"I've been raiding since Vanilla" = Red Flag

70 Draenei Paladin
13210
In my ongoing endeavors as a guild and raid leader I've come to despise this line more than any other when speaking to applicants. In fact, it's become so iritating to me now that I consider it a major red flag.

Why is that?

Because fundamentally it is a statement that cannot be verified with justifiable proof in 99.99% of cases. You'd need to be wearing T3 gear for it to be believed. The achievement system and kill tracking didn't go live until long after Vanilla/Classic. Not until 3.0 was introduced, that's the code for Wrath of the Lich King. The pre-patch for the expansion code that nerfed every raid boss in BC to the ground by substantially increasing player power.

So you can't even use it to justify claims about BC raiding. The only useful thing it can tell you about BC raiding was: Oh hey you did a lot of nerfed raiding in that last month and a half before Wrath went life. Bravo!

/facepalm

But here's the part that really gets me with the whole line. It's not just that it can't be justified with the armory, its the fact that apps who often throw this out there, often can't remember what you were supposed to do on certain encounters.

"Treat this like an Annihilator!" Yet, do I see these same people that are heals or range stacking on the target to prevent charging? Nooooo. (Annihilators are black earth elementals from Molten Core trash. They charge ranged targets, so you stack on them to prevent it.)

"Melee spread like KT" Yet, do I see the melee spreading around a boss at max melee range in the same positions of a clockface's 12/3/6/9 o'lock positions? Nooooo. Considering "KT" is Kel'Thuzad who was re-released in WotLK under a massive nerf to his previous incarnation, it is literally dumbfounding that these.. "raiding since Vanilla" players don't have a freaking clue what to do.The bottom line is, if you've been raiding since Vanilla, then you should recognize TIME AND AGAIN the same mechanics used over and over and over. There shouldn't bee surprises, and you SHOULD be remembering the encounters you first learned them on. Not being Dumbo Joe with no clue. Because that shows you're either an idiot or a freaking liar.

Neither are desirable qualities to a potential raid guild you're applying to. Is this a rant? Nope, it's a public service announcement from leadership to apps that says:

Don't use that line, you just look like a moron.

Leadership like me who actually has been "raiding since vanilla" actually knows how to catch you slipping in a bold face lie, or show how you don't remember any of it. Besides, unless you're app'n to be the old raid content encyclopedia for the guild, what's the point in even bringing it up?

If your objective is to impress someone with that news, tell em how you've been in the same guild raiding with them the whole time. THAT'S IMPRESSIVE. If you can't say that, don't bring it up.
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55 Orc Death Knight
90
I've been raiding since Vanilla.
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1 Tauren Paladin
0
I've been raiding since vanilla
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17 Orc Warrior
100
I've been vanilla since raiding.
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check classic raid reps
check warcraftrealms character history to see when exactly the toon was made

if warcraftrealms wont track the character history, ask them about their transfer/naming history.... people who raided end game vanilla like to brag

outside of this, just nod and kick them when they are bad now... who cares what they did 5 years ago
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I don't really hear to much of that until after they are approved for trials. I rarely give them the chance to make that statement. I agree it is no value to me with current Tier content. I start off the interview process by did you raid in firelands? Did you complete any of the content before the nerf? What did you finish in firelands before dragon soul came about? Then i continue from there

If you avoid the questions of.. tell me something about yourself of what is your past experiences you can often miss the "I raided in BC". Start out by asking something in detail like stated above.
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85 Tauren Druid
9045
I've done periodic raids since Vanilla. Was lost on the Annihilator reference though, as they were never called by name. They were called "stack up" if anything. I mean, it was a long time ago, I probably remember most boss names, while trash is remembered visually (I see the model and remember 'that guy,' not the name).

When KT was referenced I was thinking triangle rather than plus spread, but I did it 10 man, and with our melee triangle was sufficient, with more wiggle room.

Ah, memories of people whispering "You are the bomb!" to random raiders when they knew the raid was on that fight.

Also "hey, if you look in that crack you can see Ragnaros."

And learning that priest fade could make you go to negative threat because it was the only way for me to survive the pull on Majordomo (heal the MT, everything else comes for you as people try to pick it up. Pre-fade and it doesn't because you're below 0 threat.).
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90 Worgen Druid
16550
We ask about all previous raid history simply because with the amount of nerfs since ICC it is near impossible to tell if someone has real exp or not. But everything is taken at face value because back in Vanilla there was more than a bit of carrying in the raids (I could sneak in a shower during the trash in MC >.>, autofollow ftw).

But honestly, players change regardless of raiding in vanilla or not. I have seen plenty of people who used to be amazing just flat out suck because they don't care enough anymore.
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85 Tauren Shaman
0
Why not just treat it like it is? "Oh, you've been raiding since Vanilla? How very exciting for you. We're raiding in Cataclysm now, and that's the only raiding that matters."

It shouldn't really be something that generates enough angst for a forum thread... it really deserves a "that's nice" or a "who cares" and not much more thought than that. Relax a bit. :)
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90 Human Death Knight
14835
I don't see why are you making a giant deal out of a simple statement. Just nod, or don't nod, and move on with the questions that matter to you...And I'd like to think at least more than half of the people are not trying to lie to you either.

Not like previous raiding history affects much of anything. You could be amazing then and suck now or have no prior experience and still perform very well in current content. Once your gear is up to par - for which old content is mostly useless - you can learn any new fight with a little research and a few real attempts at it.
Edited by Naxa on 3/29/2012 8:29 PM PDT
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85 Worgen Warrior
10140
I know what DeathPony is getting at and I completely understand where they are coming from. Essentially it is just a note for those who read this forum to say "hey DO NOT DO THIS, unless u can back it up".

Hell I use to raid back in vanilla but I always say exactly what content I got through back then. Actually Vanilla is the only part of WoW where I did the least amount of raiding. Since then Ive cleared everything while it was current cept the firelands nerfs they came quicker than I anticipated but i still cleared.

On a side note for people when they say they did everything in BC i always ask about the Hand of A'dal title since that was given out to players once they removed the key quest required to get into Hyjal and BT. Luckily my old warlock main has it /flex :P
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58 Dwarf Death Knight
0
For what it is worth, it seems like most raid groups frequently use nicknames or generic terms instead of boss or mechanic names. Heroic putricide wasn't even particularly long ago, but I have no idea what the disease was called. We called it something like "the debuff" or "the plague". Expecting people to remember terms from five years ago that in many cases they didn't use, is unrealistic.

I do agree that "raiding since Vanilla" means different things from different claimants. It might mean that the person is outright lying, has been raiding off and on, or has been seriously raiding the whole time. As such, it shouldn't be the only line in an application. But I agree with other posters that being hostile to the phrase is an overreaction.
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I have been raiding since Vanilla... The best verification of that I can give you is my Senior Sergeant feat of strength, since I pvp'ed on non raid days when I wasn't busy with my Army unit I was in at the time.

For me, yes, I have been raiding since then, but the sad thing is, I don't remember much from then, at least boss fight wise. Hell, I can barely remember most of tier 9 & 10. Some people may have been raiding that long, but don't have the best memory of mechanics.Things most memorable to me from vanilla are doing other things with my friends in game, not what boss X does.

For recruiting purposes for my guild, yes, I look at their raid history, and that history has to be while the content was relevant. Do I use 7 years of raiding experience as a "get in the group free" card? No. All members go through a two week trial so I can see them in action. Maybe they did raid all that time, but then again, maybe they got lucky with heals and suck at dealing with mechanics. Knowing their history is meh at best, seeing what the player can do NOW is what matters.
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90 Night Elf Druid
10550
03/29/2012 04:33 PMPosted by Deathpony
But here's the part that really gets me with the whole line. It's not just that it can't be justified with the armory, its the fact that apps who often throw this out there, often can't remember what you were supposed to do on certain encounters.


Why would this even matter if you're recruiting for current content? While the question may rub you the wrong way, you shouldn't be going out of your way to make the applicant prove experience from past expansions. Experience with current content should matter more.
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03/30/2012 03:26 AMPosted by Sherbear
Why would this even matter if you're recruiting for current content? While the question may rub you the wrong way, you shouldn't be going out of your way to make the applicant prove experience from past expansions. Experience with current content should matter more.


I think for a lot of recruiters, "raiding since Vanilla" is a shorthand for saying the person isn't just an LFR junkie who expects to kill Deathwing the first week content is released. Cleared content pre-nerf, or cleared content while current, are two of many other ways of conveying this.

It's not an insignificant piece of information. For people who have been running raiding guilds through this time, there's often a noticeable difference -- not of quality, but of expectations -- among people whose only experience is Wrath (gradual nerf) and Cata (LFR) raiding.

I've had applicants who would see spending one night of attempts on a heroic boss as a sign of abject failure (let alone spending a week on it) because their experiences haven't led them to expect that raiding can be hard and require diligence and determination. The "raiding since vanilla" statement is just a cue that the person knows that all bosses don't die in the first three attempts.

Personally, I don't see it as a major point for or against the person, but it does provide me the opportunity to investigate raiding experiences and make sure the applicant understands what raiding can require. (This is probably not an issue for more progression focused guilds, who wouldn't see as many of these types of apps.)
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90 Troll Shaman
7735
I'm popping in here just to say that we went in and did ulduar achievs last night, and even though I loved that place to death I still had trouble remembering what to do at all. If someone had asked me what you did for each boss I would have gone "uhhhhh. . ." So, y'know, not everyone remembers things. When you said 'melee spread like KT' I couldn't remember it until someone further below said 'triangle' and then I remembered.

A lot can happen in five or six years, much less just one. A lot of people have gone through college, had kids, started families, careers, bought a house, etc since Vanilla. Unless they're using it as a 'I raided vanilla so therefore I am better than all your other apps,' I see nothing wrong with bringing it up. A lot of players have nostalgia from old raids, and they like remembering with other people. They may not remember the technical details, but instead things like their raid leader yelling over vent "Who looted the trash?! WHO LOOTED IT?!?!" because his ui was covering his loot window, or hearing his wife chewing him out over vent as he didn't have a push to talk key (one of my raid members' stories).

People like sharing. Just maybe not what you want them to share, or remember.
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85 Tauren Warrior
12445
I've been raiding since Vanilla.

That being said, the only thing you can be sure of is that this person knows you need more than a night or two of progession attempts to get a new boss down. 40 man raiding was no joke, it required a great deal more coordination, communication, and team play than the laughable 10m's of today.

This applicant may, however, be unfamiliar with new mechanics such as mastery, their new CTC cap, maximizing cooldowns/pots in Cata raids, etc. "I've been raiding since Vanilla" is imo a good start, but by no means a whole leg up over another applicant.

Sidenote: ask for Aqual Quintessence FoS linked :P
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90 Draenei Paladin
6160
I've been raiding since Cata ;)
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1 Human Mage
0
03/30/2012 11:38 AMPosted by Travex
Sidenote: ask for Aqual Quintessence FoS linked :P

I didn't start playing until BC was launched and I have that FoS. That quest line was available until they took out the need to douse the runes in MC, which was well into BC and possibly early Wrath. Not sure of the date. It would prove longevity, sure, but not vanilla raiding.

Personally, I like it when people tell me how long they've been raiding. I'd much prefer to recruit someone who raided in classic than someone whose first raiding experience was ICC. Wrath made good raiders lazy and produced an entire "generation" of raiders who don't understand the concepts of communication and camaraderie. Who expect to one or two-shot bosses they've never seen, and who think gems, enchants, glyphs, and reforges are optional.

"I've been raiding since Vanilla" = "I've been around long enough to know that LFR doesn't define raiding."

JMO of course.
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75 Orc Warrior
9680
03/30/2012 10:04 AMPosted by Dakeea
I'm popping in here just to say that we went in and did ulduar achievs last night, and even though I loved that place to death I still had trouble remembering what to do at all. If someone had asked me what you did for each boss I would have gone "uhhhhh. . ." So, y'know, not everyone remembers things. When you said 'melee spread like KT' I couldn't remember it until someone further below said 'triangle' and then I remembered.

Don't forget though that Ulduar while it was content shut alot of guilds down due to being "hard" while it was out, easily the hardest raid in WotLK and one of the best raids made period. But I do get what the opening poster is trying to say, when I ran a guild I did a little research and found that not to many people cleared a un-nerfed Sunwell in BC yet somehow I met everyone that did, they just couldn't figure out that standing in fire was bad, or some other common sense mechanic during Wrath go figure...
With the "I raided in vanilla" just look at it this way they are a applicant just like a job interview everyone embellishes a little bit, its a white lie where either the truth comes out or it doesn't.
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