Are you happy now?

100 Human Mage
9210
03/24/2012 08:01 AMPosted by Skytotem
The Alliance has Varian. We don't need Thrall to be our great messiah leader.


This is funny.

Hilarious even.

... There's not much of a difference.


There is a significant difference between Thrall and Varian. While Varian's story was veered off in order to more reflect Thrall's and give the Alliance an Anti-Thrall, Varian has since evolved beyond that unflattering role as a foil to the Horde. He's a character who has shown significant growth and a sincere care for the Alliance, and he hasn't done so in a jarring way that shoves him down the Horde's throats either.

Thus far, there hasn't been any sort of attempt to, 'Make the Horde love Varian,' as there has been to, 'Make the Alliance love Thrall.'

Varian is his own character with a very unique history (up until they decided to make him the Anti-Thrall).
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100 Human Mage
9210
03/24/2012 09:06 AMPosted by Kynrind
So attacking your neighbors to take their land and resources, when your land is in a major drought and they refuse to trade with you and you are positive you need what's theirs isn't evil and justified?


According to the Dictionary definition? There is no good and evil, just what is, 'practical.' So, if your neighbors have plenty, and you have none, and they refuse to even let you attempt to trade somehow in order to obtain some in a practical manner, then your neighbors are being impractical, which wouldn't make sense to a pragmatist.

To the Moral Absolutist, taking what isn't yours, no matter the need or what good it might do, is still bad and wrong.Again, two -very- different cultures/societies in the Horde and the Alliance. You have to try and grasp it from both sides.
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85 Human Paladin
9180
I don't think you understand the Alliance players at all. I've already made a topic on this, but whatever, I'll talk about it again.

Aside from a few exceptions, the Alliance doesn't want what the Horde had in Cata. All we have ever wanted was to be treated fairly, to get a story as good as the Horde's and to be treated with some remote kind of respect. We don't want to exist to push the Horde's plot forward, we want out own identity.

I for one am very worried that MoP will be a reversal of Cata and that we'll be the major focus with the Horde taking a backseat. I don't want the Horde players to go through what we did anymore than I want another expansion of Cata with we Alliance twiddling our thumbs hoping something will happen.

We'll have to wait and see how things play out, but I'm hoping we see a story that has been well written for both factions evenly.
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There is a significant difference between Thrall and Varian. While Varian's story was veered off in order to more reflect Thrall's and give the Alliance an Anti-Thrall, Varian has since evolved beyond that unflattering role as a foil to the Horde. He's a character who has shown significant growth and a sincere care for the Alliance, and he hasn't done so in a jarring way that shoves him down the Horde's throats either.

Thus far, there hasn't been any sort of attempt to, 'Make the Horde love Varian,' as there has been to, 'Make the Alliance love Thrall.'

Varian is his own character with a very unique history (up until they decided to make him the Anti-Thrall).


I agree with this. Varian is not, and probably will never be the sue that Thrall is.
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So I just came back to WoW after taking a few months off for personal reasons and I find that the last raid in MoP will be a raid on Orgrimmar for BOTH factions to kill Garrosh who has become corrupted and the first thing I think of is all the whining on these forums from the Alliance since cata has come out about the "Horde bias" in Blizzard. I mean I don't think there has been a single day that I have looked at the forums since cata has been out and not seen someone complaining about the "Horde bias" and now from the start of this new expansion the Horde is being portrayed as a den of evil monsters under the thumb of a corrupted leader and the Alliance are portrayed as the goodly heroes who save the day. So I just have to ask.

Are you happy now Alliance? Are you going to stop complaining saying there is a Horde bias? Because there never was one

The topic nowadays, is not the Horde bias, but the fact that it's Thrall's world, and we just happen to live in it.
The Alliance will help Thrall AGAIN, to be in the spotlight completing his messianic duty of returning peace to the Horde-Alliance war.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11450
So I just came back to WoW after taking a few months off for personal reasons and I find that the last raid in MoP will be a raid on Orgrimmar for BOTH factions to kill Garrosh who has become corrupted and the first thing I think of is all the whining on these forums from the Alliance since cata has come out about the "Horde bias" in Blizzard. I mean I don't think there has been a single day that I have looked at the forums since cata has been out and not seen someone complaining about the "Horde bias" and now from the start of this new expansion the Horde is being portrayed as a den of evil monsters under the thumb of a corrupted leader and the Alliance are portrayed as the goodly heroes who save the day. So I just have to ask.

Are you happy now Alliance? Are you going to stop complaining saying there is a Horde bias? Because there never was one

The topic nowadays, is not the Horde bias, but the fact that it's Thrall's world, and we just happen to live in it.
The Alliance will help Thrall AGAIN, to be in the spotlight completing his messianic duty of returning peace to the Horde-Alliance war.


And by peace, we mean skirmishes all over the world that no one talks about or even seems to notice. *Stares at Vanilla and BC*
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90 Night Elf Rogue
11450
03/24/2012 09:06 AMPosted by Kynrind
Translation? The Horde does what is necessary and what (at the time) seems like the smart, logical thing to do. If there is a drought, they bring water in (Duh). If there is a shortage of food and lumber, they go where the food and lumber are plentiful (again, DUH). The Horde's leaders weigh the risk and foreseeable consequences over the gains and losses, and in the end, make the practical choice which, in Cataclysm, was to -NOT- starve and die off.


The Horde isn't, 'Evil,' except in the eyes of the Alliance. If -you- think the Horde is being made to look evil, its because you're looking at it from the perspective of the Alliance, not the Horde.


So attacking your neighbors to take their land and resources, when your land is in a major drought and they refuse to trade with you and you are positive you need what's theirs isn't evil and justified?

By ANY standards that is considered an evil act. It's theft at the least and goes downhill from there.


I wouldn't go as far as to say they're evil, the orcs I mean. I think they are selfish and brutal with entitlement issues.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
Long story short, of course no one is happy, Blizzard failed again.

Horde's tired of looking stupid and evil.Alliance is tired of playing failure-second-fiddle to the Horde.
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100 Troll Shaman
5930
03/24/2012 11:17 AMPosted by Kynrind
repeated border and territorial violations

According to Jaina, every agreement Thrall has ever signed has been upheld, so no.

Look, taking something illicitly is theft, I won't contest that. But consider the context behind it:

They're starving because of an unnatural drought and an elemental upheaval which is hitting their already arid conditions harder than anywhere else. On top of that, they've just lost a generation of people to war, notable for being the age group most suited for labour, meaning much of their population is either too young or too old. Then to top it off, their biggest trading partner cuts off all trade, trade routes and hunting rights.

While politically speaking, this is entirely within their right to do so, it effectively condemns an entire people to starvation while the Night Elves still enjoy a veritable cornucopia. The Night Elves held an extremely advantageous position here, but rather than leverage the Horde's unprecedented need for help to their advantage, they just tell them to stuff it and die.

A man whose family is starving goes to the only store in town to buy a loaf of bread. The store's owner could name his price, take all his coin for a single loaf, but instead refuses to sell him anything, so the man steals a bread on the way out.

The man is a thief. He is a criminal. I won't dispute this. But what was he supposed to do? Go home to his family, tell them they're all going to die, but at least he was a model citizen? Kill his wife and kids so that maybe he can make it through the winter with what he has?

The act is illegal, but I'd be hard pressed to call it evil.
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
10140
The Horde Embraces a Pragmatic Philosophy.

What does this mean?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Pragmatism?fromAsk=true&o=100074

noun
1. character or conduct that emphasizes practicality.
2. a philosophical movement or system having various forms, but generally stressing practical consequences as constituting the essential criterion in determining meaning, truth, or value.Translation? The Horde does what is necessary and what (at the time) seems like the smart, logical thing to do. If there is a drought, they bring water in (Duh). If there is a shortage of food and lumber, they go where the food and lumber are plentiful (again, DUH). The Horde's leaders weigh the risk and foreseeable consequences over the gains and losses, and in the end, make the practical choice which, in Cataclysm, was to -NOT- starve and die off.


Sweet Titans! Somebody gets it!

Elenie, you are now officially my favorite Alliance poster.
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100 Human Mage
9210
Kellick, you explain what I mean by describing the Horde as pragmatic. To the Horde, theft in that scenario isn't, 'Evil.' To the Alliance, who are more Moral Absolutists, Theft is, 'Evil,' no matter the excuse for what, 'Good,' it can do.
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90 Human Warlock
9125
According to Jaina, every agreement Thrall has ever signed has been upheld, so no.


So, if the Warsong refused to get out of Ashenvale, Thrall just didn't sign the treaty.

Which isn't exactly a good thing on his part. It basically said "I don't care if its your land, I'm going to steal it because I need it, and that's the way its going to be. Shut up and deal".

So, then when the Night Elves DO set up trade, saving lives on both sides, the Twilight Hammer makes it look like the Horde is just stealing wood in addition to the trade, because why not, they were doing it before?

And...Thrall is supposed to be someone the Alliance likes and is willing to put in power?
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100 Troll Shaman
5930
03/24/2012 11:52 AMPosted by Elenie
Kellick, you explain what I mean by describing the Horde as pragmatic. To the Horde, theft in that scenario isn't, 'Evil.' To the Alliance, who are more Moral Absolutists, Theft is, 'Evil,' no matter the excuse for what, 'Good,' it can do.

The problem with moral absolutism in this scenario might come from this:

Is it evil to let your family die because of your inaction?

You need to distinguish Good and Evil from Lawful and Unlawful, because sometimes, the Good thing to do is Unlawful and doing something entirely Lawful may be Evil.
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90 Human Rogue
10570
Long story short, of course no one is happy, Blizzard failed again.

Horde's tired of looking stupid and evil.Alliance is tired of playing failure-second-fiddle to the Horde.


That's it in a nut shell, I couldn't have put it better myself Sky.
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100 Human Mage
9210
03/24/2012 11:57 AMPosted by Kellick
Kellick, you explain what I mean by describing the Horde as pragmatic. To the Horde, theft in that scenario isn't, 'Evil.' To the Alliance, who are more Moral Absolutists, Theft is, 'Evil,' no matter the excuse for what, 'Good,' it can do.

The problem with moral absolutism in this scenario might come from this:

Is it evil to let your family die because of your inaction?

You need to distinguish Good and Evil from Lawful and Unlawful, because sometimes, the Good thing to do is Unlawful and doing something entirely Lawful may be Evil.


Indeed, Moral Absolutism has its faults, same as Pragmatism has its faults. Neither philosophy is perfect, as neither faction is perfect.

A good example would be the Blood Elves and the High Elves. The Blood Elves took on a pragmatic view and did whatever it took to survive. The High Elves, however, maintained their Moral Absolutist views and refused to do what they viewed as, 'Evil.'

In the end, both factions of the same race continue to exist, but look at the state of each.The High Elves have severely reduced numbers, but under the Alliance they enjoy a wider range of freedoms and the self-satisfaction of being morally upright.

The Blood Elves have a larger population, but they're under the Horde's laws, forced to do things when they might otherwise not want to or be incapable of doing so, and they're suffering the lingering effects of having come -from- a Moral Absolutist culture. Since the return of the Sunwell, they've begun to question themselves.
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100 Troll Shaman
5930
03/24/2012 12:03 PMPosted by Kynrind
I'll contest part of that on the grounds that Splintertree Post and Zoram'gar Outpost were still there, in game and in the books. The orcs still occupied Kaldorei land.

Moot, since this was presumably allowed in some treaty(ies) of some kind.

And the Orcs' past is irrelevant in determining whether their decision to not die is evil. The Orcs were selfish in choosing to use unlawful force in order to preserve themselves from mass starvation, certainly. But then again, so is every mortal species in the world.

Would the Night Elves have allowed themselves to die out were their places reversed? Would any sapient creature willingly choose to die when there was a way to live?
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