Replace Spell Reflection's shield requirment

90 Human Warrior
14180
After looking through some of the MoP information I was bummed to find out the Spell Reflection still requires shields.

I know that the MoP talent Mass Spell Reflection (MSR) recently had its Shied Requirement removed as well as becoming unlinked from SR to make it a more compelling choice for DPS Warriors, (Great change) and some people will say that if you want a shieldless Spell Reflect just take the talent, but you need to keep in mind it’s not a choice between reg SR and MSR but a choice between MSR and the other talents in the part of the Tree. (Safeguard & Vigilance) And it should not need a talent to cover up for the (unintended) flaws in a ability.

Another issue is the massive amount of bugs and glitches the act of shield swapping creates. I'm sure allot of of warriors have that PvP have used a Spell Reflect Macro when a Mage is casting Pollymorph only to have it go off after you have been turned into a sheep. This is because of the lag that happens when you swap to shield, sending a message to the server that you have equipped a shield then actually equipping a shield then sending a message that it's ok to cast Spell Reflection. It will also lock you out if you are in the middle melee attack, preventing weapon swaps and adding more time to the macro. Not exactly a good way to code an ability.

Some would say that not needing a shield requirement would lower the skill needed to play a warrior. To them I say, writing a macro and pressing a button twice to get a skill to work is not, nor has it ever been, skill.

There is also the minor issues of having to re-write a macro every time you get a shield/1hander upgrade. Or that you have to spend VP/JP/HP/CP/gold on 2 pieces of gear your spec is not designed to use just so you can use one of your most basic class defenses.

And if it does turn out that the move Spell Reflection is to strong without a shield requirement, Rename it Spell Deflection where it does not send the spell back or just remove the dang thing and give us something else.

As for Shield Wall, it can go Prot only now that we have Die by the Sword :D That kind of move is EXACTLY what the class needs. I would also like to give Prot Die by the Sword so they have another nice CD to press.

BTW if a Beta player could post the issue in the beta class forum that would be great.

Thoughts? Opinions? Green tea?
Edited by Drede on 5/14/2012 2:06 AM PDT
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90 Goblin Warlock
0
The only thing I really agree on is the fact that warriors have to purchase extra gear to use some cds that they are balanced around. However, warriors are looking to be in a very nice spot so far so really other than the cost which I guess they could just give the shield for free when you purchase a 2h, I have no qualms about the shield requirement.
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85 Draenei Priest
2060
Spell reflection doesn't make sense flavor-wise without a shield. They should just make it prot-only, and balance accordingly. It would definitely be overpowered if it were not limited.

Not only does it prevent an incoming nuke or CC on yourself, but you in effect make your opponent waste a GCD (minimum), waste resources, potentially waste cooldowns and even open themselves to interruption just so they can nail themselves in the face with their own crap. It's quite the advantage shift. Your "deflection" idea is more reasonable, but there are enough stuns and interrupts already...being able to easily deflect on cooldown while still maintaining a strong offense and all those anti-caster tools would make warriors even more nightmarish for any caster that isn't a mage.
Edited by Blacktide on 4/9/2012 2:05 PM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
14180
04/09/2012 02:05 PMPosted by Blacktide
Spell reflection doesn't make sense flavor-wise without a shield. They should just make it prot-only, and balance accordingly. It would definitely be overpowered if it were not limited.


Removing the shield requirement would not change how often we can use it, how we use it, or why we use it. The only thing it would change is remove the bugs and glitches with weapon swapping and increase our melee damage by letting us keep our 2 hander(s).

In other words you wouldn't notice.

04/09/2012 02:05 PMPosted by Blacktide
Not only does it prevent an incoming nuke or CC on yourself, but you in effect make your opponent waste a GCD (minimum), waste resources, potentially waste cooldowns and even open themselves to interruption just so they can nail themselves in the face with their own crap. It's quite the advantage shift.


The shield requirement does not change this. And as long as imps and water elementals remove it we stand to lose more.

The only thing I really agree on is the fact that warriors have to purchase extra gear to use some cds that they are balanced around. However, warriors are looking to be in a very nice spot so far so really other than the cost which I guess they could just give the shield for free when you purchase a 2h, I have no qualms about the shield requirement.


You need a 1 hander as well or the macro won't work. I highly doubt they would give 2 free pieces of gear. It would be unfair to pallys who want to dual spec when a warrior can just get the pieces needed.

It would also not fix the bugs and glitches.
Edited by Drede on 4/9/2012 3:36 PM PDT
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85 Human Warrior
2485
I disagree- quicker spell reflects is an advantage prot has, and it should stay that way. Especially now that it will stop 2 spells with talents- I see no problem with requiring arms warriors to be quick on the draw to stop that first spell. It most definitely can be done and is done all the time.

Warriors look to be in a very, very good spot in MoP compared to live. Double charge, 30 second heroic leap cd with glyph, followed by 20 yard range piercing howl, 30 second immunity to movement impairing effects from Avatar, OP dragon roar, 1 min cd fear, etc etc.

I just hope we keep most of those buffs, not really worried about asking for more.
Edited by Finelor on 4/9/2012 2:39 PM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
14180
04/09/2012 02:35 PMPosted by Finelor
I disagree- quicker spell reflects is an advantage prot has, and it should stay that way. Especially now that it will stop 2 spells with talents- I see no problem with requiring arms warriors to be quick on the draw to stop that first spell. It most definitely can be done and is done all the time.


Except that it's not just a prot move and Mass Spell Reflection is a talent all specs get but only 1 can use it in PvE. And being quick on the draw does not stop bugs and glitches.

04/09/2012 02:35 PMPosted by Finelor
Warriors look to be in a very, very good spot in MoP compared to live. Double charge, 30 second heroic leap cd with glyph, followed by 20 yard range piercing howl, 30 second immunity to movement impairing effects from Avatar, OP dragon roar, 1 min cd fear, etc etc.


And that has no bearing on letting the move remain in the sad state it's in.

04/09/2012 02:35 PMPosted by Finelor
I just hope we keep most of those buffs, not really worried about asking for more
It all depends how much the other classes get.
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85 Draenei Priest
2060
04/09/2012 02:23 PMPosted by Drede
increase our melee damage


Doesn't it reset the swing timer and such too? Can it currently be used while disarmed, and what about if the shield req was removed? To me it seems like Blizz put limitations there on purpose. People found a workaround via swap macro and it turned an interesting decision into a minor hiccup, but I don't think that means Blizz intends for you to beat on casters full-bore while pummeling, stunning, AND reflecting them. Increasing damage is not a neutral QoL change.

Most of what you responded to, isn't what was being stated. I don't know why you brought up the Deflection option in your OP if you weren't at all prepared for anyone to agree with that section.
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90 Goblin Warlock
0
Cant you macro an unequip? I've never tried really. This is in reference to needing a 1h. I know you can have a shield alone, but can you macro just to remove 2h then eq shield?
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90 Human Warrior
14180
04/09/2012 02:48 PMPosted by Blacktide
Doesn't it reset the swing timer and such too?


The weapon swap does that not the ability. And the fact hat you should not be melee swinging because that can block the macro.

04/09/2012 02:48 PMPosted by Blacktide
Can it currently be used while disarmed, and what about if the shield req was removed?


Not when Dismantled. Only caster I know with a disarm is Spriest.

04/09/2012 02:48 PMPosted by Blacktide
To me it seems like Blizz put limitations there on purpose. People found a workaround via swap macro and it turned an interesting decision into a minor hiccup


It was put in to help Warriors deal with magic damage from bosses and help deal with magic damage, we already did shield wall I believe back then so it seems it was intended for arms and fury. But as of now it is an almost pure PvP move and we are balanced around using it.

04/09/2012 02:48 PMPosted by Blacktide
but I don't think that means Blizz intends for you to beat on casters full-bore while pummeling, stunning, AND reflecting them. Increasing damage is not a neutral QoL change.


We do all that now, just with more bugs. And it's not increasing damage it's keeping it from being lowered. the REAL QoL is stopping it from failing.

04/09/2012 02:48 PMPosted by Blacktide
Most of what you responded to, isn't what was being stated. I don't know why you brought up the Deflection option in your OP if you weren't at all prepared for anyone to agree with that section.
I'm not saying not to change/nerff but people are pointing things out that have nothing to do with the move like free shields and acting like it's a boon for prot and not a class wide skill.The only one who even mentioned that was you and I was not responding to the part, just the misconception about the shield requirement changing how/when/why we use it.
Edited by Drede on 4/9/2012 3:32 PM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
14180
04/09/2012 03:12 PMPosted by Purebalance
Cant you macro an unequip? I've never tried really. This is in reference to needing a 1h. I know you can have a shield alone, but can you macro just to remove 2h then eq shield?


Not that I know off. And it's better to have a 1 hander then nothing anyway so you can at least do something, not to mention having more health and other stats.
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85 Blood Elf Mage
9920
04/09/2012 02:35 PMPosted by Finelor
Warriors look to be in a very, very good spot in MoP compared to live. Double charge, 30 second heroic leap cd with glyph, followed by 20 yard range piercing howl, 30 second immunity to movement impairing effects from Avatar, OP dragon roar, 1 min cd fear, etc etc.

Almost all the classes look to be borderline OP in MoP (I say almost only because I haven't looked at them all).

And if everyone's op, is anyone really op? ^.^
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90 Dwarf Warrior
12760
Whenever this topic comes up, I wonder if it'd be possible for the server to "trust" that the client had equipped a shield; then, after each end had communicated some milliseconds later, the server would maintain a Spell Reflection or Shield Wall buff if verified or immediately cancel the buff if not. I still don't know the answer.
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90 Draenei Paladin
17760
04/09/2012 02:05 PMPosted by Blacktide
Spell reflection doesn't make sense flavor-wise without a shield. They should just make it prot-only, and balance accordingly. It would definitely be overpowered if it were not limited.


Flavor-wise it'd make just as much sense reflecting a spell with your weapon as with your shield. It's not like shields have some inherent property that makes them inherently good at sending a fireball back at a target.
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04/09/2012 03:40 PMPosted by Thirdegree
Warriors look to be in a very, very good spot in MoP compared to live. Double charge, 30 second heroic leap cd with glyph, followed by 20 yard range piercing howl, 30 second immunity to movement impairing effects from Avatar, OP dragon roar, 1 min cd fear, etc etc.

Almost all the classes look to be borderline OP in MoP (I say almost only because I haven't looked at them all).

And if everyone's op, is anyone really op? ^.^


Yes! Nerf everyone!
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90 Human Warrior
14180
04/09/2012 07:17 PMPosted by Snozberries
Spell reflection doesn't make sense flavor-wise without a shield. They should just make it prot-only, and balance accordingly. It would definitely be overpowered if it were not limited.


Flavor-wise it'd make just as much sense reflecting a spell with your weapon as with your shield. It's not like shields have some inherent property that makes them inherently good at sending a fireball back at a target.


^this. Lots of games use weapons to deflect/reflect spells. At one poine (might have been in a beta test) DKs could have a Talent to Perry spells. So it's not a stretch.
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90 Human Warrior
14180
Some basic change suggestions

1 Remove the Requirement for shield but make it weapons instead.
2 Make a glyph that remove the requirement.
3 Change it to Spell Deflection and have it cancel spells without sending them back at the enemy.
4 Come up with some sort of UI change to make it less clunky. (I don't like this one)
5 Remove it for Arms and Fury and give them something else.

I like 1 the most. 2 would be nice and 3 seem reasonable. I would not mind 5
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85 Orc Warrior
5335
Spell Reflect should equip a generic shield (mostly for animation purposes) to reflect spells. This generic shield should not be a physical shield you own, it should only serve the purpose of displaying a shield when Spell reflect is used. It is immediately removed once Spell Reflect has finished.

This would only be used for Warriors in Arms or Fury spec. Prot spec would use the shield they already have equipped.
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90 Human Warrior
14180
Spell Reflect should equip a generic shield (mostly for animation purposes) to reflect spells. This generic shield should not be a physical shield you own, it should only serve the purpose of displaying a shield when Spell reflect is used. It is immediately removed once Spell Reflect has finished.

This would only be used for Warriors in Arms or Fury spec. Prot spec would use the shield they already have equipped.


We already have a big shield flash over our heads when we start. Just make it last the duration.
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04/09/2012 12:49 PMPosted by Drede
I don't know about you, but I think having a talent that needs a macro is a bad talent :P
You have got to be kidding me, right?
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
04/09/2012 02:05 PMPosted by Blacktide
Spell reflection doesn't make sense flavor-wise without a shield.


Clearly you've never played Zelda
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