MoP Blood DK Discussion

85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5940
05/04/2012 10:21 PMPosted by Euliat
That being said, I don't think modifying RE itself is necessarily the way to go. I think the underlying problem is and always has been that not every rune is equally useful.


I think there are two separate problems with RE. The one that applies to both Blood and Unholy is more or less a QoL issue: no one likes rune tetris. Numerically, I'm not sure that Unholy actually suffers from taking RE, since they have a 1 GCD and in theory at least rune-gaming should rarely if ever interfere with their ability to use powers before they overpool.

The second problem is Blood specific, and that's the fact that RE forces you to keep your Frost and Unholy runes on cooldown. For Blood, using runes at specific times can be very useful. In the event that all three options are actually viable for the two DPS trees (although maybe Blood Tap actually isn't for Frost?), and BT and RC are both viable for Blood, I think you're at the point where that's as good as you're going to get.

Unholy has to keep their valuable runes on cooldown too of course, but for a DPS spec it doesn't really matter when you use the runes as long as they get used before they get full. I'm really bad at doing this stuff in my head, but activating a U rune should be more valuable than a D rune since you're refilling the energy bar that always gets used for SS rather than the one that only gets used for it half the time. I wouldn't be surprised if RE actually ends up being the numerically superior choice for Unholy for the same reason that it gives slightly more Death Strikes to Blood. I could be wrong about recharging U being more valuable than recharging D though.

Edit: To sum up, having runes be of unequal value actually improves the raw mathematical power of RE, it doesn't decrease it. If you have a system that regens all runes equally and a system where you get to choose which runes you regen, and they have the same overall regen, the system where you get to choose wins. Blood specifically has considerations that make this not quite work (since Death Strike's power fluctuates rapidly with time), but Unholy doesn't.
Edited by Anothriel on 5/4/2012 11:07 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
05/04/2012 11:04 PMPosted by Anothriel
In the event that all three options are actually viable for the two DPS trees (although maybe Blood Tap actually isn't for Frost?), and BT and RC are both viable for Blood, I think you're at the point where that's as good as you're going to get.


This is basically how I feel, but, obviously, I don't have any numbers to actually validate that that is true for DPS specs. Whether they change RE or not, I don't plan on taking it for tanking unless it's just stupidly overpowered (in which case I'd advocate to nerf it).

05/04/2012 11:04 PMPosted by Anothriel
Edit: To sum up, having runes be of unequal value actually improves the raw mathematical power of RE, it doesn't decrease it. If you have a system that regens all runes equally and a system where you get to choose which runes you regen, and they have the same overall regen, the system where you get to choose wins. Blood specifically has considerations that make this not quite work (since Death Strike's power fluctuates rapidly with time), but Unholy doesn't.


I think having unequal does improve it to a point. Maybe it's just because I really don't have any exposure to RE as a DPS (I play Unholy), but when you're specifically trying to max the throughput of certain runes, at least for Blood, your throughput of the unwanted rune inevitably suffers. It's great if that rune isn't worth anything, but (again, for Blood), you use the rune you're prioritizing just as often as you use it with BT, and you use like 30% less of those unwanted runes in the process. If that same ratio carries over to a DPS class, then that's not worth it.

Of course, now all of this talk is making me want to go look at those for DPS classes, but I think I'm not in the right state of mind to understand how much work that will be even though I have the framework set.

I'll rerun RE without any gaming tomorrow (but I'll put a check to make sure RS's aren't wasted from no depleteds this time), and that will maybe give us a better picture. I'll also look at Frost/Unholy rotation/abilities/procs and whatnot to see if I can come up with some kind of formula to compare the two like the one I have for Blood.
Edited by Euliat on 5/5/2012 12:23 AM PDT
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5940
I think having unequal does improve it to a point. Maybe it's just because I really don't have any exposure to RE as a DPS (I play Unholy), but when you're specifically trying to max the throughput of certain runes, at least for Blood, your throughput of the unwanted rune inevitably suffers. It's great if that rune isn't worth anything, but (again, for Blood), you use the rune you're prioritizing just as often as you use it with BT, and you use like 30% less of those unwanted runes in the process. If that same ratio carries over to a DPS class, then that's not worth it.


I don't think it works like that. RE doesn't actually reduce the number of undesirable runes you use, it just increases the number of desirable runes you use. Unless I'm missing something, in a hypothetical world where we had no regen talent at all, we would use the same number of Blood runes as we do with RE (ignoring how Blood Tap works on live, of course).
Reply Quote
90 Troll Death Knight
0
When your gaming RE for runes you want you'll inevitably lose some runes from not allowing runes you dont like to be on CD at the same time.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5940
05/05/2012 01:39 AMPosted by Deathtime
When your gaming RE for runes you want you'll inevitably lose some runes from not allowing runes you dont like to be on CD at the same time.


That's definitely true for Blood. Is it true for Unholy with a 1 second GCD though?
Reply Quote
90 Night Elf Death Knight
7165
05/05/2012 01:39 AMPosted by Deathtime
When your gaming RE for runes you want you'll inevitably lose some runes from not allowing runes you dont like to be on CD at the same time.


Did I miss something?

On live you can leave one B rune active and consume it a half second(or longer, if you can then DS before RS) before the other recharges. If done right you get exactly 1 B rune consumed every 8 seconds, the default rune regen rate for Blood. The only B runes you "lose" are potential runes not refreshing from RE, but I don't think that RE blindly tries to refresh a rune and it if happens to pick Blood you're just screwed - otherwise why would we game them in the first place?
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
Theoretically, yes, you don't have to sacrifice the other rune.

Between GCDs, using late RS's (for whatever reason; SoB RP, F/U runes right about to recharge) to proc F/U, procs themselves, delayed DS's (due to miss/dodge/parry provided it is a bug), and natural regeneration timers, there is definitely going to be some loss.

My sim isn't doing everything possible to minimize that because I think that extreme attention to rune timers is unrealistic. I can code in a check to see if the charging pair has less than a GCD on it, in which case it will use the other blood rune, but, again, I don't think that's realistic behavior.

Right now, it will only use a blood rune if the other blood rune is not charging. And that's almost like dead last on the priority.

edit: I should specify that that blood rune behavior is exclusive to RE. RC/BT do not behave that way.

Since it's probably long overdue, I'll post the source up later today.
Edited by Euliat on 5/5/2012 10:40 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
Source code:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1OFculIkSsyV1PoWepILnTZbADPR8W2g2yc9qUTi-8tA/edit

As a note, that document is huge (26 pages). Up until page 7, most of it is just declarations.

Some really important notes in case you miss them in the comments (green):
-CurrentBlood/Frost/Unholy is the current active respective slots.
-CurrentDeath is how many active death runes there are.
-A time of 75 (sim) corresponds to 0.75s (real-time).
-I left all of my debugging lines in out of laziness. None of them are used because they don't happen, but I leave them in there to see if they do start happening again after I make a change.
-For those who code in C, in MATLAB, switch cases automatically break at the end of the case.
-The priority is simply the order of evaluations in "function Priority()"
-Speaking of the priority, the first 5 seconds don't use the exact priority, but this impact is minimal.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
05/05/2012 12:21 AMPosted by Euliat
I'll rerun RE without any gaming tomorrow (but I'll put a check to make sure RS's aren't wasted from no depleteds this time), and that will maybe give us a better picture.


Since I did this sort of test for the other setups for 100m, this test is also for 100m. Just divide the results by 10 if you want to see how they compare to the 10m tests.

I also disabled Heroism, PL, and Glyph of Outbreak to make the math verification on my part simpler.

RE (no gaming, check depleteds):
Rune Refreshes: 2121 + 702 (RE) = 2823
RP Generated: 47041
DS's landed: 970
RS's landed: 1567
RE procs: 702
Pure Blood runes used: 712 (HS) + 177 (RT) = 889
Outbreak's landed: 99

For reference, here is RC:
RC:
Rune Refreshes: 2888 = 2888
RP Generated: 47565
DS's landed: 975
RS's landed: 1585
RC Procs: 703
Pure Blood runes used: 753 (HS) + 192 (RT) = 945
Outbreak's landed: 99

Does that look right? Well, let's see (if you don't care about the verification then just stop reading now and save yourself time). Since the WoW forums code block will probably make this work really difficult to follow, I just did it in Word using equations.

You can see my work here:
http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee434/euliat-wow/SimVsTheoretical/RPWork.png

Assumptions:
-Each rune type is always cooling (ie. no waste)
-GCDs are not an issue
-Horn of Winter is used on CD

The RPMultiplier term comes from summing an infinite geometric series. If you get an RE proc, that gives you a rune, which gives you more RP, which, in turn, leads to more procs, which lead to more runes, ... and so on.

I did an example for RE, but not for RC. The primary difference for RC is that the "RunesRestored / NumProcs" term is different. Its value is
3 / (10 / 1.2) * 3 = 1.08, so 1.08 Runes / 1 Proc

This brings the predicted RC to 51233 RP.

Again, my sim uses RT about twice a minute. That's going to knock off ~2k RP. This puts me within ~5% of the value, so I don't find anything to be unusual.

To calculate the expected DS use, grab the RP_Generated value and multiply it by (RPMultiplier / 10). This is the runes restored by the procs. Of those, we'll need just the F/U/D runes, so multiply by 2/3 for RC/RE (remember, no gaming), and 1 for BT. The base number of runes regenerated is simply Time / (10 / 1.2) * 2. Again, we only want F/U/D, which is why there is a 2, not a 3. If you sum all of the procced runes with the normally regenerated runes (including Blood), then this number should come out to be pretty close to the total runes regenerated. Specifically, for DS, though, divide the sum of F+U by 2.

For RE, I get 972 DS / min.
For RC, I get 996 DS / min.

Both of those are pretty close to the reality if you ask me, so, everything seems to be working pretty well. The error probably comes from the assumptions (and not factoring RT).

edit: the reason for including this analysis is because it should be generalizable enough for Frost/Unholy, provided you get the RP_Generated equation down right (e.g. DW Frost/2H Unholy don't get RP from auto-attacks, so you'd remove that term; they have procs, so you'd add some more, and so on).
Edited by Euliat on 5/5/2012 1:29 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
Tangent, but whatever.

05/05/2012 01:13 PMPosted by Euliat
edit: the reason for including this analysis is because it should be generalizable enough for Frost/Unholy, provided you get the RP_Generated equation down right (e.g. DW Frost/2H Unholy don't get RP from auto-attacks, so you'd remove that term; they have procs, so you'd add some more, and so on).


Assuming that to be a reasonable model and that you could follow what I did, these are what Frost's and Unholy's RP_Generated equations look like.

Frost, 2H:
http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee434/euliat-wow/SimVsTheoretical/2HFrostRPWork.png

Frost, DW:
http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee434/euliat-wow/SimVsTheoretical/DWFrostRPWork.png

Unholy:
http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee434/euliat-wow/SimVsTheoretical/UnholyRPWork2.png

Couple of notes:
1. Again, assumptions are very important. These are the original ones:
-Each rune type is always cooling (ie. no waste)
-GCDs are not an issue
-Horn of Winter is used on CD

These are the new ones:
(Frost): Can actually utilize all runes equally
(Unholy): No pooling RP before DT
(Unholy): SD is assumed to have a base PPM of 3 (how it is on Live)

2. BaseSwingTimer cancels out for Unholy due to SD being on a PPM system.
3. In 2H Frost, the 1.5 right after the BaseSwingTimer term is because each auto-attack generates 15 RP. 10 * 1.5 = 15
4. The examples are just examples and not intended to necessarily be representative of anything.
5. I don't really have any way to verify the accuracy of these equations. I'm guessing that the assumptions will really wreak havoc on their accuracy.

Just by looking at it, before you consider 2H Frost in FP, its RP generation is already absolutely ridiculous. 100% proc chance on MotFW for 15 RP is absolutely ridiculous. That alone generates more RP as DW itself!

edit: Regarding #5, the equations could probably be reworked slightly (to make them the Live versions) and then verified with something like SimCraft.
Edited by Euliat on 5/13/2012 11:24 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
05/04/2012 05:13 PMPosted by Deathtime
Occasionally the runes that were on CD from missed/dodged/parried attacks will just reset and be available for use. This happens quite frequently but much less than the way I have been describing it. I would say this happens ~30% of the time while the other happens 70% of the time. I haven't figured out why this happens and its odd behavior makes me think that all of this is a bug.


Think you could try and figure the cause of this more specifically?

I'm going to put the other rune cooldown stuff in an alternate version of my sim to see what affect it has later tonight. If you can't figure out the cause, then I'll just leave it out.
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
05/04/2012 05:13 PMPosted by Deathtime
It always inherits the CD of its pair and if the other of the pair is not cooling down then it will be available immediately. For Example both my blood runes are fully charged and I my heart strike is dodged/parried/missed, then the rune I attempted to use will be available again immediately. AKA the other rune has 0s on its cooldown so the one you attempted to use will inherit its 0s cooldown.


04/13/2012 09:15 AMPosted by Deathtime
Clarification: If you miss with an ability it will gain the recharge time of the other rune in its pair. If that other rune is not recharging than you will have to wait the full recharge time though this part is not being consistant.


So, which is it? :P

The second quoted post was made quite a bit before the first one, so something may have changed between beta builds.

edit: And what happens with death runes?

e.g.
If I use DS, and it misses, do they come back as death runes or normal runes? If I use an ability with a death rune, does it come back as a death rune, or the normal version?
Edited by Euliat on 5/7/2012 3:14 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Troll Death Knight
0
I think the more recent one is correct but I will check to make sure. Ill have an answer in a few min.

Edit: Yes, if neither rune is on cooldown and you are dodged parried or miss then the rune you attempted to spend will be available immediately
Edited by Deathtime on 5/7/2012 3:21 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
And, although this one will be harder to test,

Let's say you have your two blood runes, one with 8s on the CD, and the other you just used.

So, now they're both at 8s.

Which, if any, is considered "fully depleted?"
Reply Quote
85 Orc Death Knight
8105
And, although this one will be harder to test,

Let's say you have your two blood runes, one with 8s on the CD, and the other you just used.

So, now they're both at 8s.

Which, if any, is considered "fully depleted?"


Using a blood tap spec the rune with the longest cooldown remaining was refreshed
  • 2 Blood runes: longer remaining cooldown blood rune refreshed
  • 2 Death runes: longer remaining cooldown Death rune refreshed
  • 2 Death+2 Blood: Longer duration Blood rune refreshed. <--this is important to note.
  • With careful use of one charge of blood tap I got the blood rune cooldown to swap from the normal priority (rune #1 ususally used first) this resulted in the Blood rune with the longer cooldown remaing to regen, as opposed to just the same rune refreshing.
    Reply Quote
    90 Draenei Death Knight
    11090
    But in the scenario I described where you have 2 blood runes (and just 2 blood runes) both cooling down now with a CD of 8s, how do you distinguish which one has a "longer" cooldown? Going by the information I have been given, they should have the exact same cooldown. So, is it the one that was most recently used?
    Edited by Euliat on 5/7/2012 4:05 PM PDT
    Reply Quote
    90 Troll Death Knight
    0
    Neither are considered fully depleted.

    Hmm I had to test this as frost since I cant find the reagent to change talents with and as frost runes aren't acting the same. They are displaying the same but if say my frost and unholy runes are recharging at the same time from a landed and then missed obliterate, then I can still attempt to use the runes from the missed obliterate. I went back to blood to double check and in that same scenario I cannot attempt to use the runes from the missed attack.

    Also I figured out what causes the runes to reset. To reset runes from missed attacks you have to spend a rune. It does not have to be an offensive ability aka rune tap works. I tried to see if an offensive attack had to land to do this but as you can probably guess that requires a lot of luck and probably sacrifices to the RNG gods.

    Edit: Oh god, rng was on my side today,

    The attack does not have to land for it to reset the runes from the previous missed attacks.

    Edit2: Now that I think about it, I kind of want to retry the original test as blood when I can change my talents over to blood tap. If anyone can point me in the direction of a way to get the tome of a clear mind or some other way to switch my talents, I would be most thankful.

    Edit3: I think I know where a vendor is new test results soon.
    Edited by Deathtime on 5/7/2012 4:19 PM PDT
    Reply Quote
    90 Draenei Death Knight
    11090
    Also I figured out what causes the runes to reset. To reset runes from missed attacks you have to spend a rune. It does not have to be an offensive ability aka rune tap works. I tried to see if an offensive attack had to land to do this but as you can probably guess that requires a lot of luck and probably sacrifices to the RNG gods.

    Edit: Oh god, rng was on my side today,

    The attack does not have to land for it to reset the runes from the previous missed attacks.


    Then it's a display bug.

    The rune is active but your client says it isn't. When you use an ability, it updates your runes and the server tells you you have that rune again, so it appears to have randomly "refreshed." If I remember correctly, spell costs are done client-side, so if your client says you don't have the resources, it doesn't try to use it.

    You can see if Horn of Winter also triggers this update.
    Edited by Euliat on 5/7/2012 4:18 PM PDT
    Reply Quote
    90 Troll Death Knight
    0
    Then why isnt it working the same for frost? If its as you say it is then all the specs would be affected but it appears that frost isnt.
    Reply Quote
    90 Draenei Death Knight
    11090
    The most obvious reason would be that I could be wrong. :P
    Reply Quote

    Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

    Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

    Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

    Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

    Forums Code of Conduct

    Report Post # written by

    Reason
    Explain (256 characters max)
    Submit Cancel

    Reported!

    [Close]