I did for my main spec?" The answer is: tough. The reason you won't be able to get your off-set gear is because you're not filling that role in the raid. If you want that gear, fill that role; if you're not geared enough to fill that role, then craft and run heroics like you're supposed to.

Except that you almost certainly will be able to work the system to get off-spec gear even if you don't have the gear to actually fill that role in LFR yet. Most likely you can queue as DPS and then just dps in a tank/healer spec to get the type of loot you want. If you already have tank/healer gear, then queue as DPS and just do whatever dps you can in your tank/healer gear. If you think you can get carried as more than just a bad dps you could also try queueing as a tank or healer for a faster queue time and then doing an ineffective job once you get in there or just ignoring the role you are supposed to be doing and dps instead.

Ultimately, it seems like people are going to work the system so that they actually get loot for the spec they want, so it would make the experience better for everyone if Blizzard just gives people the options to pick a different "gear spec" from their current "raid spec"

Yeah, I mean, a robber who wants to steal from me is going to get in whether I lock the door or not so I might as well give him the option of the door being locked or unlocked ahead of time. If people are going to cheat the system, you should reward them by giving them exactly what they want.

My aggravation with this issue will greatly subside with the new system since Joe Retadin can't take away my tank gear due to our rolls have nothing to do with each other. It will still bother me, though, if a player can come in and herp-a-derp dps and get tank gear without actually, ya know, having to do anything. Raids are meant to upgrade your current gear, not be the place where you start gearing.

So this individual loot system basically gives each person in the raid their own "loot table" which would be like each individual soloing the boss and hoping something drops?

Secondly could this be expanded to normal raids , etc. if it works this way . Like have an option that raid leader could turn on before everyone goes in to apply this loot system or the old school loot system.

Third will the loot table include mounts and vanity items because for example since it applies to world bosses each world boss drops a mount in MoP so what I'm curious about is let's say there' 40 people in the raid would all 40 have a shot at getting their OWN mounts - for example this may be an insane scenario but lets say all 40 win a mount is that possible even though not likely in any way or at least would multiple people win a mount.

Finally for this loot system the only "disadvantage" would be that you cannot trade the items otherwise it always gives you something you can use and most appropriate for your spec ?

03/27/2012 03:07 PMPosted by Athenne

Works the other way, too. Imagine if all those DPS rolling on tank gear had to queue as tanks to get it. Suddenly tanks, tanks everywhere.

Tanks, tanks everywhere...trying to tank in DPS gear.

I'm not so worried about that, though it might be rough at the beginning when no one has gear, but that would be true if they were tanks anyway, wouldn't it?

Maybe they could make the entry ilvl requirement a bit more tailored to the spec you're queuing as. Equipped AP/SP/etc barriers instead of "have this much spare gear in your bag".

03/27/2012 03:07 PMPosted by Athenne

Works the other way, too. Imagine if all those DPS rolling on tank gear had to queue as tanks to get it. Suddenly tanks, tanks everywhere.

Tanks, tanks everywhere...trying to tank in DPS gear.

Yeah I can imagine a lot of future wipes in LFR raids from all the under-geared or wrong-spec geared tanks or healers trying to get off spec gear. Imagine those healers trying to tank in healing gear or vice versa... ouch.

So let me disprove your assertion that "he didn't go 25 roll top/everyone loot there has been no fixed terms" by contradiction. Let's assume that there is a 4-item limit and only the top rolls win it. If that's the case, this statement is false:

Each player has a chance to win loot, independent of the other players.

Therefore, his statements indicate that there is no arbitrary item limit and that anyone (even everyone) can win loot. For more information on proofs by contradiction please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_contradiction

Unless the system is similar to the one I described back on Page 4, where the system uses a roll 85+ individual roll to be flagged as eligible for loot, then after it does that for everyone it checks the total winners against a set range. And if necessary, wipes the results and starts anew. This concept allows for both statements to remain true, statistically.

03/27/2012 02:59 PMPosted by Kamikisu

Just like we select roles of tank, dps, heals when we sign up to raid... why not have a loot role or spec selection?

I made the same suggestion in an earlier post. I think that's the best way to do it. That way I can continue to meet the system's demand for healers while gearing my DPS spec.

I assume Justice points are being removed in MoP. And I like the valor change, there was too much pressure to grind dungeons due to gear chasing and maxing required. So I love that change and not that it ever made sense to get loot from the vendor.

I don't like the loot change though, since you now have 1 in 25 chance of winning the loot instead of 1 in whatever people have roll bonus. I am on the fence about that but yea..

This is a tough one for me. I raid with a guild on my server as a guest, and as a guest if a piece of gear drops that is main spec for someone else, I dont even think about it. I let the people in the guild gear up and I do my thing on the side to try and still be useful to them. Once their main raiders no longer need that item, THEN I take it.

As it stands at this moment, if I run with them, I could in a way be taking someone elses loot.
I mean it would be mine in Blizz's eyes because I was there, I did my part, and got a higher roll. But to me I just filled a spot for them and got something I wasn't after. I think a 'pass' option would be good for people like me, who are after the experience not the shiny's.

Your loot you won is completely independent of other people's chances to win. Your choice to pass or not would not affect anyone else's chance on winning anything. The amount of loot that drops could be few or could be many depending on who wins. Think of it as everyone 1v1 rolling against the system for something, or anyone who rolls above a certain number wins.

I think everyone needs to remember that this is only being implemented for LFR so far, nothing else. And that the "roll" will be utterly random and independent of factors like damage/healing done, how well you mitigated damage, etc.

Personally? I think this is going to be fun :D I'm excited to try out the new system once it's live.

Unless the system is similar to the one I described back on Page 4, where the system uses a roll 85+ individual roll to be flagged as eligible for loot, then after it does that for everyone it checks the total winners against a set range. And if necessary, wipes the results and starts anew. This concept allows for both statements to remain true, statistically.

Here we go again. Let's assume that the system checks the total winners against the set range and if necessary wipes the result and starts anew. If it did that, this statement would become false:

Each player has a chance to win loot, independent of the other players.

Because other players are now causing your winning roll to be re-evaluated. Therefore, again by contradiction, your statement cannot be true. Everyone is rolling individually. Why do you guys have to make this so complicated?

03/27/2012 03:03 PMPosted by Øverloaded

Here's why: all 25 players may have an equal chance at gear, but not all 25 players can win a piece of gear.

It's extremely unlikely, but not impossible, that all 25 players would each win a piece of gear.

Valor will come primarily from dungeons (including challenge modes) and scenarios. You might earn a little from daily quests and raiding as well, but that won't be as efficient.

If you create a situation where I must grind 5-mans to be a competitive raider, then I will be sorely tempted to simply stop playing. I raid in a very strong 2-night guild for a reason: I like taking on hard mode raids but still having free time. We've cleared everything in a timely manner. Sinestra and Rag before the next tier was out, we are 8/8HM now.

If you gate my gear upgrades that I need for raiding behind grinding anything non-raid, I'm probably done with the game.

I don't like the loot change though, since you now have 1 in 25 chance of winning the loot instead of 1 in whatever people have roll bonus. I am on the fence about that but yea..

Its not a 1 in 25 chance of winning. There's not a set number of loot to distribute. Everyone's chance of winning is independent of other people's "rolls".

From the Blog:

This is why it’s so important to us that the size of the group shouldn’t matter. We don’t want guilds to try to kill a world boss with the smallest number of players necessary in order to maximize loot per player. When everyone has their own chance at loot, why not make the group as large as you can?

[Because other players are now causing your winning roll to be re-evaluated. Therefore, again by contradiction, your statement cannot be true. Everyone is rolling individually. Why do you guys have to make this so complicated?

Because we have faith that there is a system set in place that would prevent situations where exactly 0 loot is distributed upon a boss dying, in which case we'd like to know how the winners are determined in the event everyone in the raid rolls a hidden 1.

03/27/2012 03:09 PMPosted by Ronduwil

Let's assume that there is a 4-item limit and only the top rolls win it.

Blizzard has not stated that there will be any kind of limit.

Blizzard has stated that loot is individual. Other people cannot affect your loot reward in any way.

It is unlikely that there is any sort of an item limit.

So is there a filter involved so I don't constantly win the same piece of gear over and over again?

I don't like the sound of the Valour change. Unless it only affects the primary stats of an item, that'll be a huge hassle reforging to my hit and expertise caps again every time I raise the ilvl of a piece of gear by a tiny amount.

I suppose it won't be too terrible if you code it properly so it doesn't lose its gems and enchants when upgraded, unlike when you upgrade from one item to another on a legendary chain or when we bought heroic items with Firestones in t12.

Can each item only be upgraded once by the 8 or so ilvls, or is it more incremental?