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Yes, but if they wanted to reduce damage they could just reduce damage.

Ok, but the warrior posts on this issue don't say "remove the spell reflect shield requirement and reduce warrior damage during spell reflect." They leave the second part out.

I agree it's kind of a clunky way to reduce damage during spell reflect, but, if you think about it, it's similar to how it would work in "real" combat. The warrior sees a mage about to nuke him, he throws down his 2 hander and gets his shield and raises it for 5 seconds.

It takes a brief instant to do that, and he hasn't got his best weapon once he does. But not only is he functionally immune to damage for 5 seconds, but he's going to reflect that damage back to the attacker. On a 25 second cd. That's really powerful. If I look at it from the mage's perspectivce, it's only fair that it takes a brief second to activate and that you don't have your best weapon once you do so.

Switching to a shield is a weird concept for spell reflect, but it serves a purpose.

The warrior actually switches over to a defensive mode, as opposed to the AMS model where the DK just pops it as extra insurance to stay on their target while continuing to dish out their full offensive potential.

Thing is, ALL classes need to do that, not just warriors. But as it stands they are the only class that has to write a macro and purchases/carry around extra gear to use one of his baseline moves.

04/18/2012 01:38 PMPosted by Kaikou

Maybe it shouldn't require a shield swap, but *something* needs to be implemented where a warrior has to decide between offensive pressure, or spell reflect.

If they wanted to lower the damage they could just lower the damage. And as I have said they lower damage is more of a side affect of the weapon swap and not a design feature. And to use it we drop almost ALL offensive pressure, just for a 5 second buff that may or may not work.

04/18/2012 01:38 PMPosted by Kaikou

I don't want to see spell reflect become like AMS, an ability you just pop on cooldown or chain together with avatar for stupidly high uptime on casters.

Nothing is stopping us from using it on CD now except that it's something an idiot would do. And without the requirement it would still be something an idiot would do. And you don't know their "uptime on casters" in mop as it not even out yet. This is just an opinion, not a fact. A fact can be measured and proven, this can't.

04/18/2012 02:02 PMPosted by Kelleni

Ok, but the warrior posts on this issue don't say "remove the spell reflect shield requirement and reduce warrior damage during spell reflect." They leave the second part out.

To be fare we don't do that much damage anyway. And it does not matter if they leave the second part, the issues with it are very big and getting bigger every Xpac. The second part has more to do with blizzard balancing it as needed anyway, and we don't know if it will be yet until we get some testing done it MoP

04/18/2012 02:02 PMPosted by Kelleni

I agree it's kind of a clunky way to reduce damage during spell reflect, but, if you think about it, it's similar to how it would work in "real" combat. The warrior sees a mage about to nuke him, he throws down his 2 hander and gets his shield and raises it for 5 seconds.

As a real life blacksmith I can tell you no one would ditch their 2 hander for a shield because no one would weigh themselves down with a clunky piece of metal and wood if they used 2 handers. And he could just hit it back like a baseball if he was skilled with it.

04/18/2012 02:02 PMPosted by Kelleni

It takes a brief instant to do that, and he hasn't got his best weapon once he does. But not only is he functionally immune to damage for 5 seconds, but he's going to reflect that damage back to the attacker. On a 25 second cd. That's really powerful. If I look at it from the mage's perspectivce, it's only fair that it takes a brief second to activate and that you don't have your best weapon once you do so

It's really not as powerful as you think it is. The reflected damage is made as if the warrior casted it and thus is far weaker then the original spell. Unless you know warriors who stack int.

So then slap a 50% damage reduction debuff onto the warrior for the duration of spell reflect.

It has to be significant enough that warriors don't start using spell reflect like DKs do AMS.

Spell Reflect and AMS are noting alike. And I'm starting your real problem is with AMS not spell reflection.

It's really not as powerful as you think it is. The reflected damage is made as if the warrior casted it and thus is far weaker then the original spell. Unless you know warriors who stack int.

Maybe not on live, where the caster can just "eat" one low damage spell to negate it. But in MoP when you can get mass spell reflection it's basically 5 seconds of immunity to a caster. Or in my case you can reflect my freezing trap AND my explosive trap in 5 seconds so I just have to take your damage.

If you reflect a cc spell it's the exact same potency. Also it's still damage that you didn't take that you make your opponent take instead even if it's not a cc spell. So how bout we make the warrior still eat the spell and reflect it? Or how bout we just negate the spell? Then maybe it would be balanced with the current cd to not require a shield.

I think if they are going to continue to make it use a shield, they should implement weapon swaping into the ability itself so that it could be used reliably. Just make it equip a shield and 1h from bags or have a preset set and make it function less buggy than current weapon swap models.

04/18/2012 06:14 PMPosted by Kaikou

I'm surprised you don't recognize how similarly the two abilities would be used in MoP, despite the subtle differences.

It would be used the same as it is now... It's more like an interrupt then a damage reducer. Only instead of lockouts it sends the spell back.

Shield Wall is more like AMS whereas Spell Reflection is more like Dark Sim.

If you reflect a cc spell it's the exact same potency. Also it's still damage that you didn't take that you make your opponent take instead even if it's not a cc spell. So how bout we make the warrior still eat the spell and reflect it? Or how bout we just negate the spell? Then maybe it would be balanced with the current cd to not require a shield.

Only if I get to pick my "reflected" target like Dark Sim.

04/18/2012 06:21 PMPosted by Shedninja

I think if they are going to continue to make it use a shield, they should implement weapon swaping into the ability itself so that it could be used reliably. Just make it equip a shield and 1h from bags or have a preset set and make it function less buggy than current weapon swap models.

Seems overly complicated to an easily solved problem.

04/18/2012 02:30 PMPosted by Kelleni

Maybe not on live, where the caster can just "eat" one low damage spell to negate it. But in MoP when you can get mass spell reflection it's basically 5 seconds of immunity to a caster. Or in my case you can reflect my freezing trap AND my explosive trap in 5 seconds so I just have to take your damage.

Those aren't spells. And as for eating it they could stand to not cast for 5 seconds and waist my 25 second CD. And it's just two spells, if timed right it can be big but, again the shield requirement does nothing to change this.

Yes, but if they wanted to reduce damage they could just reduce damage.

Ok, but the warrior posts on this issue don't say "remove the spell reflect shield requirement and reduce warrior damage during spell reflect." They leave the second part out.

I agree it's kind of a clunky way to reduce damage during spell reflect, but, if you think about it, it's similar to how it would work in "real" combat. The warrior sees a mage about to nuke him, he throws down his 2 hander and gets his shield and raises it for 5 seconds.

It takes a brief instant to do that, and he hasn't got his best weapon once he does. But not only is he functionally immune to damage for 5 seconds, but he's going to reflect that damage back to the attacker. On a 25 second cd. That's really powerful. If I look at it from the mage's perspectivce, it's only fair that it takes a brief second to activate and that you don't have your best weapon once you do so.

It has to be significant enough that warriors don't start using spell reflect like DKs do AMS.

In case you guys forgot, or seemingly never knew, spell reflect has a CHARGE. You throw a sh!t spell into it, it goes away. It's incredibly easy to see a warrior with his shield on. It gets juked by anyone with half a working brain.

Because of this, we actually time our ability. We have to fight through weapon swaps (these servers don't recognize !@#$) and basic server lag, AND if it's not cast right before they finish casting good players /stopcasting and cast some dumper spell like ice lance or fel flame. In MoP you'll have to throw 2.

It's nothing at all like AMS because competent players can remove it.

But not only is he functionally immune to damage for 5 seconds

Trolling genius or genuine downy?

04/18/2012 06:21 PMPosted by Shedninja

I think if they are going to continue to make it use a shield, they should implement weapon swaping into the ability itself so that it could be used reliably. Just make it equip a shield and 1h from bags or have a preset set and make it function less buggy than current weapon swap models.

This is really the crux of the issue. If Blizzard is absolutely going to force Warriors to be the only class with massive downsides to our defensive abilities then at the very least there needs to be systems set in place for those abilities to work efficiently. Sword and shield to go defensive is fine but it needs to be supported, and not be something that the Warrior has to make a macro then time perfectly to make it work. It's just clunky and we should be moving beyond that, every other class seems to be at any rate.

Do wild imps cast like regular imps in beta? If so we might never get a spell reflect off on some warlocks : /

04/18/2012 11:46 PMPosted by Nodokk

I think if they are going to continue to make it use a shield, they should implement weapon swaping into the ability itself so that it could be used reliably. Just make it equip a shield and 1h from bags or have a preset set and make it function less buggy than current weapon swap models.

This is really the crux of the issue. If Blizzard is absolutely going to force Warriors to be the only class with massive downsides to our defensive abilities then at the very least there needs to be systems set in place for those abilities to work efficiently. Sword and shield to go defensive is fine but it needs to be supported, and not be something that the Warrior has to make a macro then time perfectly to make it work. It's just clunky and we should be moving beyond that, every other class seems to be at any rate.

Shield wall should be changed to be in line with similar abilities.

Spell Reflect has no other counterparts thus must remain the same.

Shield wall should be changed to be in line with similar abilities.

Because Spell Reflect is not the same as any other ability it doesn't deserve to work correctly.

So then slap a 50% damage reduction debuff onto the warrior for the duration of spell reflect.

It has to be significant enough that warriors don't start using spell reflect like DKs do AMS.

Okay. Then slap a 70% damage output reduction on Mages if they root any melee characters, because you are the DK with like six sources of AMS against melee, and that's not allowed.

And honestly, with all the ways in the game that people can tank melee for a very very VERY long time, I don't see any actual reason the abilities that allowed for tanking casters to an extent (something along the lines of an indefinite 30% magic reduction) were removed beyond Ghostcrawler not wanting to experience walls when spamming Arcane Blast behind a hill.

Shield wall should be changed to be in line with similar abilities.

Spell Reflect has no other counterparts thus must remain the same.

Just because there is nothing quite like it does not mean is should keep all the bugs and glitches as well as keep it's pointless (at this point they are pointless) requirements like having to press the button twice and having to update a macro with every gear update.

And Shield Wall can go prot only now that we have Die by the Sword. They could just buff DbtS.

Remove shield requirement make it spell deflect.

Shield wall should be changed to be in line with similar abilities.

Spell Reflect has no other counterparts thus must remain the same.

Just because there is nothing quite like it does not mean is should keep all the bugs and glitches as well as keep it's pointless (at this point they are pointless) requirements like having to press the button twice and having to update a macro with every gear update.

And Shield Wall can go prot only now that we have Die by the Sword. They could just buff DbtS.

Make spell reflect prot only then. That seems to solve the issue of using a shield. If your issue is the fact that you have to use a shield in a cd that is a short defensive cd that no other tank class has, then move it to the tank spec. That is in fact what is supposed to be: a tank cd. What tree is spell reflect in right now? That's right, protection. It is a tank cd. I mean if we're moving spell reflect to not require a shield, lets make Frenzied Regeneration usable in all druid forms. I don't see the issue with that if we can have spell reflect not require a shield. How about giving avenger shield to all pally specs without a shield too. Or hell even letting all DK specs get bone shield.

If you have a problem with having to do something that makes you similar to your tank spec to use an ability from said tank spec, then let's make it only available to that spec because other specs have things that they have to jump through as many hoops to use.

Make spell reflect prot only then. That seems to solve the issue of using a shield. If your issue is the fact that you have to use a shield in a cd that is a short defensive cd that no other tank class has, then move it to the tank spec.

It does not matter that it's something "No other tank spec has", the problem's is that to use one of our basic defensive moves that we are required to to use in PvP we have to wrote a macro and jump through hoops with the chance of it failing all together.

04/20/2012 02:16 PMPosted by Purebalance

That is in fact what is supposed to be: a tank cd.

Are you kidding me? Did you really just says this? It has not been used as a tank CD for years. There are almost no mobs/bosses that make any kind of reflectable move in the game anymore. Thats like calling dissarm a tank CD. If you judge it by its current use you could say it's ONLY a PvP move. Fact is I am willing to bet some prot warriors have never even used it.

What tree is spell reflect in right now? That's right, protection. It is a tank cd.

Swing and a miss... So you're saying no one can use outside spec moves now? Guess you shouldn't summon demons anymore outside of demo. Since when does it matter what tree a move is in? It's not a freaken prot talent, it's a BASELINE CD that is use more by PvP warriors then anything else.

I mean if we're moving spell reflect to not require a shield, lets make Frenzied Regeneration usable in all druid forms. I don't see the issue with that if we can have spell reflect not require a shield. How about giving avenger shield to all pally specs without a shield too.

Thing is those are moves made for those specs only (Come MoP) And just because they make spell reflect FUNCTION BETTER does not mean they are going to start handing out moves like Halloween candy.

04/20/2012 02:16 PMPosted by Purebalance

Or hell even letting all DK specs get bone shield.

They are. Enjoy.

04/20/2012 02:16 PMPosted by Purebalance

If you have a problem with having to do something that makes you similar to your tank spec to use an ability from said tank spec, then let's make it only available to that spec because other specs have things that they have to jump through as many hoops to use.

You do not understand the issue at all. This is as much of a DPS warrior move as it is a prot move. More so, in fact, because prot doesn't use it anymore. Spell reflect is not a move you only get in tanks spec, it is a move that is required in PvP that has allot of flaws do to outdated mechanics.

I would be fine if they removed it as long as we are compensated in someway. As it stands now (in MoP and now) warriors have some of the least utility of any class in the game and you can't start taking any of it away without giving something to make it at least break even.