MoP and the Scarlet Crusade

85 Night Elf Hunter
5340
03/26/2012 12:27 AMPosted by Altaiea
The problem is, raising undead is known to be evil because it damns the soul, and their use of the plague is most certainly evil. If they were defending against attack - for instance, if the Alliance came to kill them all and retake Lordaeron? - that'd be self-defence. What they are doing now, going on the warpath, equates to murder.


DON'T FORGET THEIR "HUMAN FARM" IN HILLSBRAD

I haven't. I mentioned Hillsbrad being absoloutley awful above - it is. They made an area of it unlivable, even for them, for centuries, started that human farm, and have all those human captives at the spider farm which they are going to subject to unnamed horrors.

Options:
    Attack the Scourge, no one cares. People like that.
    Attack Scarlets. That's sad, but they killed a lot of people. People like that.
    Attack the Forsaken, call down the wrath of the entire bloody Horde, including Silvermoon. Two pronged attack from both sides, resulting in the end of the Argent Crusade.


Which one of these is a dumb idea?

Option B: Station soldiers on the Forsaken front. "We are watching you, and if you step out of line, we're going to tell Garrosh, who wouldn't much care if we deposed Sylvanas and installed a puppet leader."
Reply Quote
This is about the worst argument ever. The Argents ARE NEUTRAL NOT ALLIANCE!!! What do people not get about that? Do you guys honestly think that a small organization like the Argents will go up against the Forsaken and the Horde!?!? The only reason why the Argent Crusade won the War Against the Lich King was because:

A: Alliance and Horde fought in almost every zone against the scourge, not the Argents. Only zone they really fought in was in Zul'Drak and one small part of Icecrown.
B: The Dragon Flights, Dalaran, Alliance, Horde and the Ebon blade all pitched in against the war, the Argents did very little by way of fighting. They only really started fighting once the Alliance and Horde started fighting each other.
C: They skipped over ALL of Icecrown and directly assaulted Icecrown Citadel, where they won because Arthas was dumb and decided to not just kill everyone, including Tirion, instantly.

And the only reason why the Argents are winning now is because their threats are minimal, a weakened Scourge, and a weakened and undead Scarlet Crusade, and kobalds. And yet, they need the random hero to help them clear all of this out. They're in no shape to even attempt to go against the Forsaken forces stationed at Andorhal alone!

So without outside help, the Argent Crusade is nothing more than a little organization just a little bit larger than the Argent Dawn, and they're focusing on removing the remaining Scourge from the Plaguelands and securing their land, and with their size, that will take some time. So do you really think that the Argents are going to go to war against the Forsaken with only some Alliance support, and losing a good amount of their members that are loyal to the horde?

Also, I think it would be better to make a thread for this if you want to debate it instead of hijacking this thread, as the Argents are not the Scralet Crusade.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Warrior
10805
Options:
Attack the Scourge, no one cares. People like that.
Attack Scarlets. That's sad, but they killed a lot of people. People like that.
Attack the Forsaken, call down the wrath of the entire bloody Horde, including Silvermoon. Two pronged attack from both sides, resulting in the end of the Argent Crusade.


--
Let the Forsaken do what they're doing, eventually simply letting the Arathi Highlands fall the same way that Hillsbrad did; with dozens of plague barrels. Then, Wetlands. Eventually, as the Argent Crusade simply stands there, dealing with remnants of a defeated enemy, Forsaken will have taken the entire Eastern Kingdoms using plague.

Not to mention that with each victory, their numbers grow.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
13125
03/26/2012 12:30 AMPosted by Wilano
Option B: Station soldiers on the Forsaken front. "We are watching you, and if you step out of line, we're going to tell Garrosh, who wouldn't much care if we deposed Sylvanas and installed a puppet leader."


Because the Scarlet Crusade is well known for following the rules and working with others?

They attack people on sight, for goodness sake. Besides, you're basically suggesting the Argents enslave the Scarlets against their beliefs. That's simply madness.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Warrior
10805
03/26/2012 12:32 AMPosted by Auramis
Option B: Station soldiers on the Forsaken front. "We are watching you, and if you step out of line, we're going to tell Garrosh, who wouldn't much care if we deposed Sylvanas and installed a puppet leader."


Because the Scarlet Crusade is well known for following the rules and working with others?

They attack people on sight, for goodness sake. Besides, you're basically suggesting the Argents enslave the Scarlets against their beliefs. That's simply madness.


i didn't see anything about scarlets there
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Hunter
5340
03/26/2012 12:30 AMPosted by Vorien
This is about the worst argument ever. The Argents ARE NEUTRAL NOT ALLIANCE!!!

If one of the Alliance races was doing the awful things that the Forsaken were doing now, I'd expect the Argents to step in there, too, especially if they were next-door neighbours.

Because the Scarlet Crusade is well known for following the rules and working with others?

They attack people on sight, for goodness sake. Besides, you're basically suggesting the Argents enslave the Scarlets against their beliefs. That's simply madness.

...what?

No, I'm suggesting that they put soldiers on the Forsaken Front to watch the Forsaken and make sure they don't do anything bad. You know, actually watch them? Like they supposedly are?

Seriously, I haven't even mentioned Scarlets.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
13125
03/26/2012 12:33 AMPosted by Altaiea
i didn't see anything about scarlets there


owait, misread.

Either way, the Scarlets are evil. They've mass murders hundreds of fleeing refugees from Lordaeron, and they need to be stopped... Also, abandoning some of their own men at the Forsaken borders to watch the Forsaken... I said it before about other plans, but this is just stupid.

Do you honestly think the Forsaken would allow that?
Edited by Auramis on 3/26/2012 12:35 AM PDT
Reply Quote
80 Blood Elf Paladin
8385
03/26/2012 12:28 AMPosted by Auramis
Which one of these is a dumb idea?


Depends, are you a Scarlet Crusade fanboy who hates the Argent Crusade for no other reason than because Blizzard half-assed the lore for them after "their expansion"?
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Warrior
10805
03/26/2012 12:35 AMPosted by Auramis
i didn't see anything about scarlets there


owait, misread.

Either way, the Scarlets are evil. They've mass murders hundreds of fleeing refugees from Lordaeron, and they need to be stopped... Also, abandoning some of their own men at the Forsaken borders to watch the Forsaken... I said it before about other plans, but this is just stupid.

Do you honestly think the Forsaken would allow that?


Then if the Forsaken outright murder them, then that's pretty much a blatant indicator of "HEY WE'RE EVIL COME PURGE US."

Imagine if it was Forsaken Argents posted. That would make it simply hilarious.
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Hunter
5340
Either way, the Scarlets are evil. They've mass murders hundreds of fleeing refugees from Lordaeron, and they need to be stopped... Also, abandoning some of their own men at the Forsaken borders to their own devices in watching the Forsaken... I said it before about other plans, but this is just stupid.

That's true, but they're not going to be growing in size nearly as rapidly as the Forsaken are - they're isolated, and can't magically turn the people they kill into more soldiers.

And I never said "abandon" their men. "Station". "Monitor." Hell, they could even place some of their Forsaken membership there. And if they "mysteriously disappear", then they just tell Garrosh that something's up, because let's face it - he's dying for an excuse to put Sylvanas down.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Warrior
10805
03/26/2012 12:37 AMPosted by Wilano
let's face it - he's dying for an excuse to put Sylvanas down.


"... Watch your clever mouth, [female dog]!"
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Hunter
5340
03/26/2012 12:38 AMPosted by Altaiea
"... Watch your clever mouth, [female dog]!"

Yeah - and that's another thing. The Orcs have stationed men there specifically to watch Sylvanas. She may not like it, she may not "allow" it, but she has to live with it.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Warrior
10805
03/26/2012 12:38 AMPosted by Wilano
Yeah - and that's another thing. The Orcs have stationed men there specifically to watch Sylvanas. She may not like it, she may not "allow" it, but she has to live with it.


which is even worse

those orcs are seeing it all

and they're like

"Should we tell Garrosh? This all looks pretty bad."

"nah bro lets get some more mojo from those trolls over there"
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
13125
03/26/2012 12:37 AMPosted by Wilano
And if they "mysteriously disappear", then they just tell Garrosh that something's up, because let's face it - he's dying for an excuse to put Sylvanas down.


I doubt Garrosh would care. He has no respect for Tirion and, given the next expansion, any non-orc deaths are good news to him. Do you honestly think the guy who didn't punish Sylvannas for using the plague in Southshore and Gilneas will care if a few Argent Soldiers, not even his own people, go missing?

He won't care. If his Horde is attacked, though, he'd quickly turn on those who did it. Even having Argents police his Horde would be an insult worthy of his temper to him.
Reply Quote
92 Human Paladin
9695
03/26/2012 12:18 AMPosted by Auramis
He said his oath was focusing on evils that can't hide behind politics and pleasantries... The Forsaken CAN, though... So, tough snot.


That depends on how you're interpreting the semantic context of his last line. Does he mean "I will only go after evil which is not able to hide behind politics or pleasantries" or is it "I will not permit evil to hide behind politics or pleasantries"?

Given Tirion's history (e.g. to hell with your anti-Orc laws, I'll do the right thing no matter who stands against me!) it seems far more likely that the oath's intent was the latter - to reject political manoeuvring and general niceties as a valid shield for any abhorrent acts. This seems much more in line with both Tirion as a character, and the general flavour of the Argent Crusade. They do what is right, because it is the right thing to do. No excuses. No exceptions.

Following from this, and that the Crusade has seemed to have adopted the Plaguelands as their own land from which to operate out of, I would argue that the Crusade's failure to mobilise against a force outright repeating the same activities of the Scourge is a direct contradiction of the oath Tirion swore.
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Hunter
5340
03/26/2012 12:41 AMPosted by Auramis
I doubt Garrosh would care. He has no respect for Tirion and, given the next expansion, any non-orc deaths are good news to him. Do you honestly think the guy who didn't punish Sylvannas for using the plague in Southshore and Gilneas will care if a few Argent Soldiers, not even his own people, go missing?

So send an Argent orc. "Warchief, Tirion sends news that Sylvanas has been disobeying you and deploying her plague in spite of your orders."

Also, I was under the impression that Sylvanas was using the plague behind Garrosh's back.

03/26/2012 12:41 AMPosted by Auramis
He won't care. If his Horde is attacked, though, he'd quickly turn on those who did it. Even having Argents police his Horde would be an insult worthy of his temper to him.

He doesn't care about the Forsaken, though. Like, at all.

Anyway, the Argent shouldn't neccesarily go to war with the Forsaken, that'd be a bad move.

But they should do something. And they're not. Like, at all. As far as I can tell, they're not even trying to develop a counter-plague or anything - just kind of letting Sylvanas make everything north of the Thandol Span unlivable.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
13125
03/26/2012 12:41 AMPosted by Judeith
Following from this, and that the Crusade has seemed to have adopted the Plaguelands as their own land from which to operate out of, I would argue that the Crusade's failure to mobilise against a force outright repeating the same activities of the Scourge is a direct contradiction of the oath Tirion swore.


The context of it can be taken different based on who you ask about it, so we can't say for certain we know what he meant. Personally, I think he was using the words as a title to refer to those evils, not to say that he wouldn't let politics stop him.

In the long run, however, militantly and politically, it doesn't matter what Tirion's oath said. The Forsaken have the ENTIRE HORDE on their side, and, as I've said before, attacking them would be suicide for the Crusade.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Warrior
10805
But they should do something. And they're not. Like, at all. As far as I can tell, they're not even trying to develop a counter-plague or anything - just kind of letting Sylvanas make everything north of the Thandol Span unlivable.


Right..!

The AC is working to make the Plaguelands livable.

Sylvanas is making them work even HARDER to restore everything else she's effectively destroying.

:|
Edited by Altaiea on 3/26/2012 12:45 AM PDT
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Hunter
5340
03/26/2012 12:45 AMPosted by Auramis
In the long run, however, militantly and politically, it doesn't matter what Tirion's oath said. The Forsaken have the ENTIRE HORDE on their side, and, as I've said before, attacking them would be suicide for the Crusade.

So do anything else. Like station people to watch them and make sure they don't do evil things. Evacuate refugees into their lands. Supply the rebels with weapons and equipment, discreetly.

There are tons of things they can do without upsetting the Horde, which they're not doing.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Paladin
13125
But they should do something. And they're not. Like, at all. As far as I can tell, they're not even trying to develop a counter-plague or anything - just kind of letting Sylvanas make everything north of the Thandol Span unlivable.


They're watching them. Blizzard's horrible at relaying anything like that in game, though. I have confidence the Crusade is working to monitor the Forsaken... But it wasn't clarified they were doing this until after enough people asked about it, so it wasn't implemented in game.

However, it's made apparent by that one Apothecary in Plaguewood that he doesn't like Sylvannas' newfound madness, and it's likely the Crusade doesn't like it as well.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]