Pandaren, Mogu, NElves and Trolls *NEW LORE*

100 Tauren Shaman
14190
03/29/2012 01:01 PMPosted by Qreslix
Nah, the tauren had no special connection to mulgore until Cairn settled them. They particularly roamed that vast land of the barrens.


That only applies after the War of the Ancients. As far as I remember the Barrens were quite full of life prior to the invasion of the demons and the sundering.
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100 Night Elf Druid
11040
That only applies after the War of the Ancients. As far as I remember the Barrens were quite full of life prior to the invasion of the demons and the sundering.

Yeah, but the thing is it was a forest like Ashenvale. The tauren prefer open plains, steppe and savannah so I doubt they lived there at the time.
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I also wonder where the Aqir Wars are located in all of this.

Perhaps the Zandalari and their Mogu allies rocked the Aqir, where do the Tol'vir place in that though? Didn't the Aqir conquer the Tol'vir and adopt their style of architecture?

It also looks like the Mogu are Titan creations, made out of a jade type of stone. I thought the Titan-created race's shied away from the non-titan races... like the Troll empire.

I'm also curious if we will see any Mogu interaction with the Vry'krul, all of the early titan race's together for some reason or another.

I'm completly lost when it comes to the pre-sundering lore.....
Edited by Dauzat on 3/29/2012 3:51 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Druid
11040
03/29/2012 03:50 PMPosted by Dauzat
I'm completly lost when it comes to the pre-sundering lore.....

Don't worry, so is Blizzard. :P
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100 Tauren Shaman
14190
03/29/2012 02:28 PMPosted by Omacron
That only applies after the War of the Ancients. As far as I remember the Barrens were quite full of life prior to the invasion of the demons and the sundering.

Yeah, but the thing is it was a forest like Ashenvale. The tauren prefer open plains, steppe and savannah so I doubt they lived there at the time.


I think that was my point:P
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90 Worgen Druid
5805
The reclusive Night Elves were the first race to awaken in the World of Warcraft. These shadowy, immortal beings were the first to study magic and let it loose throughout the world nearly ten thousand years before Warcraft I.

Courtesy of http://classic.battle.net/war3/nightelf/

I don't understand why they keep retconning this. Ignoring my annoyance with their decision to confirm night elves used to be trolls - a decision which I feel hurts both races and was far more interesting as something ambiguous - do they have any idea how ridiculous this makes their timeline look?

They need to stop going backwards. There is a 10,000 year gap where nothing happened in Azeroth, and then suddenly the world is about to end every year from a new threat each time. Just think about that for one second... 10,000 years. That is no small amount of time. If they have to go back in time, they should be filling in that blank, not continually going backwards and retconning the night elves being the first civilization.

It's not even like this is some little bit of lore that can easily be overlooked or forgotten about, like with the eredar being the race that corrupted Sargeras. It has been continually stressed that night elves were the first, and then they suddenly start adding civilizations and races that pre-date the NE.

It wouldn't be so bad if this information wasn't delivered to us by the part of narrators. Discovering that civilizations pre-date the night elves is interesting, if it's conveyed to us by Azerothian historians who don't know any better. Instead, Blizzard has told us 'out of character' so to speak that they were the first, which makes things frustrating when they change it.

As an example of what I mean, in Mass Effect we're told by characters within the game world that the protheans were the first race, which makes it a good plot twist when we discover that there were actually many other civilizations pre-dating the protheans. That works way better than Blizzard changing their minds constantly over lore established by narrators telling us about the setting.
Edited by Dalvik on 3/29/2012 6:15 PM PDT
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100 Night Elf Druid
11040
Courtesy of http://classic.battle.net/war3/nightelf/

I don't understand why they keep retconning this. Ignoring my annoyance with their decision to confirm night elves used to be trolls - a decision which I feel hurts both races and was far more interesting as something ambiguous - do they have any idea how ridiculous this makes their timeline look?

Oh come on. We've known the night elves weren't the "first race" to awaken on Azeroth for years. I mean even in the WotA books we knew that other societies predated them. You might have had some veracity complaining about this back when WoW was coming out but at this point it's old news and small potatoes. Hell, I'm pretty sure that stuff in WCIII itself contradicts that webpage.
They need to stop going backwards. There is a 10,000 year gap where nothing happened in Azeroth, and then suddenly the world is about to end every year from a new threat each time. Just think about that for one second... 10,000 years. That is no small amount of time. If they have to go back in time, they should be filling in that blank, not continually going backwards and retconning the night elves being the first civilization.

There's two things to consider here. One, the world of Azeroth during those ten thousand years was protected by things like the dragons, ancients and guardians of Tirisfal. Things that have been killed, destroyed or summarily reduced to ineffectiveness and planetary defense is now a mostly mortal concern: a sentiment stated by Medivh at the end of WCIII and echoed by the aspects at the end of Cataclysm. These world-threatening events happened all the time during those ten thousand years, it's just that we mortals never had to deal with them. Two... how the hell can you detail the rise of the night elf empire without going back further in time?
It's not even like this is some little bit of lore that can easily be overlooked or forgotten about, like with the eredar being the race that corrupted Sargeras. It has been continually stressed that night elves were the first, and then they suddenly start adding civilizations and races that pre-date the NE.

It wouldn't be so bad if this information wasn't delivered to us by the part of narrators. Discovering that civilizations pre-date the night elves is interesting, if it's conveyed to us by Azerothian historians who don't know any better. Instead, Blizzard has told us 'out of character' so to speak that they were the first, which makes things frustrating when they change it.

Did you actually read my first posts? This information comes from a variety of in-game questlines presented primarily by mortal questgivers. It's not some narrator, it's in-character and in-game. But we have no reason to believe it's false. Furthermore, the night elves have NOT constantly stressed the fact that they were the first culture: early, yes, but not first. We know that the titans, old gods and most especially trolls have always predated them, and we have mentions of them clashing with and destroying the troll empires from Vanilla WoW if not earlier.

You really seem like a rather irate night elf fanboy who doesn't realize that lore has changed since 2003. And guess what, Blizzard pulled a lot of lore out of their asses and retconned a lot to make the night elves fit in the first place (remember when the high elves had druids?), so stop acting like the lore introduced in WCIII is infallible.
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100 Human Warrior
16480
03/29/2012 12:52 PMPosted by Pyronaptor
We know that the tauren are the descendants of a bull ancient (which I always found interesting that Brann Bronzebeard and thus Blizzard specific a bull, a MALE ancient, perhaps so we didn't assume their creator was the Earthmother). Their relationship to the Yaungol in Pandaria is unknown.My guess is that whatever process the Mogu use to create half-animal species is similar to what ancients do. It could even be that the mogu created or are related to the ancients.

The thing that bugs me about the Bull Ancient is that we haven't seen him yet.

Then again, come Pandaria, we do have Ox related lore in the Monk class, Stance of the Drunken Ox, the Ox Statue, so on. Maybe one of their 'Ancients?' is the same Ox/Bull entity that created the Tauren.


http://media.mmo-champion.com/images/news/2012/march/mop_yakgod.jpg might be it. If this is the origin of Tauren we may get some actual lore that matters. (Looking at you Tunka!)

As for the night elf thing, could be that the Dark Trolls turned to some sort of Night Elf like thing that latter found the well or they night elves where not as powerful after becoming Elves as they clam. Needs more info...
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90 Worgen Druid
5805
03/29/2012 06:37 PMPosted by Omacron
Oh come on. We've known the night elves weren't the "first race" to awaken on Azeroth for years.


Define 'years'. They haven't started retconning this until just recently.

03/29/2012 06:37 PMPosted by Omacron
There's two things to consider here. One, the world of Azeroth during those ten thousand years was protected by things like the dragons, ancients and guardians of Tirisfal. Things that have been killed, destroyed or summarily reduced to ineffectiveness and planetary defense is now a mostly mortal concern: a sentiment stated by Medivh at the end of WCIII and echoed by the aspects at the end of Cataclysm.


I'm not talking about world-shaking events, though even then there's never any mention of them either. We can't just assume the world almost ended multiple times throughout Azeroth's history. Either way it's still a huge gap where they have plenty of room to expand and flesh things out. As it stands, it's like... a ton of stuff happened, and then 10,000 years later more stuff happened, and everything that's happening in the second period is influenced by stuff that happened in the first period.

03/29/2012 06:37 PMPosted by Omacron
Did you actually read my first posts? This information comes from a variety of in-game questlines presented primarily by mortal questgivers. It's not some narrator, it's in-character and in-game. But we have no reason to believe it's false. Furthermore, the night elves have NOT constantly stressed the fact that they were the first culture: early, yes, but not first.


I believe I misspoke. Let me re-phrase. We were told the night elves were the first race by narrators. If we were told by people in the game, then I wouldn't have a problem, because it would fall into the example I used before with Mass Effect and the belief that the protheans were the first race. Instead, narrators and other sources of similar lore told us the night elves were the first.

03/29/2012 06:37 PMPosted by Omacron
You really seem like a rather irate night elf fanboy who doesn't realize that lore has changed since 2003.


I don't believe I said anything insulting or derogatory towards you. I could turn it around on you and say you sound like a rather irate blizzard fanboy who doesn't like someone criticizing their lore, but there's no reason to take this to insults or condescension.

03/29/2012 06:37 PMPosted by Omacron
And guess what, Blizzard pulled a lot of lore out of their asses and retconned a lot to make the night elves fit in the first place (remember when the high elves had druids?)


Nothing was really all that well defined prior to WC3. Warcraft lore in WC1 and 2 wasn't all that big a deal, it wasn't a fleshed out world, and there was nothing as definitive as "The reclusive Night Elves were the first race to awaken in the World of Warcraft."

More specifically, the druids you are referring to were simply called 'elven' druids. It never explicitly stated they were high elves. It can be assumed they were, but then again I don't recall any lore stating that night elves are the only druids in the world either, just the most common practitioners of druidic magic. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Edited by Dalvik on 3/29/2012 7:11 PM PDT
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100 Troll Shaman
5695
03/29/2012 07:02 PMPosted by Dalvik
Define 'years'. They haven't started retconning this until just recently.

It was retconned by Vanilla.

So at least as far back as 2004.
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100 Night Elf Druid
11040
03/29/2012 07:02 PMPosted by Dalvik
Define 'years'. They haven't started retconning this until just recently.

WoW came out in 2004 so... 8 years?
03/29/2012 07:02 PMPosted by Dalvik
I'm not talking about world-shaking events, though even then there's never any mention of them either. We can't just assume the world almost ended multiple times throughout Azeroth's history. Either way it's still a huge gap where they have plenty of room to expand and flesh things out. As it stands, it's like... a ton of stuff happened, and then 10,000 years later more stuff happened, and everything that's happening in the second period is influenced by stuff that happened in the first period.

We're slowly but surely learning about things that happened during the long vigil, like the War of the Shifting Sands (a potentially world-shattering event) and the Satyr War (an event which was dire enough to require the night elves utilize the dangerous Druids of the Pack) and the Dragon Hunt which is a reason why there are so few dragons in the modern era.
03/29/2012 07:02 PMPosted by Dalvik
I believe I misspoke. Let me re-phrase. We were told the night elves were the first race by narrators. If we were told by people in the game, then I wouldn't have a problem, because it would fall into the example I used before with Mass Effect and the belief that the protheans were the first race. Instead, narrators and other sources of similar lore told us the night elves were the first.

First off: you really shouldn't be championing the Mass Effect setting, or I should bring up the whole "Prothean/Collectors" retcon. Bioware is just as guilty as Blizzard on a lot of fronts. Second, the fact of the matter is that webpage was written during WCIII's development, when the entire setting wasn't as fleshed out as it is now. The old gods, titans and the like weren't even a blip on Blizz's radar until WoW ramped up in development.
03/29/2012 07:02 PMPosted by Dalvik
I don't believe I said anything insulting or derogatory towards you. I could turn it around on you and say you sound like a rather irate blizzard fanboy who doesn't like someone criticizing their lore, but there's no reason to take this to insults or condescension.

Clearly my reputation has not preceded me if you assume I'm a blizzard fanboy. I'm simply an advocate for the setting being fleshed out. Slavishly holding to one-off statements made almost a decade ago that do nothing but limit the setting's potential to expand is absolutely silly.
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90 Worgen Druid
5805
It was retconned by Vanilla.

So at least as far back as 2004.


Feel free to tell me where. I played Vanilla too, I don't recall anything. I mean, there was stuff that said the trollish empire is pretty old, but nothing that stated they pre-date the night elves.

They brought up the possibility that night elves came from trolls, but that doesn't mean trollish civilization pre-dates night elven civilization.

03/29/2012 07:10 PMPosted by Omacron
First off: you really shouldn't be championing the Mass Effect setting, or I should bring up the whole "Prothean/Collectors" retcon.


That's not a retcon. I'm also not 'championing' Mass Effect's storyline, I'm giving an example of what I feel was a good example of how to convey lore like this if you have intentions of changing it later. I have my problems with ME's story as well, especially with that atrocious ending in ME3.

03/29/2012 07:10 PMPosted by Omacron
Clearly my reputation has not preceded me if you assume I'm a blizzard fanboy.


You have no more reason to assume I'm a night elf fanboy than I have to assume you're a Blizzard fanboy, that's my point. There's no reason for us to turn this towards insults, I was never directing my criticism towards you.
Edited by Dalvik on 3/29/2012 7:19 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Shaman
14190
NEs havent been the first race in lore for a long time...

I think I remember quests in vanilla stranglethorn which suggested the trolls were older.
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100 Night Elf Druid
11040
03/29/2012 07:17 PMPosted by Dalvik
Feel free to tell me where. I played Vanilla too, I don't recall anything. I mean, there was stuff that said the trollish empire is pretty old, but nothing that stated they pre-date the night elves.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Troll_Compendium/Early_Troll_Civilization#Newer_Foes:_The_Kaldorei
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100 Troll Shaman
5695
03/29/2012 07:17 PMPosted by Dalvik
Feel free to tell me where. I played Vanilla too, I don't recall anything. I mean, there was stuff that said the trollish empire is pretty old, but nothing that stated they pre-date the night elves.

The quest no longer exists, but back in Alterac Valley, a Troll quest giver mentioned the (now proven) theory that Night Elves evolved from Trolls. A theory which would be entirely nonsensical had the Troll appeared after the Night Elves.

Various in-game books released in Vanilla also pointed to the fact the Trolls had a continent-spanning empire thousands of years before the Night Elves were ever on the radar.

The encyclopedia (which can no longer be found on the official WoW website since its revamp, but is still archived on wowpedia if you'd like) also claimed as much.

Just a few off the top of my head.

Edit: There's also the Troll compendium, which Omacron just linked.

Basically, Night Elves haven't been the first race for a long time now.
Edited by Kellick on 3/29/2012 7:25 PM PDT
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NEs havent been the first race in lore for a long time...

I think I remember quests in vanilla stranglethorn which suggested the trolls were older.


Yep, there was a book sitting right in Booty Bay that described the older Troll lore in-detail. I believe it also sparked the initial Troll > Elf thing too.
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90 Worgen Druid
5805
The quest no longer exists, but back in Alterac Valley, a Troll quest giver mentioned the (now proven) theory that Night Elves evolved from Trolls. A theory which would be entirely nonsensical had the Troll appeared after the Night Elves.

Various in-game books released in Vanilla also pointed to the fact the Trolls had a continent-spanning empire thousands of years before the Night Elves were ever on the radar.


I honestly don't remember anything that specifically stated that the trollish civilization pre-dates the night elven one. That's not to say that the possibility didn't exist, however. I know about the quest in AV, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the lore had contradicted itself yet. The exact phrasing that was always used was 'awakened' - that can easily be taken to mean that they were the first to form a civilization.

But apparently there's an entry on the WoW website, so I can't really argue with that, except to say that I don't recall that being there.

I don't see how any of this conflicts with my point, however.

When we were first introduced to the night elves, we were told by an impartial, presumably omnipotent narrator and in no uncertain terms that the night elves were the first race to awaken.

Then we discover the trolls potentially pre-date them. Not a big deal so far.

Then it's revealed that tauren pre-date them. Then pandaren, and now apparently the mogu.

I just have to ask why, is all. I don't understand why these races can't be implemented without having them contradict already established lore.
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100 Troll Shaman
5695
03/29/2012 07:35 PMPosted by Dalvik
Then we discover the trolls potentially pre-date them. Not a big deal so far.

Not potentially. Unambiguously. Definitively. Absolutely.

Again though, it was a single sentence, and Blizzard didn't like it. As far as retcons go, that's fairly tame.
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100 Night Elf Druid
11040
There's a difference between predating the night elves and predating night elf civilization, you know. While the trolls necessarily predate them because a tribe of trolls became night elves, they were part of troll civilization until they managed to overthrow the Zandalar. The mogu are theorized by many (and supported by archaeological items datamined from the files) to be Titan races like the Earthen and Tol'vir so logically they predate the night elves, but we have no idea when the Pandaren came on to the scene.
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100 Undead Hunter
12725
03/29/2012 07:35 PMPosted by Dalvik
I just have to ask why, is all. I don't understand why these races can't be implemented without having them contradict already established lore.


Because the established lore was not fleshed out enough to support the influx of new information or they decided that looking back at the lore as they had previously established it was lacking in their point of view. They did not plan for the new races as well as they could have. Few companies have the luxury of creating lore they are not going to use for a long time, and even if they could plan that far ahead there is always the chance that their direction will change.
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