An Argument For Warlock Tanks #5

(Locked)

88 Human Warlock
4170
The first three threads on this subject capped, so here we are.

Dear WoW community: The purpose of this thread is to discuss the possibility of Warlock tanking. As it stands now, there is a glyph on the Beta servers which allows a lock to tank in Demon form. Let it be said that the glyph does need tweaking, but all of the mechanics of a warlock tank are in place, as noted below, so keep reading.

As of now, Ghostcrawler has come out against the idea, claiming that they plan on making the "Demo Tank" an emergency button to hit if your tank dies, rather than a full fledge tank, which this glyph would allow for. You can read his words below.

What we are asking for is for you, dear forum goer, to express your thoughts constructively. If you feel it's a great idea, say so, but explain why. If you think it's a idea from the very bowels of Hades (hey we're warlocks after all) say so - but explain WHY. Theorycrafters are especially welcome here.

If you'd like video of it, here is some I found just super fast:
In End Time: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGgi341JXQo
On target dummies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmbGhRQhrn0&feature=related

Lets keep it civil, positive, and constructive. Also, no making other threads - lets get all our thoughts in one place. It makes it easier on the devs.

Edited by Frylox on 3/30/2012 11:21 AM PDT
88 Human Warlock
4170
EDIT: Ghostcrawler has further elaborated on the design of the Demon Hunting glyph:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4253968049?page=2#25While this addresses the issue of the "emergency" design mentioned by GC in his original post, it still doesn't address just how fleshed out the spec actually is, along with all the other reasons given below. As he said though, it's still early in the beta, so maybe there is hope for the future. I still believe that there is only a small gap between what is on the current beta build, and a viable balanced tanking spec.

ORIGINAL POST: Just recently, the idea of Warlock tanks was shot down by Ghostcrawler on the beta forums:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4253968049#12

Now, there are a couple of problems I have with the reasons given in this quote:

1. A Demo tank in the beta already has the survivability AND tools of a protection paladin. Properly specced, a warlock has access to:
  • Enough damage mitigation to tank. This comes from the Demonic Fury bonus stated in the glyph, which scales with the warlock's gear. The warlock also has 600% more armor (making his or her armor one of the highest out of all the tanks). Warlocks in the beta can currently solo current tier raid bosses. That's not to say such abilities are balanced, but it clearly shows that they do indeed have survivability.
  • A standard taunt (which is a real taunt, it puts you at the top of the aggro table and replaces your threat with whoever was top).
  • A permanent way to stay in Meta and still be able to use abilities, by using Demonic Slash (which is a spammable filler spell) to generate Demonic Fury.
  • A standard tank threat bonus.
  • Melee crit immunity.
  • A cooldown called Fury Ward that sets up a proper mitigation rotation, something that has been stated is an intended goal for all proper tanks in MoP. Demonic Fury is built up using the Demo tank's skills, and then spent on Fury Ward when the time is right.
  • A proper interrupt in the form of Carrion Swarm.
  • Mobility in the form of Demonic Leap.
  • An aura that reduces Physical damage done by trash/adds by 30%, and bosses by 10%, called Aura of Enfeeblement (equivalent to Weakened Blows on bosses).
  • Undending Resolve, a 50% damage reduction cooldown.
  • Dark Soul:Knowledge, a mastery increasing cooldown, which would massively increase the Warlock's mitigation while it's up.
  • A choice between Dark Regeneration and Harvest Life, one of which provides a powerful buff on healing done to the warlock, and another which could be used situationally as a powerful self heal.
  • A choice between Soul Link, Sacrificial Pact, or Dark Bargain. Soul Link would provide even more mitigation for the lock. Sacrificial Pact is the most interesting ability of these three, and would turn the warlock's pet into essentially a Health Battery, providing strong bubbles at the cost of pet health (but would still work without a pet). Dark Bargain would provide a straight bubble for 10 seconds, with the damage received during that time coming slowly afterwards (which would be incredibly powerful in some situations).
  • A choice between Grimoire of Supremacy or Grimoire of Sacrifice. Supremacy would let your demon have even more health, making Sacrificial Pact or Soul Link more useful. Sacrifice would increase your own health, which is amazing for tanks for obvious reasons, but would change the way you would use some of your abilities, like Soul Link and Sacrificial Pact.
  • Archimonde's Vengeance, a passive damage reflection ability, with a powerful active effect the returns even more damage to your enemies. This of course would be incredibly useful for tanking DPS and threat.
  • Synergy with glyphs such as Demon Training, which would increase the health of your Voidwalker/Voidlord (making Sacrificial Pact give even stronger bubbles).
  • It seems to me that Warlocks have actually more tanking tools and cooldowns than Protection Paladins have. I'm not saying that this what needs to make it to live, but it shows that the framework is there to make Warlocks a completely capable tank.

    2. The next point against Warlock tanks is that this glyph would give the Warlock the chance to offtank in an emergency. This logic however is somewhat flawed, as the Warlock would need to give up a significant portion of his damage in order to use the glyph in the first place.
      The glyph removes the damage increasing component of Demonic Fury from the Demo lock's arsenal, nerfing his damage considerably. There is no emergency reglyphing in a boss fight. No Warlock (or raid leader) in his or her right mind would significantly nerf a DPS' damage permanently "just in case" a tank dies on a boss fight. - Addressed by GC. See the EDIT at the start of this post.


    3. The argument above further states that in order to tank, Warlocks should use different gear than their DPS counterparts. I would argue that in some ways, they would.
      A Warlock tank would want Mastery on every piece of gear if at all possible, and their reforging and gemming requirements would be entirely different from a DPS lock. They would also probably find many tanking trinkets to be more preferable over their caster trinket counterparts.


    4. Ghostcrawler states that they would want Warlock tanks to give up DPS for survivability. But they already do.
      The Glyph of Demon Hunting forces warlocks to sacrifice the damage increasing ability of their Demonic Fury, which is already a significant DPS nerf. This number could be tweaked quite a bit until the Warlock is sitting with the other tanks on the DPS charts (by making a "normal" Demo lock's DPS rely more upon his Demonic Fury).


    I believe that's every point that was made against Warlock tanks, and they all have answers that already exist in the beta. All that remains to be done to make Warlocks a true tanking class is a little balance, which is already true of every other spec in the beta.

    I think the best argument however for Warlock tanks is simply the excitement it generated within the community. This was a single possible change that got people extremely excited for MoP, not only to actually play their Warlocks again, but to even roll new ones (as players who never wanted to play a Warlock before). I think it would be a shame to let such a possibility go to waste, when it is just a few minor steps from becoming a reality. As pointed out above, all the pieces are there. With just a nudge of balance, they can come together and make something great in the game. Or, they can be ignored, and almost never be seen on live at all. That would be a big potential loss for the game.

    If you'd like to read more, please see my posts in the previous gigantic Warlock tanking thread that garnered so much excitement:
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4246995300?page=4#79
    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4246995300?page=15#299
    [/quote][/quote]
    88 Human Warlock
    4170
    For those who wish to discuss the issues involved, Tyanisse summed up the current issues/arguments nicely in the last thread: The first two threads capped out. If you're so inclined (or bored at work) you can read them here:

    Part #1: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4253968977
    Part #2: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4254519204?page=1
    Part #3: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4254520108
    Part #4: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4253970854?page=1

    Again, lets keep it civil, positive, and constructive. Also, no making other threads - lets get all our thoughts in one place. It makes it easier on the devs.
    Edited by Frylox on 3/30/2012 11:27 AM PDT
    89 Orc Warlock
    5090
    Not sure if the last thread is capped,

    But we should designate this as the official 5th thread in the series.
    88 Human Warlock
    4170
    yeah, was just getting it ready...other is page 24?

    PLEASE POST ON #4 UNTIL IT IS CAPPED, tyvm :)
    89 Orc Warlock
    5090
    Ok we are capped on the last thread!!!!!

    So to start this one off; discuss the merits and drawbacks of the following options:

    1) Demo-tanking is made into a fourth Spec for Warlocks
    2) Demo-tanking is available to Demonology locks via a glyph
    3) Demonology is completely reformed into a tanking spec, no longer dps.
    85 Troll Warlock
    4480
    Here we are, thread 5. Though do we still have the momentumto make a difference here? We've spoken our points, seen the pros and cons, had logical and not so logical debates but we have yet to see a word since the crab's last blue post. Are we giving the dev team something to think about and remain silent and let this debate move on it's own course, or are our words falling on deaf ears?
    85 Human Warlock
    6680
    03/30/2012 12:33 PMPosted by Erinnys
    1) Demo-tanking is made into a fourth Spec for Warlocks


    No problem at all. It would be even easier. They just dump what they need to on the spec and the other ones won't even realize there's something different.

    03/30/2012 12:33 PMPosted by Erinnys
    2) Demo-tanking is available to Demonology locks via a glyph


    I can only see the glyph as a mechanic that blocks the entire mess that happens with Ferals. It's more than fine. People are just butthurt because it's a glyph and not a "huhuhuhu speeeec!!!". In MoP won't be different, it's just a "press button" and you get the spec, there's no tree anymore. The glyph is but a choice in a different way.

    03/30/2012 12:33 PMPosted by Erinnys
    3) Demonology is completely reformed into a tanking spec, no longer dps.


    Bad idea. No reason to do that. I and a lot of other locks still want to dps as Demo. Druids got a 4th spec. Even considering they already had it, it's still 1 more spec than anyone else, so, the taboo was broken, they can create a new one for us. And maybe on the future, create a few for other classes as well, there's plenty of nice ideas out there.
    85 Night Elf Druid
    1655
    They should make Warlock tanks just based on what it means for the future of gaming in general... How awesomely break the mold, think outside of the box revolution would it be to say... "Ya know, steroid induced Conan look alikes and tattooed bears aren't the only things out there that can take a hit and keep truckin'." ....as already mentioned, the possibilities once you open this Pandora's box are endless and incredible... Far far far and away more exciting than recycling kung fu panda.
    85 Worgen Death Knight
    0
    03/30/2012 12:33 PMPosted by Erinnys
    1) Demo-tanking is made into a fourth Spec for Warlocks


    Con: Other classes will begin to feel they are entitled to a fourth spec as well.
    Pro: Easier to balance.

    03/30/2012 12:33 PMPosted by Erinnys
    2) Demo-tanking is available to Demonology locks via a glyph


    Con: It'll turn Warlock Tanks into a 'niche' role instead of a proper Tank.

    03/30/2012 12:33 PMPosted by Erinnys
    3) Demonology is completely reformed into a tanking spec, no longer dps.


    Con: DPS Demonology Warlocks will never let you live it down. Just look at the Blood DPS community for DKs.
    32 Orc Warlock
    140
    <---this guy wants to be a tank.....fo realz
    90 Blood Elf Warlock
    9195
    A little bit of harvest of their life,

    A little bit of voidwalker by my side.

    A little bit of soul link's all I need,

    A little bit of life tap's all I see.

    A little bit of meta in the sun,

    A little bit of hellfire all night long.

    A little bit of dark regen here I am,

    A little bit of glyph makes me your tank!

    Tank thread number five!

    03/30/2012 12:33 PMPosted by Erinnys
    1) Demo-tanking is made into a fourth Spec for Warlocks


    Wouldn't mind it, but it would either require two specs which are almost identical in terms of theme and skills or the creation of an entirely new set of tools for either tanking or demo DPS.

    03/30/2012 12:33 PMPosted by Erinnys
    2) Demo-tanking is available to Demonology locks via a glyph


    Yes! A totally new idea that adds choices, has no downside I can see, and opens up a whole new realm of possibilities for the game as a whole.

    03/30/2012 12:33 PMPosted by Erinnys
    3) Demonology is completely reformed into a tanking spec, no longer dps.


    Do not want.
    85 Human Warlock
    6680
    03/30/2012 12:39 PMPosted by Leuts
    Con: Other classes will begin to feel they are entitled to a fourth spec as well.


    Problem with this. There's a 4th spec already, for druids. So, either they leave those two druid specs, Feral and Guardian, ridiculously oversimplified because of their old situation, or they are going to improve them, because of the lack of the other one utility, and in the end they will become really four specs. Either way, it's 4. While there was a rule that was supposed to be only 3.

    So, everyone has the right to call for a new one, not demand, but still, it's not a crime to ask for it...
    91 Gnome Warlock
    9385
    I hope we can at least get a response saying they aren't ruling this idea out forever.
    85 Worgen Death Knight
    0
    03/30/2012 12:42 PMPosted by Rosaria
    Con: Other classes will begin to feel they are entitled to a fourth spec as well.


    Problem with this. There's a 4th spec already, for druids. So, either they leave those two druid specs, Feral and Guardian, ridiculously oversimplified because of their old situation, or they are going to improve them, because of the lack of the other one utility, and in the end they will become really four specs. Either way, it's 4. While there was a rule that was supposed to be only 3.

    So, everyone has the right to call for a new one, not demand, but still, it's not a crime to ask for it...


    To be honest the reason Druids are getting a fourth spec is because, as Blizzard openly admitted, they've already HAD four specs. This is just to make them easier to balance as opposed to the current system for them where they are simply changed by a stance dance.
    85 Human Warlock
    6680
    03/30/2012 12:46 PMPosted by Leuts
    To be honest the reason Druids are getting a fourth spec is because, as Blizzard openly admitted, they've already HAD four specs. This is just to make them easier to balance as opposed to the current system for them where they are simply changed by a stance dance.


    That's the thing. Four, not three like all others. Doesn't really matter if they always had or is gonna be given in MoP.
    90 Draenei Mage
    14655
    I was just talking about this on my radio show, why couldnt you make this thread sooner :< I linked them the very first one.
    85 Worgen Death Knight
    0
    03/30/2012 12:48 PMPosted by Rosaria
    To be honest the reason Druids are getting a fourth spec is because, as Blizzard openly admitted, they've already HAD four specs. This is just to make them easier to balance as opposed to the current system for them where they are simply changed by a stance dance.


    That's the thing. Four, not three like all others. Doesn't really matter if they always had or is gonna be given in MoP.


    Well if you want to nitpick DK's had 6 specs back in Wrath. We got nerfed down to 3 and the QQ still hasn't let up.
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