MoP Blood DK Discussion

90 Troll Death Knight
0
This thread is to facilitate the discusion of the MoP beta regardless if you have beta access or not.

My thoughts on talents inc.
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90 Troll Death Knight
0
Talents

Tier 1

It seems like for a Blood DK, the only option in this tier is Roiling Blood, but due to its convenience, I am perfectly fine with that.

From what I hear, Unholy Blight does no damage so I dont really see its point. It may be useful for the other 2 dk specs since they would then be able to spend their blood/death rune on something else but for Blood it seems unhelpful.

Vile Spew has a clunky mechanic and large runic power cost so I dont see Blood using it at all. It will probably be regulated to Unholy mostly.

Tier 2

I see myself switching between lichborne and AMZ often. I wish they would reduce the percent of damage absorbed by AMZ and remove the damage cap though its still useful in this form.

Icy Grip will probably only used on specialized fights where DG is already very strong like the Rag transition phase.

Tier 3

This is one of those tiers that is highly fight dependant. I would pick up Asphyxiate most of the time since I in general do not like mobs slowed unless I am kiting them. Deaths advance probably wont get used much in a PVE scenario since slows are infrequent on bosses.

Tier 4

This is again one of those fight dependent tiers. I think that conversion will be chosen on bosses with more frequent but softer attacks. This is due to not being topped up as often and so RP is less likely to get wasted on overhealing. Whereas Death Pact will be chosen on bosses with slow hard hitting attacks

Tier 5

This tier is very much in debate but I think its a very interesting tier. Blood Tap provides control while Runic Corruption provides consistant procs, and Runic Empowerment provides more random procs.

To make these talents balanced, we have to take into account what benefits they provide.

Blood Tap should provide the least number of Rune Refreshes per min. This is because it provides something that other 2 dont. Control. You can control when you refresh runes, and you can control which runes are refreshed.

Runic Corruption should be in the middle. Because while it is a proc. It always provides a consistant result.

Runic Empowerment should have the highest Rune Refreshes per min since it has the most randomness to its proc. Its the concept of high risk, high reward. To maximize its use, a good amount of rune micromanaging is necessary.

Tier 6

This tier is just supposed to be the fun tier so I'm not super concerned if its a bit unbalanced. Especially with the varied uses each could be used in.
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90 Troll Death Knight
0
I like how they effectively made blood runes entirely for threat/damage. The only time a blood rune could be used for a death strike is if you blood tap it into a death rune which from what I hear, it is fairly easy to prevent. You still have to watch blood rune cds if you take blood tap or runic empowerment but not having to exploit the live blood tap bug will be a welcome change in my opinion.
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100 Night Elf Death Knight
11315
I am very happy to see that we are not getting any huge changes just for the sake of a new xpac.

Blood Tanking still feels rather new and unique, but small changes like AMZ and runic Corruption seems to add some nice variety.

Death Coil glyph looks very interesting too.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
04/02/2012 08:46 PMPosted by Crowndeagle
Death Coil glyph looks very interesting too.


It has some potential, but it comes at the cost of a BT/RC/RE charge/chance. Could see use on fights where you have to offtank/tank swap. Of course, I didn't expect to just get a free "heal" (essentially), much less one that I can cast on someone else, so it's not like I find that cost outrageous.

AP scaling currently places it at about ~60% of the power of a current Lichborne Death Coil, ignoring the static portion. Not sure what AP values will look like at 90.

The new Scent of Blood makes the rotation flow much more smoothly. However, I don't think the number of stacks you have is something that you're really even going to track, so I don't see the priority changing any. You could attempt to time it for a small gain, but that's taking the risk that 1) your swing lands and 2) you don't lose some damage in your DS heal window, which is stacked heavily against you generally.
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90 Human Paladin
8390
DRW still costs 60 RP.

/sigh.
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90 Troll Death Knight
0
04/02/2012 09:11 PMPosted by Euliat
The new Scent of Blood makes the rotation flow much more smoothly. However, I don't think the number of stacks you have is something that you're really even going to track, so I don't see the priority changing any. You could attempt to time it for a small gain, but that's taking the risk that 1) your swing lands and 2) you don't lose some damage in your DS heal window, which is stacked heavily against you generally.


I really think its just blizzard giving an incentive toward getting hit/exp. I think I have to agree with what you and eflow were discussing previously in reducing the stack cap and making the benefits grow exponentially. It would give benefits to timing DS with incoming damage instead of just shotgunning it.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
04/02/2012 09:57 PMPosted by Deathtime
I really think its just blizzard giving an incentive toward getting hit/exp.


It is, and it does succeed in doing that by a small margin, I suppose, going by my spreadsheet. Depends on how much rating per 1% hit/expertise. Later, I'll be able to actually confirm that.

I think the larger pull to hit/expertise will once again be the fact that DS must successfully land to heal you. I've heard unverified rumors that a DS failure also consumes runes, in which case that represents a serious, serious loss, which absolutely must be fixed if so. If that's not how it's behaving, then disregard that.

77.5% chance to hit at 8 DS/min with a 3.27s (post-haste) swing speed shows an average stack of 1.65 (24.73%) when you use DS. Increasing that to 85% accuracy (so hit-capping) raises that to 1.81 (27.12%). That number drops pretty hard once you hit just above 9 DS/min (because you clipped 1 extra swing out of your DS interval).

Exponential return would probably be hard to implement and balance, but currently waiting 13s for a 75% boost (all hits land) just seems like an extremely bad tradeoff. You can use 2 DS's in that same time frame. While I know the placement of your DS's is pretty important, still, the actual throughput does still matter. Realistically, provided you aren't AFK and you are actually tanking a mob, I don't see you ever going above 3 stacks.

You have to rarely use DS for that to happen, and you simply can't do that unless what you're tanking doesn't matter. 4 swings will only just begin to appear in your DS window if you don't use DS for 10s, and the probability of that 4-swing scenario is almost negligible (1.82%).

edit: That being said, still, I completely prefer this version of SoB than the current one. You don't have to be hit to generate RP, and you generate quite a bit more RP, which addresses downtime.

2nd edit: Primarily, I see SoB trying to narrow the discrepancy between someone with a high DS/min and someone with an average DS/min. If that's all it's intended to do, then that's quite a novel approach to going about doing that (by how much it narrows that margin I can't say definitively). In addition, the RP return helps smooth out the rotation, which is certainly appreciated.

Expanding on how the exponential returns would be hard to balance (more properly should be worded "tricky"), if it's too much of a gain, then we'll all be loaded with hit/expertise and will have to sit around on a DS until we hit that stack threshold. That won't be fun. If it's not enough of a gain, then we're simply just going to ignore the stacks, and very rarely would we ever delay a DS for an extra stack. SoB's primary function then just becomes for the RP return.
Edited by Euliat on 4/2/2012 11:01 PM PDT
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90 Troll Death Knight
0
04/02/2012 10:38 PMPosted by Euliat
Expanding on how the exponential returns would be hard to balance (more properly should be worded "tricky"), if it's too much of a gain, then we'll all be loaded with hit/expertise and will have to sit around on a DS until we hit that stack threshold. That won't be fun. If it's not enough of a gain, then we're simply just going to ignore the stacks, and very rarely would we ever delay a DS for an extra stack. SoB's primary function then just becomes for the RP return.


I could definitely see that. It would work better if our swing timer wasn't so slow so that the time difference between one stack and the next wasn't so great. I would say just leave it as is and drop it down to 3 stacks for now. Maybe increase the healing bonus per stack slightly on top of that.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
15670
04/02/2012 09:11 PMPosted by Euliat
Death Coil glyph looks very interesting too.


It has some potential, but it comes at the cost of a BT/RC/RE charge/chance. Could see use on fights where you have to offtank/tank swap. Of course, I didn't expect to just get a free "heal" (essentially), much less one that I can cast on someone else, so it's not like I find that cost outrageous.

AP scaling currently places it at about ~60% of the power of a current Lichborne Death Coil, ignoring the static portion. Not sure what AP values will look like at 90.

The new Scent of Blood makes the rotation flow much more smoothly. However, I don't think the number of stacks you have is something that you're really even going to track, so I don't see the priority changing any. You could attempt to time it for a small gain, but that's taking the risk that 1) your swing lands and 2) you don't lose some damage in your DS heal window, which is stacked heavily against you generally.


i wouldn't be too excited about that.

Like i posted on another thread:

"the death coil "pw:s" on allies is 0.5AP ratio. So even with full stacked vengeance (27k), my DC were generating shields of 13k ish .. at 40 RP cost (and it's not a heal, so you don't get 20rp refund)."

40 rp to make 12-15k shields is REALLY crappy. And they don't stack btw.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
04/03/2012 02:51 PMPosted by Eflow
i wouldn't be too excited about that.


I'm not, and I'm aware that it doesn't stack. I didn't expect it to be awesome, and it won't be something that I use routinely (e.g. tank swaps only, and even then probably not).

If it did stack, then it would certainly be exploited.

Keep in mind that DPS DKs can also use it (not that they probably would), so they can't make the absorb outrageous, either.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
15670
it just creates a new one replacing the previous one. So yeh, they are overwritten. Some updates on Blood Tap:

- it refreshes only depleted runes (runes recharging are not eligible)

- it's not on gcd nor it has it's own GCD. So you can cast it twice in a row. And like the "Blood tap + pillar of frost bug" on live .. even if you macro 2 /cast Blood Tap, it refreshes only one rune and gives an error msg saying you don't have enough blood charges for the second cast (even if you do have them). So yeah .. you have to press it twice.


- The rune refreshed as death does not have a duration. It will stay Death until used.

- Once used, the rune will refresh back into whatever it was refreshing previously. So it's not like live where you can blood tap and have a death rune for 20 sec.

For example:
a) you use blood tap, and it resets a blood rune. It will be death until used, after used, it will refresh as blood again. Same applies to F and U runes.

like this:
BT use refresh
B ---> D ------------> B
F ---> D ------------> F
U ---> D ------------> U


b) you use blood tap, and it refreshes a death rune (because of blood rites for example), it will be death until used, after used it will refresh AS DEATH again.

like this:
BT use refresh
D ---> D ------------> D
So whatever the rune was going to refresh, it will remain that way after used. - the charges only last for 20 seconds. So any boss with long transitions or simply going out of combat between pulls it basically means your charges might run out. The idea is nice, but there's some problems in the implementation.

1st. To have the same "DS/min" or simply the same resource income from RC/RE you have to use them as soon as you get 6 charges. But that kinda kills the purpose of control, because it turns into the same thing the other 2 options do, but in a mechanical way. Its an ilusion of control to use it this way.

2nd. Since it caps on 6 charges (it's 3 charges per refresh btw .. so to refresh a pair you need exactly 6), you'll end up losing charges UNLESS ... you spend them whenever they are up lol .. which is problem number 1.

So if you pool them to use in an emergency, you are basically wasting proc after proc. That alone imo, translates into: It's worst than RE/RC.

to sum up the big problems:
- ramp up time (it takes 6 rune strikes, or 180 RP to build 6 charges, those don't appear out of nowhere)
- need more room to pool them. Perhaps up to 12 charges. This way you can sacrifice some resources over the long run, but you are not wasting procs because you are deciding to pool them. I'm not sure if lich took the "usage" into account when he runned the sim. Because turning it into an autopilot just for the sake of "how many procs one can squeeze into the rotation" .. lets face, what's the difference between that and RE/RC?

And if you pool the charges, you are not only with a lower DS/min but also sacrificing procs.
Edited by Eflow on 4/3/2012 3:59 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
So if I use BT and it restores a blood-slot rune (that is recharging as a blood rune), if I use that rune on DS, will that rune refresh as a blood rune or a death rune?

e.g.:
xx / Fx / xx ==> BT ==> xD / Fx / xx ==> DS ==> recharge ==> xD? / Dx / xx
or will the last one be xB / Dx / xx

edit: What is your opinion on extending the charge cap to 9?
Edited by Euliat on 4/3/2012 4:49 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Death Knight
15670
I have a blood depleted rune, i use BT, it reseted said rune to Death (so you can use it). You use the death rune .. then it refreshes back as blood.

in your example, after using DS your result would be xB / Dx / xx.

It's always: X rune -> D rune -> Back to X.
And not like on live that is: X rune -> D rune -> back to D rune for a few seconds.

9 charges would be okayish.. not sure if it would fix. I'd have to test it.
Edited by Eflow on 4/3/2012 6:22 PM PDT
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85 Undead Death Knight
5765
I really don't see the new Scent of Blood working out well in any way shape or form. Especially not if the heal effects Blood Shield (unlike say, increased healing from Vampiric Blood). I really hope they listen in Beta and it doesn't make it live this time. I mean, this is just ripe for a QoL drop back to T12, or at the very least T11.

Welcome to active-r mitigation.
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90 Troll Death Knight
0
04/03/2012 06:23 PMPosted by Corpseicle
I really don't see the new Scent of Blood working out well in any way shape or form. Especially not if the heal effects Blood Shield (unlike say, increased healing from Vampiric Blood). I really hope they listen in Beta and it doesn't make it live this time. I mean, this is just ripe for a QoL drop back to T12, or at the very least T11.


What don't you like about it? and im fairly certain the buff affects blood shield.

Its really just a stand in for the lack of improved DS and to make hit/exp desirable.
Edited by Deathtime on 4/3/2012 6:27 PM PDT
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85 Undead Death Knight
5765
04/03/2012 06:25 PMPosted by Deathtime
I really don't see the new Scent of Blood working out well in any way shape or form. Especially not if the heal effects Blood Shield (unlike say, increased healing from Vampiric Blood). I really hope they listen in Beta and it doesn't make it live this time. I mean, this is just ripe for a QoL drop back to T12, or at the very least T11.


What don't you like about it? and im fairly certain the buff affects blood shield.

Its really just a stand in for the lack of improved DS and to make hit/exp desirable.


Because depending on tuning it will either be completely ignored, or make timing DS have nothing to do with personal play-style and what's going on in the encounter but rather something you hit at five stacks or lose DS/min and overall mitigation, ON TOP of trying to maximize DS usage as we do now. This seems to be in direct opposition of Blizzards intended goals. And/or three, which would probably happen in combination with these two, it would create a horrible QoLy mess that would either be ridiculously overpowered at the highest level or incredibly difficult if not impossible to manage and for at best average or lower than gain. I.e.... Blood DK's up until 4.3.
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85 Worgen Death Knight
10585
04/03/2012 07:39 PMPosted by Corpseicle


What don't you like about it? and im fairly certain the buff affects blood shield.

Its really just a stand in for the lack of improved DS and to make hit/exp desirable.


Because depending on tuning it will either be completely ignored, or make timing DS have nothing to do with personal play-style and what's going on in the encounter but rather something you hit at five stacks or lose DS/min and overall mitigation, ON TOP of trying to maximize DS usage as we do now. This seems to be in direct opposition of Blizzards intended goals. And/or three, which would probably happen in combination with these two, it would create a horrible QoLy mess that would either be ridiculously overpowered at the highest level or incredibly difficult if not impossible to manage and for at best average or lower than gain. I.e.... Blood DK's up until 4.3.


From what I've seen on streams (no beta invite yet qq) DK's are still just shot gunning DS and its an average of 3 stacks when they do so, waiting 2 more auto attacks for a big heal/shield would probably be something you'd watch on a tank swap when you aren't getting hit and just play as per usual when you are.

I agree it might end up being yet another thing to watch for while tanking but that isn't anything new for blood.
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90 Troll Death Knight
0
Even if it ends up being ignored (it probably will) It will still provide a massive amount of runic power compared to the current version. And since its on our melee swings rather than on dodging/parrying atacks, our dps will not suffer as much when not actively tanking. I do think they should drop the max number of stacks though to 3.
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