MoP Blood DK Discussion

85 Blood Elf Mage
2595
Edit- herp derp double post.
Edited by Kigaltan on 7/16/2012 7:11 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
Can't say for sure. Haven't simmed pure Blood DPS.

Blood tanking DPS, however, is something I'll have up later tonight.


I wasn't clear- I did mean Blood tanking DPS. When leveling through cataclysm dungeons, I'm seeing 81 and 82 Blood DK's pulling 14k or 15k DPS. Is that a thing that will keep happening?


Not sure if you're aware, but you double posted.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
Copying and pasting my post over from MMO-C.

Blood DPS is done.

The gear being used can be seen here:
http://mop.wowhead.com/compare?items=87160:87063:86946:86968:87035:86921:87060:86919:87001:86918:86980:86922:87148:86920:87176

As a note, I have no idea how mastery/dodge/parry ratings stack up with each other (I have a theory), so I just left them un-reforged. They won't affect DPS, anyway. The boss is doing enough damage to Vengeance cap the DK tank very quickly. The specific damage is not important.

Comments:

Blood is doing about 1/2 the DPS of a normal DPS spec. This lines up with what it was previously at i463 compared to i463 DPS. Thus, you should have no problems holding single-target threat.

SR is a pretty huge DPS increase over HS. There is no special rune pooling or logic when it comes to HS. If a pure blood rune is up, and RT is cooling, then SR is cast. For RE, RE is gamed flawlessly, which includes all the rune stipulations there. SR is cast roughly 50% of the max possible times.

Execute DPS is about 30% higher than pre-execute DPS. That's a pretty large jump. I have no clue where other tanks rank in terms of total damage dealt, though.

Here are the two sims I ran. I'm not going to tell you which is which (but you can just read the titles and figure out), or you can try to actually figure it out by looking at the data. Hint: don't look at the Quick Comparison. One of them does not have the HS/DS change, and the other does.

Blood 1: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgEwKT9377f3dGRQV1VKVnhNcWpmUldKM0J4UENaZ0E
Blood 2: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgEwKT9377f3dENnc0RxOXkwRzI3bU9maE14Ulc5U0E

Basically, the only reason your DPS went up is because of SR. The HS/DS change is DPS-neutral. It simply shifts the %damage dealt by HS and DS. It turns out that "Blood 1" is the correct (current) sheet if you couldn't figure it out.

Not glyphing Outbreak is universally a DPS increase. There isn't a single exception. These setups completely ignore FF (sub-35% uptime generally). Glyphed Outbreak setups have 95%+ on both. Interestingly and comically enough, glyphed Outbreak setups have ~11% of their DPS come from diseases. That's 50% more DPS from diseases than Unholy.

RC also seems to produce the highest DPS, although this has no effect on SR use (but, again, no prioritization is used). I can very easily see with blood rune pooling that RC would lead to the highest DPS, as you use RE/BT procs on F/U, not B, and RC still affects B. However, of course, RE/BT setups can just as easily pool blood runes, but RE/BT would not directly increase blood rune throughput.

You'll have to look at the individual sheets if you really want this figure, but DS does around 18-22% of your DPS, and HS does somewhere within 7-10% (regeneration tier being the deciding factor).

Tanking source:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xl3XyIXHRZzH-WdnWPKU_fw7MgHBeZufsl0fV00J1Qo/edit
Edited by Euliat on 7/16/2012 2:18 AM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
8390
Posted in the feedback thread
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90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
AoE analysis:

The work: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1101556-DK-MoP-Beta-Class-Changes?p=17590317&viewfull=1#post17590317

edit: I should note that I define "AoE TPS" to be strictly from DnD and diseases. When I say just "AoE," I am referring to the entire package.

The conclusion:
Implications:

n < 4, use HS.
n > 4, use BB.

You will have to use tab.

Tab spamming RS/DS is something you're expected to do. Without tab spamming, you will have trouble holding threat over the full single-target nuke of a DPS class. Although the averages say that it is possible when DnD is up, averages do not take into account to discreteness of threat generation (i.e. ticks timers, crits, misses, etc.). Without DnD up, if you do not tab spam, there is no hope for you (but that's your fault).

Using DnD nearly doubles your AoE TPS for its duration. Thus, not having DnD up is a serious TPS hit. Your AoE TPS without DnD is abysmal (45k-ish). It's barely over 50% of the DPS of the simmed DPS DK specs.

If I throw RS/DS into the Active equation with the same assumptions as HS (term: 97k / n TPS) to look at something more real, with DnD up, your threat should be more than fine.

It's only when DnD isn't up that there might be problem. I have no idea what DPS are supposed to be doing at this gear level, which makes it impossible to say if we need a buff here or not. Every sim result that I've seen regarding single-target DPS for classes is wildly different (60k, 70k, 80k, 110k).

However, I can make these claims:

1. Blood's AoE overall seems pretty lackluster. The bulk of your threat comes from a spell that can only be used once per 30s, that ticks for 10s.

2. Too much of Blood's AoE comes from rune-based attacks. What's important to note here is that, for tanking, the rune system is very rigid. Our low EH combined with the delayed style of mitigation of our mastery mandates that we use DS, since AoE packs generally hit hard and fast (individually, they're not so bad). Previously, the rune/RP ratio wasn't that big of a deal because we all had to deal with it, but now that T75 exists, it is a big deal. RE/BT do not get the blood rune advantage that RC has, which makes them do even less threat (they use blood runes 75% as much as RC). However, RE/RC/BT setups all generate about the same RP, which means RP costs do not favor any setup in general (make it proc RE/RC/BT--this is a must for tanking). Pooling RP is also considerably simpler than pooling runes and has a much lower possibility of wasting resources (due to constant rune regeneration).

3. If DPS are expected to do more than 75k DPS at i509/502, then DK tanks need an AoE threat increase because holding threat without DnD up will be very iffy even with tab spamming RS/DS. Yes, if we can use DnD, it will buy us time later (about 7s, assuming no incidental AoE at all from the DPS. Hint: this is a bad assumption.) into the fight, but there are plenty of examples of streaming adds. At 75k DPS, RE/BT setups will need to use death runes on HS/BB. Given that my i463 results were also doing about half as much DPS as the i463 DPS DKs, I'd expect the i463 number to be around 45-50k DPS for that threshold.
Edited by Euliat on 7/16/2012 11:17 PM PDT
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85 Night Elf Warrior
0
I'm starting to think that Blood desperately needs a passive Crimson Scourge like talent added back in to make AoE less frustrating and less tied down by Death and Decay.

Crimson Scourge - Whenever your Heart Strike or Blood Boil ability strikes three or more targets, you have a 50% chance per disease on the targets damaged to instantly refresh a blood rune. This effect cannot occur more than once every 6 seconds.

Then again, they could simply embrace DKs making excessive use of Death and Decay as part of their AoE routine and move on (not unlike Paladins now and their Constant Consecration). Something like:

Crimson Scourge - Whenever your Heart Strike or Blood Boil ability strike a target, you have a 25% chance per disease on the target to refresh the cooldown on your Death and Decay ability and grant 25% rune haste for 6 seconds. This effect cannot occur more than once every 15 seconds.
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86 Night Elf Death Knight
0
While a Crimson Scourge mechanic would not go amiss, I'm not too much of a fan of those mechanics you put forward Feandel. Refreshed rune sounds too much like the old WotN proc, and should be treated as such (as a free BB or HS, rather than a free Blood rune), and the second idea would give far too much burst AoE to Blood, giving us that ability to frontload two DnDs.
A better design IMO would be the old CS proc (but, tie it to FF as BP already gives WB) tied to an ability that lowered the CD of DnD by 0.25 or 0.5 seconds (numbers pulled out of the proverbial) per target (or disease - I do like that mechanic) hit by HS or BB.
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85 Tauren Death Knight
9900
I think a tank being balanced around a strong execute phase is a really bad idea. It will cause us a great deal of problems with initial threat (especially in 5 mans) and in any tank swaps where we have to compete with a tank whose damage is more frontloaded.

I would be quite content if they made SR frost/unholy only and just balanced us around that. It wasn't a huge deal when it was a death rune and most blood dks wouldn't have used it because it competed with deathstrike, but making it a blood rune we can easily use it and have to be balanced around it.
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85 Tauren Death Knight
9900
I also have an idea and was curious to see what the community thought of it. From what I have read every blood dk on the beta has complained about downtime, aoe threat, overall damage, and lack of resources to pick up unexpected or streaming adds.

What if Blizzard were to -for blood only- change blood boil to cost no runes, award no runic power and have a 3-6 second cooldown?

This would give us a button to push during downtime on single target and give us a very slight damage buff. It would help us in aoe as we could use blood runes on heartstrike and still be able to throw out some blood boils. We would have an aoe available on a regular basis for streaming adds. It would also have almost no pvp ramifications because it would add nothing to our burst damage and only to our sustained.

Thoughts?
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64 Draenei Death Knight
10235
To be honest, just switching back to the 1.5 second GCD would greatly reduce the feel of downtime.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
I would prefer to keep the 1s GCD. Yes, there's more time spent not doing anything... but it also means we burst better, and it gives us more flexibility to weave utility powers in, and it makes sure we scale well with raid haste buffs like heroism or encounter gimmicks.

1s GC is, IMO, one of the better things to happen to Blood.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
Switching Blood Boil to RP, increasing its damage (to a 50% AP coefficient or so when diseased), and placing a 6s CD on it would probably be fine. [edit: but this could have some unintended ramifications for Frost. Unholy's AoE needs help, if anything]

Given that they don't see Blood DK DPS as a problem, the most likely fix they would do is revert the GCD. Decreasing downtime obviously comes from increasing ability usage, which would mean increasing DPS (without modifying coefficients).
Edited by Euliat on 7/18/2012 9:19 AM PDT
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85 Night Elf Warrior
0
While a Crimson Scourge mechanic would not go amiss, I'm not too much of a fan of those mechanics you put forward Feandel. Refreshed rune sounds too much like the old WotN proc, and should be treated as such (as a free BB or HS, rather than a free Blood rune), and the second idea would give far too much burst AoE to Blood, giving us that ability to frontload two DnDs.
A better design IMO would be the old CS proc (but, tie it to FF as BP already gives WB) tied to an ability that lowered the CD of DnD by 0.25 or 0.5 seconds (numbers pulled out of the proverbial) per target (or disease - I do like that mechanic) hit by HS or BB.


Version one is simply a ~25% increase in in BB/HS usage but only in a AoE situation. I can't count how many times I've been able to strike 3 targets with heart strike when I *wasn't* AoE-tanking. And under 3 targets there's no need for additional blood runes.

Version two is the "Yup, you're going to be using Death and Decay all the time...and because we're not stupid, here's the extra rune refreshes to support that too" idea. Although admittedly, it should probably be restricted to just Blood Boil as trigger in retrospect. You'll only use BB in 4 or more scenarios, and with 3 or less Heart Strike does a fairly good job without any additional changes. But then, restricting it to *just* Blood Boil creates a complicated interactions between when you BB for the extra DnDs and just Heart Strike for the job. But hey, if they changed their minds and Paladins are back to Constant Consecration...

-edit-
And the problem with the *old* Crimson Scourge was that the proc rate was abysmal and it did virtually nothing to help with the problem it was designed to address.
Edited by Feandel on 7/18/2012 11:01 AM PDT
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