Possibility of someone new ruling Quel'Thalas

90 Orc Hunter
10515
So I was discussing the lack of direction for the Blood Elfs with my friend, and I got pretty latched onto the idea that a new leader could easily take control of Quel'Thalas. I don't know an excessive amount of Blood Elf lore, but I was curious if you guys had any opinions on this.

To me, it seems that Lor'themar Theron would be the obvious choice. He could easily gain public support by denouncing Kael'Thas and removing Grand Magister Rommath from power, replacing him with a mage loyal to himself. Getting support from Halduron Brightwing shouldn't be too difficult to recruit as he could probably offer him some favor to make the war against the scourge easier.

This is where I've become uncertain. In the current lore, do Deatholme and Stratholme still stand, or where they destroyed? Are they just leaderless but still filled with the undead, or are they pretty much cleared out? In my reasoning, he could march on the Eastern Plaguelands and smash the scourge against the Forsaken. Creating a strong alliance with Lady Sylvanas should be easy because she is a Blood Elf. Also, pushing the Alliance back into the Hinterlands/Alterac Valley (not sure where that exactly comes out, I play Horde).

The Blood Elf/Forsaken alliance could then work the Darkspeare and Tauren to remove Garrosh from power and create an equal balance of power among the Horde instead of the current leader being the Warcheif.
Edited by Gninrael on 4/9/2012 5:17 PM PDT
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100 Human Mage
9210
Sylvanas isn't a Blood Elf. She was never a Blood Elf. She died as a High Elf, defending Quel'thalas and Silvermoon before the Sunwell fell. She never knew the pain of the absence of the Sunwell, only the pain of death and undeath.

Likewise, she has since used extortion to coerce the cooperation of the Blood Elves in the war in Northrend, at a time when they were in no condition to commit troops to a war.Lor'themar has been a weak, ineffectual leader for the most part. His greatest accomplishments are more due to others, such as Anveena cleansing the entirety of Eversong Woods to the state it is in currently. Even if he wanted to become King, he couldn't, he's not of royal blood. Only a Sunstrider can claim that throne, and as far as we know, there aren't any further Sunstriders (subject to change).

Removing Rommath from power would further weaken himself, as he and Halduron Brightwing no longer see eye-to-eye. A large reason the Blood Elf storyline has stagnated is due to the fact that, being a part of the Horde, there isn't anything they -can- do. Their next, logical move would be to leave the Horde and establish neutrality, which is a feat they cannot do with Lor'themar's poor leadership, and the lack of force to properly protect their lands from domestic threats such as the Amani. Similarly, it doesn't do anything for the Horde's overall storyline.

World of Warcraft is, at its most fundamental level, Orcs vs. Humans, and every other race/member of the factions full under the moniker, 'and pals.' Sometimes we'll see them gain a storyline, or some spotline, but never anything major.
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
04/09/2012 05:43 PMPosted by Elenie
Their next, logical move would be to leave the Horde and establish neutrality,


1. Logic means nothing, we know SO LITTLE about the setting we cannot

Moreover, different decisions can be logical when you want different outcomes.

2. Just because you want them neutral, and as high elves, doesn't mean they should be.

Stop ignoring the fact that they've put forces, albeit small groups, throughout -Kalimdor- where they have little to really gain, not even regularly as part of the reliquary, but as part of the Horde military, AND, they had a diplomat with the Horde in Ashenvale.
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100 Tauren Druid
9890
they had a diplomat with the Horde in Ashenvale.
/sad :(
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100 Human Mage
9210
04/09/2012 05:48 PMPosted by Skytotem
2. Just because you want them neutral, and as high elves, doesn't mean they should be.


I don't want them to be High Elves, though I wouldn't mind seeing the High Elves join them if/when they go neutral.

04/09/2012 05:48 PMPosted by Skytotem
Stop ignoring the fact that they've put forces, albeit small groups, throughout -Kalimdor- where they have little to really gain, not even regularly as part of the reliquary, but as part of the Horde military, AND, they had a diplomat with the Horde in Ashenvale.


The elves of Quel'thalas have a history of distancing themselves from mortal races until necessary. They have nothing to gain at the moment in the Horde's war, and much to lose. Blood Elves present in Kalimdor tend to be continuing their struggle against the Night Elves. Azshara and Ashenvale both show that. Those in the Desolace likewise show that, by misusing Elune's powers against the Alliance, although the tone of the quests makes it clear they were far more interested in testing those powers than they were in harming the Alliance.
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90 Orc Hunter
10515
Sylvanas isn't a Blood Elf. She was never a Blood Elf. She died as a High Elf, defending Quel'thalas and Silvermoon before the Sunwell fell. She never knew the pain of the absence of the Sunwell, only the pain of death and undeath.

Likewise, she has since used extortion to coerce the cooperation of the Blood Elves in the war in Northrend, at a time when they were in no condition to commit troops to a war.Lor'themar has been a weak, ineffectual leader for the most part. His greatest accomplishments are more due to others, such as Anveena cleansing the entirety of Eversong Woods to the state it is in currently. Even if he wanted to become King, he couldn't, he's not of royal blood. Only a Sunstrider can claim that throne, and as far as we know, there aren't any further Sunstriders (subject to change).

Removing Rommath from power would further weaken himself, as he and Halduron Brightwing no longer see eye-to-eye. A large reason the Blood Elf storyline has stagnated is due to the fact that, being a part of the Horde, there isn't anything they -can- do. Their next, logical move would be to leave the Horde and establish neutrality, which is a feat they cannot do with Lor'themar's poor leadership, and the lack of force to properly protect their lands from domestic threats such as the Amani. Similarly, it doesn't do anything for the Horde's overall storyline.

World of Warcraft is, at its most fundamental level, Orcs vs. Humans, and every other race/member of the factions full under the moniker, 'and pals.' Sometimes we'll see them gain a storyline, or some spotline, but never anything major.


Thanks for the detailed reply! Do you have any suggestions on what I can read in order to learn more about the High Elfs/their transformation into Blood Elfs? Also, anything pertaining to the leaders of the Blood Elfs.

Also, couldn't it simply work the other way around? Lady Sylvanas could come to the aid of the Blood Elfs and smash the scourge between them and the defenses the Elfs have created in Eversong? She must feel some guilt for not being able to stop Arthas and allowing her people to turn into what they currently are.
Edited by Gninrael on 4/9/2012 6:22 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Warlock
11345
What I find interesting is The Reliquary. GIven their presence in the Warchief room, I think they have some substantial power within belf society.

So we currently have as Belf groups:

The Magisters - Mages and Warlocks, maybe priests, lead by Rommath,
The Farstriders - Rangers that are Blood Elfs without being part of the faction, or High Elves
The Rangers - Halduron and friends
The Priests (or are they also under Magisters?) - ?
The Blood Knights - Lady Liadrin and frinnds
The Reliquary - reestablished by either Rommath or a new Convocation of Silvermoon, whose ranks include warlocks, pages, priests, and more, and formally lead by Tae'thelan Bloodwatcher whose gossip texts implies High Elves and Blood Elves are working, slowly, to be unified.

There is also the Sunreaver faction, which is the Blood Elf subgroup of the Kirin Tor, lead by Aethas Sunreaver, who is now one of the Six.
Edited by Baalsamael on 4/9/2012 6:22 PM PDT
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85 Tauren Shaman
6230
04/09/2012 06:12 PMPosted by Elenie
although the tone of the quests makes it clear they were far more interested in testing those powers than they were in harming the Alliance.


This is absolute bunk.

EDIT:

The entire point was revenge on the Alliance.

Disdain for the Alliance and support of the Horde is present in every set of Blood Elf quests.
Edited by Skytotem on 4/9/2012 6:29 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Warlock
11345
04/09/2012 06:16 PMPosted by Gninrael
She must feel some guilt for not being able to stop Arthas and allowing her people to turn into what they currently are.


Lololololol

Sylvanas... /dies laughing.... feeling sympathy.... /suffocates laughing.

No. She feels nothing. Except ONE instance of sorrow for her sisters, and ONE example of fear for herself, which head to feeling more of nothing. >_>
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100 Troll Hunter
13645
04/09/2012 05:48 PMPosted by Skytotem
2. Just because you want them neutral, and as high elves, doesn't mean they should be.


Not to mention the Blood Elves are presumably under the Oath of the Horde. They can't just go neutral.
Edited by Pyronaptor on 4/9/2012 6:35 PM PDT
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100 Human Mage
9210
04/09/2012 06:34 PMPosted by Pyronaptor
Not to mention the Blood Elves are presumably under the Oath of the Horde. They can't just go neutral.


Tell that to the Horde races in the Argent Crusade.

04/09/2012 06:16 PMPosted by Gninrael
Do you have any suggestions on what I can read


Lor'themar and Sylvanas Leader Short Stories should give you an idea into the state of the Blood Elves and Sylvanas' intentions and motivations, as well as her character.

If you can get it, there is the Sunwell manga.

Playing WC3 and WC3:TFT are also good sources of insight into the change of the High Elves to Blood Elves.
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100 Troll Hunter
13645
04/09/2012 06:46 PMPosted by Elenie
Tell that to the Horde races in the Argent Crusade.

Being in the Argent Crusade doesn't make you a non-member of the Horde.

In fact, the reason the Argent Crusade has turned a blind eye to Sylvanas is because they're afraid they'd lose their Horde members.
Edited by Pyronaptor on 4/9/2012 6:58 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Druid
9890
She must feel some guilt for not being able to stop Arthas and allowing her people to turn into what they currently are.


Lololololol

Sylvanas... /dies laughing.... feeling sympathy.... /suffocates laughing.

No. She feels nothing. Except ONE instance of sorrow for her sisters, and ONE example of fear for herself, which head to feeling more of nothing. >_>


For what it's worth, her short story actually showed a great deal of feeling and emotion, including regret, satisfaction, desire for revenge and for (personal) peace, rage.

Though while she might feel bad for what happened, I would imagine any special alliance between the Blood Elves and the Forsaken would, from the Forsaken pov, be driven by Sylvanas' newly-acquired self-preservation imperative. With what happened in the BE leader short story I'm not sure the BEs would be sold on a further binding agreement with the Forsaken *in particular*.

Skytotem, can you recall any instances of the BEs working with the Forsaken in the newly-redone oldworld in Cata?
Edited by Bullcowsby on 4/9/2012 6:50 PM PDT
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100 Human Mage
9210
04/09/2012 06:48 PMPosted by Bullcowsby
Skytotem, can you recall any instances of the BEs working with the Forsaken in the newly-redone oldworld in Cata?


There's... Johnny Awesome.

I believe the one Blood Elf is still at Tarren Mill, too.
http://www.wowpedia.org/Advisor_Duskingdawn
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100 Tauren Druid
9890
04/09/2012 06:57 PMPosted by Elenie
Skytotem, can you recall any instances of the BEs working with the Forsaken in the newly-redone oldworld in Cata?


There's... Johnny Awesome.

I believe the one Blood Elf is still at Tarren Mill, too.
http://www.wowpedia.org/Advisor_Duskingdawn


Haha, Johnny Awesome. How could I have forgotten about him! The reason I had asked was simply to gauge how strained relations between the two are (if they still are.) Seems there's not a lot of bad blood between them, though.

I personally thought of the BEs through Cata questing as a type of glue. The Orcs and Tauren in Kalimdor, the Forsaken (with an Orc presence) in the EK are doing the brunt of the "heavy labor" (the fighting). The BEs are the go-betweens, the diplomats, the ones in the niche areas researching this and that for the betterment of the Horde.
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100 Human Mage
9210
I think the Goblins are the sort who conduct research and act as the go-between. The Blood Elves have seemed to play minor roles, acting in places and ways the Horde wouldn't have a lot of experience in otherwise (such as magic and ruins in Azshara), or on their own (researching ruins in Desolace).
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100 Blood Elf Death Knight
11020
The dichotomy comes in where Blood Elves are relegated to such a minor role, and yet they're the most played Horde race.

As to Leadership, I'd honestly be happy with just about anyone OTHER than Lorthemar Donothing Theron. As far as I see it, he should die as part of the development for whoever replaces him. He's too much of a failure to bother redeeming, so it's better to axe him completely in the name of bolstering a fresh slate.

Should they be neutral? ... The ship on that has LONG since sailed.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
04/09/2012 07:26 PMPosted by Dryker
Should they be neutral? ... The ship on that has LONG since sailed.


The Blood Elves would jump ship the moment the Alliance managed to cut them off from the Undercity.
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100 Human Mage
9210
04/09/2012 07:32 PMPosted by Vyrin
Should they be neutral? ... The ship on that has LONG since sailed.


The Blood Elves would jump ship the moment the Alliance managed to cut them off from the Undercity.


I imagine they'd have jump ship if Garrosh wasn't Warchief, and Lor'themar was replaced by a stronger leader. Thrall never really expected the Blood Elves to remain loyal to the Horde; he knew it was a situation of the two groups using one another for a mutual end.
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100 Night Elf Druid
11070
I still think Blizz should play up the dictatorial aspects of Theron's rule and build him up to be some sort of Big-Brother like fascist ruler.
Edited by Omacron on 4/9/2012 7:57 PM PDT
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