The Monk: A Dps Healer is Not Really Fair...

100 Undead Priest
TSP
14340
04/03/2012 02:55 PMPosted by Parsnip
I was distracted by the hideousness of male draenei in that video. I'm not sure letting most races play as monk was a good idea. It's hard to believe a male draenei can be that spry.


Oh ... that's nothing.

Wait till we have ... Tauren monks.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Paladin
20585
For those that are saying monks aren't OP:
Heroic Raids are a DPS check
Heroic Raids are often a heal check
Monks can do the same healing as all other healing classes while still doing MUCH more damage.
Same HPS with higher dps is a no brainer when creating rosters.
No tradeoff=OP


Yup, 100% my concern.

Just look at the heroic fights now where high end guilds DO bring Atonement priests, despite the fact that there is a HPS tradeoff for them spamming smite.

Oh ... that's nothing.

Wait till we have ... Tauren monks.


I'm really tempted to level engineering on my monk JUST so I can see a male tauren monk with the transporter debuff at a high level :X
Edited by Eloderung on 4/3/2012 3:31 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Priest
16615
04/03/2012 01:34 PMPosted by Eloderung
It was done wearing a full agility dps set!


100k mana in agility gear. Yup, what's stopping you...
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Paladin
20585
04/03/2012 03:35 PMPosted by Trillien
It was done wearing a full agility dps set!


100k mana in agility gear. Yup, what's stopping you...


Oh yes, and forgot to mention that change too. The high mana pool reserve helps a lot as I can still put out some nasty burst single target burst hps even with +0 int.

My mana pool is definitely much healthier when in full agi gear while dungeon running on beta at the moment.
Reply Quote
91 Blood Elf Paladin
7335
04/03/2012 03:35 PMPosted by Trillien
It was done wearing a full agility dps set!


100k mana in agility gear. Yup, what's stopping you...

I hadn't even considered that aspect of the change. Hilarious.
Reply Quote
90 Pandaren Shaman
11590
04/03/2012 02:07 PMPosted by Obliquatur
Just a thing i wanted to add, your video reminded me of what is going on with Enhancement Shamans right now. Their healing potential while DPSing is insane and their healing resources seem unlimited.


hahahah
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Paladin
20585
04/03/2012 06:09 PMPosted by Anohako


100k mana in agility gear. Yup, what's stopping you...

I hadn't even considered that aspect of the change. Hilarious.


That change will force me to not use the same transmog for ret and holy :[ I don't want to look at my sword to know what gear I'm wearing!
Reply Quote
58 Gnome Priest
790
It will probably be one of those things where it's overpowered in 5mans, but for a raid it doesn't even compare.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Paladin
13320
They likely will balance it in one of three ways
1. Set it up so that you pay a throughput penalty to do more DPS at the expense of healing output. Attonement follows this model; sure you do a respectable amount of damage, but your throughput is weak and probably inadequate for healing heavy damage because it's balanced around being near equal to the output of your slow efficient heal.
2. Heavily nerf the amount of damage monks do while DPS healing so that it is nerfed to near inconsequential levels. They would have to buff the damage to healing conversion to compensate. It would need to go down to Shaman lightning bolt/telluric currents or pally judgement (pre-4.3) levels.
3. Tax monk output to account for the fact they are also providing significant levels of DPS contribution. For example, if the average DPS is doing 40k, and a monk healer will do 10k, monk healing output needs to be balanced to 75% of what other specs can put out to tax them for the DPS output.

I think option 2 is the most realistic option, and something they can do just by tweaking the numbers/conversion ratios while keeping the core class design intact. Option 3 is what I would personally prefer to see - because it would add more depth and variety to the game. However, the reality is that something like that would probably be impossible to properly balance, with monk healers going from something you stack to completely useless depending on fight mechanics.
Reply Quote
100 Draenei Paladin
20585
04/03/2012 08:36 PMPosted by Starprincess
It will probably be one of those things where it's overpowered in 5mans, but for a raid it doesn't even compare.


For Chi generation (Jab) and for any situation involving multiple enemy mobs, I'm quite certain that these mechanics left as-in will carry over greatly into a raid situation.

Just also keep in mind that the dps heals of a monk pretty much cost zero resources. Jab is free, other abilities use Chi. Monk mana pools actually exhaust fairly quickly, though spending Chi essentially gives you mana back through Mana Tea (I believe it was called).

Healing Sphere also is ~40% more effective in agility gear over healing gear at the moment, which would be very interesting to see if that ability can stack up to "real" monk healing in clump situations.

It's all speculation one way or another at the moment but my gut feeling tells me that there will be issues in any raid with hard dps checks right now.
Edited by Eloderung on 4/3/2012 9:50 PM PDT
Reply Quote
85 Orc Shaman
7670
It seems like the main route to solving the problem is by basing your DPS off your agility and your healing off your spellpower. This would let you solo with AGI gear and grind mobs, but then would require you to switch to INT gear for dungeons/raiding.

It goes without saying that the equations for healing would have to be decoupled from your damage generated.

I'm pretty sure they could at least mock that up in a testing zone internally and try it out for a bit to tune it and then roll it out for beta testing, without requiring a complete "baby-bathwater" style solution.
Reply Quote
14 Gnome Mage
0
04/03/2012 02:46 PMPosted by Anarri
The evidence is in my favor, frankly. Logs place Disc at the bottom of the barrel.
Right, by a very small margin, comparable to the gaps between other specs.

But that doesn't matter because it is the wrong question. The right question is, does Discipline in Cataclysm have to sacrifice substantial HPS in order to contribute meaningfully to the dps during heroic raids?

The answer is a very clear and resounding NO. You can check the top parses for Disc priests and a good number of them are using Atonement, even in pre-nerf Heroic Dragon Soul. If more players had experience with it, they'd probably understand it better... Discipline does not have to sacrifice its total throughput to seriously contribute to damage.

And... there are times where it does make all the difference. For my part: my group would not have gotten heroic Baleroc pre-nerf without the free damage Atonement provided. Ultraxion is substantially easier when a healer brings 2-3 million damage to the table, knocking precious time off of the "soft enrage" length at the end of the fight. Also helps to kill drakes before they disengage on Warmaster, and obviously tendons--at the very least--on Spine.

My point is that this is a very nice advantage of the spec, and one that players (rightly) had the same concern pre-Cata as is being expressed about Monks, here. Yet, despite all of that, there really wasn't any time when raids (even world class progression groups) stacked Atonement priests.

So while this is a concern, something that players and Blizzard should pay careful attention to, it is clearly not doomed from the outset. In theory, we've seen that it can work, and frankly the rest is just numbers passes to make sure the spec has the appropriate output.
Reply Quote
85 Night Elf Druid
0
Right, by a very small margin, comparable to the gaps between other specs.

But that doesn't matter because it is the wrong question. The right question is, does Discipline in Cataclysm have to sacrifice substantial HPS in order to contribute meaningfully to the dps during heroic raids?


I don't consider the discrepancy to be marginal, but that's entirely subjective. And the damage a Disc priest brings is most definitely minuscule compared to what the DPS are bringing, which means that it is counterbalanced by the "marginal" loss to throughput

And yes, Disc priests have to sacrifice throughput to increase damage done. That's the part you don't seem to get. Neither HF nor smite can compare with the throughput of PoH, or even PW:S for that matter.

Mistweavers, however, will not have either caveat, and that is the problem.
Reply Quote
90 Goblin Shaman
0
I think this conversation may be just tad premature when it comes to discussing Raid Healing. The video was of a non-Heroic 5 man Dungeon run. Go watch the other videos out there of Mistweavers (in correct gear) healing through the same dungeon and I think the answer will become clear. Is is far too early for anyone to tell if a DPS Agi gear Mistweaver is viable or not for Raid healing.
Reply Quote
85 Blood Elf Priest
2575
Couple os issues i see in your review (even though it is constructive):

1- Healing 5 mans was never an issue and i hardly believe blizzard (or anyone) whould care if a class can blow things up in that scenario.

2- Attonement, for example, can literally let a disc priest be the best choice for a 5 man. I easily pull (2 months ago) 10k dps using smite and holy fire, healing the tank and group thorugh all 5 mans.

3- The two facts above made no correlation to raids, however.

I apreciate your effort to share since you're one of the lucky ones who got into beta, but i guess that is no reason to dispair. Specially at this point where everything can and will change.

One last thing, remember DK's when they first came out? They were OP as hell. some say its strategic to make people play that class, but that didn't last long. All and all, i'm not a bit worried about monks.
Reply Quote
90 Goblin Priest
9535
04/04/2012 06:50 AMPosted by Hoylshadow
2- Attonement, for example, can literally let a disc priest be the best choice for a 5 man. I easily pull (2 months ago) 10k dps using smite and holy fire, healing the tank and group thorugh all 5 mans.


10k is still rather small, all things considering. I mean, when DPS do double or triple. If monk healing does about the same as DPS do now, your 10k will look like crap. You'll still be the best second choice but, seeing as people moan about how "slow" the dungeon runs can be atm, they won't like it that you only do 10k DPS. The rest of use will be SOL.

And, from the way it sounds, the DPS isn't optional for their healing. Your healing isn't dependent on your DPS. You can cast barrier and all that to supplement (if you go into the raid as a DPS healer.) A monks DPS sounds constant, dependent, if they want to heal. There is a vast difference there. It's more like a DPS who just happens to heal as an after affect.

It's the best of both worlds. You heal and DPS like a beast. I don't know. It's still beta. The sky isn't falling yet.
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]