the death of Winterhoof the saddening truth

85 Blood Elf Paladin
Sin
11615
This realm is worse now then ever. I left WoW in December for about 3 months and the the difference, even from that short period of time, was noticeable.

Hype lays out a number of compelling reasons, but I will say that Lemonsquared's comment:
A server that once had a competitive raiding guild, with 2 other guilds working their way to become competitive, and a healthy pvp community on both sides is now stuck with 95% keyturning drunks who spend more time socializing in trade than actually playing the game.


rings awfully true as well. The trade-chat zombies that do not actually play are a problem.

And both of you forgot one additional layer on top of your articulated problems: Star Wars.

Many experienced players now log on ONLY for their scheduled raid times, clear DS, log out and resume dry-humping Ewoks or whatever the hell you do in SW:TOR. This lowers the pool of on-line available players to a freakishly low-level of slack-jawed knuckle-draggers that can barely move their PvP-Honor-geared !@# out of the fire.

So what can the committed players do?

1. The idea of trans-guild raid groups is helpful. Hype mentioned the one he runs his alt with in his post. Bring out the underused alts, the few PvP Guild members interested in doing a little PvE for fun and profit, the new people looking to learn, etc. Flexible schedules, offers to help gear/gem/chant, a regular spot, etc could generate some action.

2. Recruit n00bs. Actively and on purpose. Start offering runs (even if its content one or two tiers back) specifically for ppl new to raiding. Raiding is infectuous to the kind of people we are looking for. Help guide a group to their first Lich King kill and a few of those people will be clamoring to kill Cho'gall, Ragnaros and Deathwing in no time. If your regular group is having attendance strain, then start 9.5-manning it with one new person in your otherwise core group. If nothing else it will add a new challenge to your healers.

3. Group together for farming. Tokens, mog pieces, mounts and patterns... whatever you are farming that you usually solo or take the same person when the two of you are on... open it up. Get some people into Karazhan, Serpentshrine, ToGC, etc. Anything to get people off their $%^ and out of trade chat. Remember many people dont know all the acronyms or what each instance yields. I do not often get bites when I troll trade asking for people to run BWL... ...until I offer to get any hunter their Chrommie pet. Then 2 people pst me offering to log over to their hunter if they can come.

4. Pug. For the love of whatever ugly anachronistic god you still believe in, PUG! I would much rather help 2 or 3 people through Gruul's Lair or Tempest Keep then sit in Org wondering if its even worth trying to get a group together for DS or Heroic FL.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
Sin
11615
Dammit.. I didnt mean to hit post..

5. Team up Guilds. If your group is constantly wiping on the attendance boss, then odds are so is someone else's. Merge raid nights. Or If you have one solid core team and a few other people that want to go.. merge Guild Benches and form another group. And then use that relationship to partner up for activities outside of schedule DS-raiding. All it takes is a /who g-"Other Guild" command to see another list of potential players for whatever you (or they) have going on.
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90 Orc Hunter
10400
@Rohanski
If you think 25p raids are harder than 10p raids you've never raided 10man successfully nor 25.

That's where you are wrong, it is much harder to run a 25 than it is a 10, also all things being equal, 25 mans have much more complex mechanics due to there being more players in the same exact area in each encounter.

The whole problem with raiding, is the shared lockouts in raiding and the same exact loot list for both raids, plus the fact that lfr does not help either.
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90 Tauren Death Knight
18840
I agree with this 100% I choose to be in a 25-man guild now simply because it's more challenging than 10-mans. 25's as we all know are simply becoming extinct (for the most part) because there's no advantage to doing them anymore.


At the risk of degenerating this into a 10v25 thread, I would just like to make the distinction between logistical and mechanical challenges. I do not mean to antagonize you so please don't take that from this.

It's harder to manage the lives of 25 people than it is 10, absolutely. The payoff is that those 25 people are more likely to be appropriately geared as the gear you receive (in proportional quantity) is far less likely to be wasted. I don't think your 25 THREW AWAY roughly fifteen heroic tokens. Rubicon did because the only person on the Protector token was our hunter. Our gearing was far more stagnant because we did not have the diversity of people to distribute our consistently !@#$ty drops to. I also wonder how often the issue of group composition arises when working with your 25 roster. When was the last time you had to restructure the group or have people respec because you didn't have anyone with a bloodlust or a necessary buff?

There are a number of fights (overall) that are more forgiving for a group of 10 than 25. The opposite has also been true. I cannot make any claims as to how mechanically biased fights are in tiers 11-13 as I've not done them on 25. I feel that this is the reason so many people "fight" about 10v25. People just need to realize that some fights are way easier on 10 and some are way easier on 25.

1. The idea of trans-guild raid groups is helpful. Hype mentioned the one he runs his alt with in his post.

What's sad is we have been actively trying to recruit a few more DPS for this but have still found nothing. Shameless plug: Friday/Saturday and maybe Sunday. 930pm server. Yes, we will inspect you or ask you questions, but we want you to be able to kill heroics.

2. Recruit n00bs.

In theory, this is awesome. I have faith that out there in the masses there's a few real gems. There's also a lot of bads. More often than not its easier to just 9 man heroic content than have to explain an entire role to someone who only has a passing knowledge of the LFR. It is my current belief, barring any benches or drama, that most people who really want to raid are already doing so, whether they are successful or not.

it is much harder to run a 25 than it is a 10

Schedule wise, yes, absolutely. Composition wise I doubt it.

25 mans have much more complex mechanics due to there being more players in the same exact area in each encounter.

Same mechanics. You just handle it differently. Sometimes this makes the fights easier for you, sometimes harder.

The whole problem with raiding, is the shared lockouts in raiding and the same exact loot list for both raids

The same loot lists mean that you don't HAVE to run it on BOTH 10 and 25. There were plenty of cases in Wrath where you HAD to run 10, even if you were a 25, because some of the 10 gear was itemized better than its 25 counterpart. I don't know about you but I sure as hell don't want to HAVE to run DS (or any raid) twice a week. Once is more than enough for me.

plus the fact that lfr does not help either.

It roughly familiarizes people with the encounter, lets everyone see the content/lore if they aren't in raiding rosters, and gets raiders an alternate way to fill gear that happened to never drop for them. I WISH SO DEEPLY that something like LFR was around in BC when I was going to school, working, and UNABLE to join a raiding guild. I never got to see those fights when they were current and I STILL feel like I missed out a lot. I support LFR 100%.

You guys know what would be really cool? If it were possible for me to run my DK in two separate raids, being locked only to loot (just like LFR). Imagine how much it could alleviate community raiding problems if people could do that. I could tank for my guild and get gear there, but then I could turn around afterwords and use it to help a friend's budding raid group with whatever they're having problems on. I just wouldn't be able to get loot. What do you guys think about something like that?
Edited by Hypeir on 4/12/2012 11:43 AM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
Sin
11615
Imagine how much it could alleviate community raiding problems if people could do that. I could tank for my guild and get gear there, but then I could turn around afterwords and use it to help a friend's budding raid group with whatever they're having problems on. I just wouldn't be able to get loot. What do you guys think about something like that?


High potential for Burn Out on the minority of active Tanks, Heals and High DPSers, but yeah.. not a bad idea in theory.


Shameless plug: Friday/Saturday and maybe Sunday. 930pm server. Yes, we will inspect you or ask you questions, but we want you to be able to kill heroics.


I'd sign up to kill stuff in a second, but.... weekend raiding has a much higher rate of conflict with real life. :( Run a Mon-Thur night and I'd kill any boss we could down that night.

As for LFR.. put me down as "Meh...". Hype's points are fair about familiarity and accessibility, but I think there is far too much function-overlap with Heroic 5-mans. Compound that with the cheapening of Valor Points vs Justice and I feel like the Heroic 5-Mans aren't even relevant anymore. This was not the case in Lich King... not like this. The content is completely unified now.

So now its just People that grind DS on LFR/Norm/Heroic, PvPers and Trade Chatters. There really isnt anything else of note.
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85 Troll Druid
7695
Agreed with Hypier. His follow up points are what I was referencing in my statement.
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90 Draenei Priest
14165
04/12/2012 11:37 AMPosted by Hypeir
You guys know what would be really cool? If it were possible for me to run my DK in two separate raids, being locked only to loot (just like LFR).


Yeah, I'd happily pass on the loot if I could get in some extra raiding even if it was only to fill in a spot for another guild. Heck, I'd even try a 25-man raid just for fun (can't believe I said that.)

Winterhoof isn't dead. There are just too many in-game barriers that hinder collaboration and sharing resources.

If there was a way to do it, we'd all be too busy to notice the idiots in trade chat trying to out-stupid each other ;)
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85 Human Warlock
3420
its not dead until i leave and my mage is here so its not dead.
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80 Human Warrior
660
04/17/2012 02:50 PMPosted by Dotzie
its not dead until i leave and my mage is here so its not dead.


Why would you take Dotzie's name, Joey?

EDIT: also, hi hypeir! :D how you been?
Edited by Cocodrànk on 4/18/2012 1:20 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Death Knight
18840
Good, Mr. Drank, good. :D

Been trying to get in on some cross-realm RBGs. Having mixed success.
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85 Undead Mage
2685
didn't "take" anyones name, i never really knew him. I'm playing with lanik atm who is stunzie and he wanted to go stunzie dotzie and shockzie.
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80 Human Warrior
660
Good, Mr. Drank, good. :D

Been trying to get in on some cross-realm RBGs. Having mixed success.


Nice! Before I quit (enjoying a free 7 days on this old wrath account from scroll), Illidan was the top Horde PvP server, not sure how much has changed, but have you tried spamming over there for Xrealm RBG queues?

Also how's progression been going?
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90 Tauren Death Knight
18840
Good, Mr. Drank, good. :D

Been trying to get in on some cross-realm RBGs. Having mixed success.


Nice! Before I quit (enjoying a free 7 days on this old wrath account from scroll), Illidan was the top Horde PvP server, not sure how much has changed, but have you tried spamming over there for Xrealm RBG queues?

Also how's progression been going?


Nah, I haven't tried spamming on other realms, just what I could get through OpenRaid. I'd be a bit hesitant to go somewhere that good though. I feel I should aim my sights a bit (read: far) lower. Winterhoof Hero with laughable arena (inb4 somebody else says it) doesn't really hold any weight anywhere.

PvE side of things has been wunderbar though. We popped Savior the night before 15% went active so I'm feeling good about that. Just wish everyone else was down to farm mounts and 416s ;_;
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80 Human Warrior
660


Nice! Before I quit (enjoying a free 7 days on this old wrath account from scroll), Illidan was the top Horde PvP server, not sure how much has changed, but have you tried spamming over there for Xrealm RBG queues?

Also how's progression been going?


Nah, I haven't tried spamming on other realms, just what I could get through OpenRaid. I'd be a bit hesitant to go somewhere that good though. I feel I should aim my sights a bit (read: far) lower. Winterhoof Hero with laughable arena (inb4 somebody else says it) doesn't really hold any weight anywhere.

PvE side of things has been wunderbar though. We popped Savior the night before 15% went active so I'm feeling good about that. Just wish everyone else was down to farm mounts and 416s ;_;


However you do have 2100 previous XP in RBGs, and I'm sure if you post on their forums and explain your situation someone will gladly take you on some RBGs, maybe alt runs at first just to build your MMR.

Grats on Savior :D. And Yeah Winterhoof is kind of dead, well it was when I left it in season 10, not sure if it's died even more.

Anyway, I'd write a much longer reply, but I'm busy in the middle of a move and I got a 4 bed 3 bath house to go through and figure out what goes and what stays >.<
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90 Tauren Druid
10760
Coming from a more dead server myself, I can say Winterhoof is better off than you think. It's easy to compare Winterhoof to Area 52 and describe Winterhoof as crap. However that is an unfair assessment. Area 52 has more people so it has more potential to reach higher standards. Thus, I suggest to compare Winterhoof to other medium population realms.

There are some benefits to having a smaller server; such as less lag in major cities. If we compare this server to a small school, for another example, we could say that we live in a closer community. We know each other better and count on each other more. There is a sort of companionship in that. Since most aspects of an MMO are based upon the community interaction, I am sure it's agreeable to say that the game is made fun through the people you hang out with. With a closer community and less stress, I would argue that we have just as much fun, if not more, than those chaps who play on Area 52.
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87 Blood Elf Warlock
3970
Coming from a more dead server myself, I can say Winterhoof is better off than you think. It's easy to compare Winterhoof to Area 52 and describe Winterhoof as crap. However that is an unfair assessment. Area 52 has more people so it has more potential to reach higher standards. Thus, I suggest to compare Winterhoof to other medium population realms.

There are some benefits to having a smaller server; such as less lag in major cities. If we compare this server to a small school, for another example, we could say that we live in a closer community. We know each other better and count on each other more. There is a sort of companionship in that. Since most aspects of an MMO are based upon the community interaction, I am sure it's agreeable to say that the game is made fun through the people you hang out with. With a closer community and less stress, I would argue that we have just as much fun, if not more, than those chaps who play on Area 52.


damn u write good
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88 Undead Mage
2470
i KNEW it. i brought this up but people ignored me. this is so saddening. I was here since the very beginning. When it was a New Player realm i was assigned to it. I have had many different accounts due to hacking and carelessness, but i would always return to Winterhoof. I pray the realm makes a recovery. PLEASE LORD HELP WINTERHOOF
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90 Worgen Mage
8175
Let her burn. Terrible server is pretty terrible.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
9660
05/06/2012 03:41 PMPosted by Furenchtoast
Let her burn. Terrible server is pretty terrible.


Hey, at least we aren't Onyxia.
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