Goldy's Top 10: Achievement Edition

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100 Tauren Druid
16120
So, I was thinking the other day, and realized my brain was hurting... so I stopped.

This week's TOP 10 is, Top 10 achievements that you have .... achieved...

It could be because they are hard, or you like the name, or sentimental reasons, no one is here to judge, except the trollollolls, but they don't matter anyways.

10. Swift Razzashi Raptor/ Swift Zulian Tiger (never again can you get these)
9. "Who ordered a knuckle Sammich"
8. Swift Flight Form
7. "Blood Guard" (or Knight-Lieutenant for ally) achieved in vanilla
6. "It's over 9000"
5. "Well Read"
4. "What a long-strange Trip it's been"
3. "Realm First! Heroic Madness of Deathwing"/ "Glory of the Dragon Soul Raider"
2. "2500 Daily Quests" / "3000 Quests" (just proves I have no life...)
1. "The Coin Master" - so much damn time wasted at the Dalaran Fountain... :- /
~Goldy
>^.^<
Edited by Mìstrfuzzles on 4/4/2012 6:34 PM PDT
85 Troll Priest
8575
1. "The Coin Master" - so much damn time wasted at the Dalaran Fountain...


Amen to that. Also, the giant Dalaran sewer rat, which seemed to exclusively hate me as I saw many a player get it within the first 20 minutes of trying or by accident while doing the fishing dailies.

Actually all my fishing achievements are probably my favorite, just because they're such a pain.
100 Human Death Knight
16925
04/04/2012 06:34 PMPosted by Mìstrfuzzles
This week's TOP 10 is, Top 10 achievements that you have .... achieved...

How exactly does one respond to this without looking like a showoff? :(

Also, since I am a DK I have to ask, do multiple characters count? Seeing as how I would have had to have a different main before Wrath.

10. old master sergeant title (on fluffycute)
9. tabard of the protector (on fluffycute)
8. spirit of competition pet (on bunnyrabbit)
7. competitor's tabard (on bunnyrabbit)
6. swift razzashi raptor / swift zulian tiger
5. sulfuras / thunderfury
4. a tribute to insanity (but it's 10 man ewwwwwwwwww)
3. herald of the titans
2. veteran of the shifting sands
1. and finally after 125 runs according to the statistics page........ baron mount

I guess the only "realm first" I could claim would be "Glory of the Icecrown Raider (10man)" Everyone was raiding 25man back then and the 10man group we used was just a casual group that stayed up late and ran after the real raid was done. Of course, since it was nearly a full month before Ruthless I mean Tactical Gamer got their 10man Glory achievement I will use this as my example of how dropping to 10man and trimming away the fat of the 15 worst players in your raid group can propel your 10 best forward and why at the very least 10 and 25man achievements need to be separated again.

Not trying to put them down, good job to them for their 10man accomplishments during Cata.

Here is Zandara's Recipe for 10tard brownies.

Combine all achievements from 10 and 25man raiding in a bowl
Add in lockouts from both 10 and 25man raiding.
Thoroughly trim away fat from roster. You will be left with less than half of what you started with.
Apply mixture to "Path of Least Resistance" and bake for 6 months.

Warning 10tard brownies will be hot(headed) and may think they are badasses when first removed from oven. They will easily forget where they stood when doing 25mans or when lockouts, loot and achievements weren't shard.
Edited by Judson on 4/5/2012 9:24 AM PDT
85 Draenei Warrior
13335
04/05/2012 09:22 AMPosted by Judson
Here is Zandara's Recipe for 10tard brownies.


What does the recipe for 25tard brownies call for?
90 Night Elf Mage
15580
04/05/2012 09:33 AMPosted by Judwar
What does the recipe for 25tard brownies call for?


It's like shake-n-bake or hamburger helper. You simply add Judson!
90 Blood Elf Paladin
8360
That recipe looks pretty legit.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
9380
Warning 10tard brownies will be hot(headed) and may think they are badasses when first removed from oven. They will easily forget where they stood when doing 25mans or when lockouts, loot and achievements weren't shard.


joke's on you. i never did 25m raids.
100 Human Death Knight
16925
04/05/2012 03:59 PMPosted by Howdoing
joke's on you.


ops normal :)
90 Orc Rogue
16470
posted by Judson:
"...how dropping to 10man and trimming away the fat of the 15 worst players in your raid group can propel your 10 best forward..."


And the down side is...? lol. I raided 25's in the past and no doubt they can be fun, but when both group sizes drop the same gear now , 10-man's are nicer to the peeps with older comps, and if you are a really good player it is easier for you to significantly influence the end result in 10-mans (less true for tanks).

25's are harder to maintain and lead, I'll give you that, you can call it "the path of least resistance", but my guess is four out of every five people who consistently raid enjoy the game more by killing more bosses and getting better loot regardless of the format.
Edited by Sneakysloth on 4/6/2012 5:12 AM PDT
100 Human Death Knight
16925
04/06/2012 04:50 AMPosted by Sneakysloth
And the down side is...?

Well, the downside is obviously not on your end. It's on my end.
04/06/2012 04:50 AMPosted by Sneakysloth
both group sizes drop the same gear now

Another injustice but one I can live with. I am actually fine with the gear being the same, I just want achievements separated again.

04/06/2012 04:50 AMPosted by Sneakysloth
25's are harder to maintain and lead,

yes sir, but that part really only effects the officers and raid leaders. the part that effects the entire raid is the "roster boss"

04/06/2012 04:50 AMPosted by Sneakysloth
you can call it "the path of least resistance", but my guess is four out of every five people who consistently raid enjoy the game more by killing more bosses and getting better loot regardless of the format.


My guess is that most people don't want to put forth the extra effort because there is nothing to show for it.

I am fine with loot being the same. What bothers me the most is achievements being the exact same. People can argue difficulty and stuff all they, and they can argue about 1 vs 3 battle reses or people getting carried in 25s but there are a few issues that aren't arguable and those are pretty much the issues that stand out.

We all know that older computers handle 10s better.
We all know that 25s have less room to work with.
We all know that getting 10 people to stand in the right spot is easier than getting 25 to do so.
We all know that 25s have 15 more people to fail on any given attempt and wipe the raid.
We also know that the dps requirements are higher for 25s. Enrage timers are more generous in 10mans. I can continue with other non, arguable points like 15 extra people to DC, 15 extra people to fail at clicking a button. 15 extra people to have real life issues and not make raid, or 15 extra personalities to conflict.

However!!!!!!!!! I am not trying to argue 10 vs 25 and my goal with what I have said is not to put 10s down or debate difficulty.. The only reason I have pointed those issues out is to express my disappointment in shared achievements.

Separate achievements would appeal to the vanity in a lot of people. There will be a portion of raiders that would go back to 25s just so that their achievement says 25 instead of 10. Right now with the way it works it's like saying they did the exact same thing which they did not.

Additionally, I also know that separating achievements is all it would take to revive 25s because anyone interested in obtaining both the 25 and 10man achievements would need to raid with a 25man guild (at least on one of their toons)
85 Blood Elf Paladin
9380
Right now with the way it works it's like saying they did the exact same thing which they did *
100 Human Death Knight
16925
04/06/2012 01:25 PMPosted by Howdoing
Right now with the way it works it's like saying they did the exact same thing which they did *


Except they didn't.......

Mostly due to what I already stated...
We all know that older computers handle 10s better.
We all know that 25s have less room to work with.
We all know that getting 10 people to stand in the right spot is easier than getting 25 to do so.
We all know that 25s have 15 more people to fail on any given attempt and wipe the raid.
We also know that the dps requirements are higher for 25s. Enrage timers are more generous in 10mans. I can continue with other non, arguable points like 15 extra people to DC, 15 extra people to fail at clicking a button. 15 extra people to have real life issues and not make raid, or 15 extra personalities to conflict.


Here is some simple math for you.

TG as a 25man guild was #6 on server?
TG as a 10 man guild was #1 on server?

Why? Well along with the hard work, dedication and numerous wipes they put in on the content it is also because they trimmed the fat and 10s are easier due to everything I already quoted.

I get it, I understand. They got some realm first and you got some realm first and you all do not want to admit it was easier. It would injure your pride to step up and say "Yeah, but we did it in 10man so meh." You don't want to admit that you would not have done it if you had been a 25 man guild. No matter how badly someone wants to claim it's the same, for the sake of their own pride, they are not the same. The things I pointed out and quoted can not be tuned out or balanced out of a fight.

Edit.. wanted to add..

If you disagree and you want to prove me wrong then go 25man and clear 8/8 heroic DS.. You can not and you will not. Just because you can't or won't admit that doesn't mean I need to believe the lies you tell yourselves.
Edited by Judson on 4/6/2012 2:53 PM PDT
85 Draenei Warrior
13335
If you disagree and you want to prove me wrong then go 25man and clear 8/8 heroic DS.. You can not and you will not. Just because you can't or won't admit that doesn't mean I need to believe the lies you tell yourselves.


and the fact that they can't or won't proves it is different and deserves separate achievements
90 Night Elf Mage
15580
You don't want to admit that you would not have done it if you had been a 25 man guild.


boom
90 Orc Rogue
16470
Judson, I completely agree that separate achievements for 10’s and 25’s are a good idea. They would reward what is a very different raiding format that requires different efforts, and would provide more incentive to keep 25's alive.

I will disagree on the 10 vs. 25 difficulty analysis however, and will offer my counter points. Gold, your forum post has officially been hijacked!!! Might as well change the topic to 10's vs. 25's lol.

Judson, just a few counter-arguments to your points:
• The first and most obvious evidential proof is why do world first end-boss kills continue to be in a 25-man setting? Professional Korean gamers solely dedicated to 10-man raiding still have a hard time competing with their few counterparts with shorter gaming resumes who decided to do 25’s on the earliest world kills.

• Yes, DPS requirements are slightly lower in 10-man’s, but that is by Blizzard’s design to keep the difficulty the same as the average 10-man group doesn’t have every raid buff. Two-thirds of 10-man groups don’t have a ret pally, arcane mage or BM hunter in the group and that 3% alone wipes out most of the difference such a group would have versus a 25-man guild which very rarely has none of those classes/specs. In 10-mans if you go for every raid buff, you sacrifice the ability to stack the dominant classes. Taking the world first 25-heroic spine kill as an example, they had 7 arcane mages and 5 sub rogues for the burst advantage and still covered every raid buff. If you tried to do that in 10’s the individually dps gained would counter the raid buffs and raidwide dps lost.

And just for a little epeen I will point out that FE’s DPS keep up with your best in 25’s and then some: for example the past two times we have killed heroic Ultraxion kill our top 5 DPS (our standard five DPS players) averaged 40,748 DPS and 39,953 DPS (missing one buff) While the top five in TA averaged 38,649 DPS this past week (see http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/an9l9tkyrw857f9g/sum/damageDone/?s=6305&e=6568 , http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t9wywhm1d0ls9a64/sum/damageDone/?s=4269&e=4516 , and http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/t8voipy5ujiohkhl/sum/damageDone/?s=3084&e=3441). Going back to Wrath days to state how you think the top TA guys could compete equally with Ruthless (or FE) in 10’s right now is hard to prove based on WOTLK setting… the mindset of people in Wrath for 10-man’s was entirely different than it is today for obvious reasons.

• More people to mess up by standing in fire, dcing, etc is really an argument that ignores proportions. One death is much less significant in 25’s than it is in 10’s (4% of your team is dead instead of 10%, three battle rezzes to one as you mentioned). In 25’s you have proportionately more healers to heal the extra standing in fire. Some fights, 25’s also have more ability to sacrifice one spot at to negate a difficult mechanic--take Nefarian for example, it is easy to sacrifice one DPS for a third tank for the adds P1, a sacrifice that you simply couldn’t make in 10 man’s when the fight was relevant (would lose 20% of your dps on Ony/Nef, instead of 6-7%).

• Space—I will agree some fights 25’s can be at a disadvantage due to space, although many fights space isn’t relevant. This can also be countered by more bodies in close proximity equals an easier time to aoe heal. Yes, there are times that any one person screwing up will cause a wipe regardless if it is 10- or 25-man (like defile on lich king), and for that your related argument would be accurate, but most encounters don’t have a mechanic like that.

• As far as the attendance statement (more people to not show up, have real life issues), every raid team needs some type bench available to raid. In our 10’s we like to have 1 backup healer, 1 backup tank, and 1 backup dps (which may be the offspec of the backup tank or healer) which is 20-30% additional roster, raid prep for 25’s really is no more risky if you have a backup tank, a backup healer or two, and a few backup dps, which is a leadership difficulty. This isn’t a direct encounter difficulty argument, and I already agreed 25’s are more work to organize, lead, and manage. The same can be said about the personality conflicts… it is a question of leadership, extra people to put a muzzle on may be more work or an annoyance but it doesn’t have anything to do with fight difficulty, and can be completely negated by strong leadership.

To wrap up my long-winded post, 10 vs 25 difficulty is far from a one-sided debate, and can be looked at from both sides of the coin, but if you want to argue organizing and leading 25 people is more difficult in today’s raiding environment and should have achievements for that effort I agree with that.
Edited by Sneakysloth on 4/6/2012 3:27 PM PDT
100 Tauren Druid
16120
boom
100 Tauren Druid
16120
Thanks, by the way, for hijacking my post sneaky/judson... I just wanted to hear about everyone's favorite achievements... which by the way, neither of ou posted...

>^.^<
100 Orc Shaman
17240
*gets popcorn*
100 Tauren Druid
16120
However!!!!!!!!! I am not trying to argue 10 vs 25 and my goal with what I have said is not to put 10s down or debate difficulty..


so....

You don't want to admit that you would not have done it if you had been a 25 man guild. No matter how badly someone wants to claim it's the same, for the sake of their own pride, they are not the same. The things I pointed out and quoted can not be tuned out or balanced out of a fight.

Edit.. wanted to add..

If you disagree and you want to prove me wrong then go 25man and clear 8/8 heroic DS.. You can not and you will not. Just because you can't or won't admit that doesn't mean I need to believe the lies you tell yourselves.
hmm....

methinks you are trying to argue 10s vs. 25s, and maybe it would just hurt YOUR pride to admit that 10s and 25s are more balanced that what you are making them out to be...just a though..

>^.^<

EDIT:

Anyhow, we still have the realm first, and if you want to try and discredit that to make yourself feel better than by all means go ahead because I know, and the rest of our guild knows, all the hard work that went into getting it.
Edited by Mìstrfuzzles on 4/6/2012 4:14 PM PDT
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