Goldy's Top 10: Achievement Edition

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85 Blood Elf Paladin
9380
If you disagree and you want to prove me wrong then go 25man and clear 8/8 heroic DS.. You can not and you will not. Just because you can't or won't admit that doesn't mean I need to believe the lies you tell yourselves.


Tell me where to find 15 more willing and ABLE people.
90 Human Death Knight
16090
04/06/2012 03:26 PMPosted by Sneakysloth
The first and most obvious evidential proof is why do world first end-boss kills continue to be in a 25-man setting?

"Correlation does not imply causation" The answer to this is two different things. They way they view 25 vs 10 raiding and also due to loot. I would imagine that, on one hand, they feel like 25 is more "real" or w/e. This is of course my opinion and not a fact.

A more appropriate answer to this is the amount of loot that drops. 25man guilds can gear up faster, therefor they can push for world top progression faster, especially when multiple tiers are involved. As far as DS was concerned, all of the top 25man guilds had a ton of casters with the legendary staff, compared to the equivalent 10man guilds having far less casters with the legendary staff.

04/06/2012 03:26 PMPosted by Sneakysloth
Yes, DPS requirements are slightly lower in 10-man’s, but that is by Blizzard’s design to keep the difficulty the same as the average 10-man group doesn’t have every raid buff.
Yes sir, this is true but when I say that the enrage timers are too generous in 10man this is what I mean. Our first heroic kill of Morchok in 25man was right at, or right after the enrage timer. I believe it was the following week where there was a holiday or something going on and so we just made a 10man. This is where it gets tricky so follow me here. The 10man group did not have all main raiders and we did heroic morchock. When he died we had 2 minutes until enrage. TWO MINUTES until enrage.

When I discuss 10 and 25 man raiding, I am actually qualified to make statements of opinion based on the two because I have actually done both. As far as I know, TA and LH raiders are the only raiders here (on this server) qualified to provide first hand experience and feedback on the difficulty of content from both raiding formats throughout Cataclysm.

And just for a little epeen I will point out that FE’s DPS keep up with your best in 25’s and then some: for example the past two times we have killed heroic Ultraxion kill our top 5 DPS (our standard five DPS players) averaged 40,748 DPS and 39,953 DPS (missing one buff) While the top five in TA averaged 38,649 DPS this past week

Flex away! :)
I would like to point out for you though, that from the WoL information you posted we can see that the 25man version for TA was just shy of 6 minutes. Your two fights lasted 4.1 and 4.3 minutes. Shorter fight = higher portion of heroism, potion, and cooldown uptime. This of course, leads to higher dps. I would be happy to compare some logs where the bosses had equal health though. Please try it on 25man heroic and post those logs.
04/06/2012 03:26 PMPosted by Sneakysloth
Going back to Wrath days to state how you think the top TA guys could compete equally with Ruthless (or FE) in 10’s right now is hard to prove based on WOTLK setting… the mindset of people in Wrath for 10-man’s was entirely different than it is today for obvious reasons.
How? When we were allowed to raid both we kicked your butts in both. Now we can only raid 25 and you can only raid 10s but if you want to believe that you guys all magically got pro and it has nothing to do with you raiding 10man then I guess you're welcome to believe what ever you want to.

The only way I will be convinced otherwise is if either of the 10man guilds goes 25 for MoP and starts getting realm first that way. But, you won't, because you know (even if you're too proud to admit it) that even if you could get the people your progression would suffer. I do not mean to sound rude or derogatory.
90 Human Death Knight
16090
Tell me where to find 15 more willing and ABLE people.


that's kinda my point! :)
90 Human Death Knight
16090
04/06/2012 03:55 PMPosted by Mìstrfuzzles
Thanks, by the way, for hijacking my post sneaky/judson..
I sorry!

04/06/2012 03:55 PMPosted by Mìstrfuzzles
I just wanted to hear about everyone's favorite achievements... which by the way, neither of ou posted...
I did so! You didn't even read my 10 favorite achievements. :(

methinks you are trying to argue 10s vs. 25s, and maybe it would just hurt YOUR pride to admit that 10s and 25s are more balanced that what you are making them out to be...just a though..
No sir, I am explaining why achievements should be separated. I already stated that even if they are tweaked and balanced to be as close as possible in difficulty, there are still the other issue I quoted that are impossible to tweak or balance out.

04/06/2012 04:11 PMPosted by Mìstrfuzzles
Anyhow, we still have the realm first, and if you want to try and discredit that to make yourself feel better than by all means go ahead because I know, and the rest of our guild knows, all the hard work that went into getting it.
No sir, I am happy for you guys and have already stated my congratulations. I am not saying that it was easy because you did it on 10man but I am saying that you likely would not have done it on 25 (for reasons other than difficulty). I am also saying Ruthless wouldn't have the realm firsts that they have if they were still a 25man guild. That might sound harsh but it's just the truth.
90 Pandaren Priest
10480
Here is some simple math for you.

TG as a 25man guild was #6 on server?
TG as a 10 man guild was #1 on server?


i also can do simple math #1>#6
then why did u go to 25 man...seems silly

Why? Well along with the hard work, dedication and numerous wipes they put in on the content it is also because they trimmed the fat and 10s are easier due to everything I already quoted.


O here is the why, IF and thats a strong if what u said is true... Sounds like u can just walk into 10's these days and kill everything. Awesome! I mean who does that anymore, i like to grind out 25's just to make an xpac last months longer? Once again If this is true, i would definitely pick 25's over 10's anyday to make sure i killed something last....


I get it, I understand. They got some realm first and you got some realm first and you all do not want to admit it was easier. It would injure your pride to step up and say "Yeah, but we did it in 10man so meh." You don't want to admit that you would not have done it if you had been a 25 man guild. No matter how badly someone wants to claim it's the same, for the sake of their own pride, they are not the same. The things I pointed out and quoted can not be tuned out or balanced out of a fight.


Nope ill admit it, it was much easier. I feel sorry for silly raiders who do 25 mans and make things harder for themselves. BUT since i admitted that 10's are easier, will someone from 25 mans admit that doing 25 man raiding isnt for AMG THIS STUFF IS HARD....its just to say im in a 25 man and if a 10 man beats me to the punch, i can post on TH forums and say its because you are a 10 man.....or i have separate issues as a 25 man :) Of course u do! u are dealing with 15 more peeps......let me ask u a gentle but subtle question WHY?????

Edit.. wanted to add..

If you disagree and you want to prove me wrong then go 25man and clear 8/8 heroic DS.. You can not and you will not. Just because you can't or won't admit that doesn't mean I need to believe the lies you tell yourselves.


Also nothing is stopping 25 mans after there raid week is done to split into 2 10 mans and kill the last 3 H bosses.... I mean with the nerf its just lulzy now and you could absolutely prove me right or wrong(depends how u look at it). Should only take a 25 man that goes 10 a day or two to kill the bosses they havent i would think if all that is said is true. And then it would be easier for a 10 man to compare to the (im still doing ds as a 25 man cuz.........idk)25 man players on a log to log basis. Then we would know who actually wins the race :) This isnt WoLK anymore, u got choices now.
Edited by Saintjohn on 4/6/2012 5:17 PM PDT
90 Human Death Knight
16090
04/06/2012 03:26 PMPosted by Sneakysloth
More people to mess up by standing in fire, dcing, etc is really an argument that ignores proportions.
No sir it is not an argument that ignores proportions. How can you say that 2.5x the number of people having to not fail, not dc, is not proportional?

When working on new fights that you haven't downed yet, and when up against enrage timers as a lot of the 25man heroics do especially when you first get to them you can not afford for any one person to fail or DC.
If one player fails or dcs on 25 heroic domo with the seed debuff and doesn't run out of the group, it wipes the entire group.
If one person dies or fails on 25 heroic ultrax, especially if that person was part of the group that stays out for hour of twilight, it instantly wipes the raid group.
I can think of fights like this from every raid tier, and it's not something you can fairly compare the difficulty of.

04/06/2012 03:26 PMPosted by Sneakysloth
One death is much less significant in 25’s than it is in 10’s (4% of your team is dead instead of 10%, three battle rezzes to one as you mentioned).
Not when you're up against enrage timers it isn't.

04/06/2012 03:26 PMPosted by Sneakysloth
n 25’s you have proportionately more healers to heal the extra standing in fire.
As well as proportionately more people to heal...

04/06/2012 03:26 PMPosted by Sneakysloth
Some fights, 25’s also have more ability to sacrifice one spot at to negate a difficult mechanic--take Nefarian for example, it is easy to sacrifice one DPS for a third tank for the adds P1, a sacrifice that you simply couldn’t make in 10 man’s when the fight was relevant (would lose 20% of your dps on Ony/Nef, instead of 6-7%).
Hmm, i have never heard of this strat. Did you use this strat in your 25 Nef kill?

I apologize as I am unable to respond to the rest of your post at this time. I will have to get to the rest about spacing and attendance and such tomorrow (late for work.) Thanks for talking about it with me up to this point and I hope you aren't offended.
90 Pandaren Priest
10480
04/06/2012 05:16 PMPosted by Judson
Some fights, 25’s also have more ability to sacrifice one spot at to negate a difficult mechanic--take Nefarian for example, it is easy to sacrifice one DPS for a third tank for the adds P1, a sacrifice that you simply couldn’t make in 10 man’s when the fight was relevant (would lose 20% of your dps on Ony/Nef, instead of 6-7%).
Hmm, i have never heard of this strat. Did you use this strat in your 25 Nef kill?


UH wut??? lolol. Well i guess you could put a plate dps in a shield and weapon and do the same thing and say you didnt 3 tank it..but that still would mean 20% vs 6-7.... but ill post one that uses 3 tanks

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTlEAnZBF_k

Thats tankspots 25 man nef vid. Im sure they never did instructional videos... but they used 3 tanks...and as noobish as they are i found a 3 tank strat for 25 man nef. It took me all day too :)
90 Tauren Druid
15310
I grow tired of this thread...

Thanks for Hijacking :- /

Long story short, I see why you would like to see separate achievements, but, they aren't separate achievements. They are one and the same. The fact that you are downplaying the 10 man version, whether intended or not, is irrelevant.

That's all I have to say about that,

Look for a new TOP 10 next week

~Goldy
Edited by Mìstrfuzzles on 4/6/2012 6:43 PM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
9380
top 10 wohhaha/segregation/lightsaver moments?
90 Orc Rogue
16470
Sorry Gold, this will be my last post on this thread, promise :D , unless of course I feel like thinking about my favorite achievements ><

Not offended by this Judson, I enjoy a good debate from time to time. I could offer rebuttals to your counter arguments that you made to my previous post but you seem like a person who wants have the last say, and I wasn’t intending to go on and on with all of this, so I will let you have those points.

To wrap up, you keep pointing out if we want to prove we are the best we have to do it in a 25-man setting… we aren’t interested in that, we don’t see any advantages, we have success in a format that works for us, nobody is arguing that we would be as successful if we tried to do 25-mans. Every time you say this, in whatever shade it may be, it just sounds like trolling… the same as when you say we aren’t qualified to speak to 25-difficulty anymore (we can interpret data, and most of us have raided 25’s quite a bit prior to Cata… we get it).

Blizzard has stated that it is a clear goal in their development to have similar difficulty in 10- and 25-man raiding now, the results on wow progress validate this based on number of kills versus attempts of highly skilled 10-man guilds versus highly skilled 25-man guilds. I believe this even if you don’t. I am not questioning the challenges of filling a 25-man roster with decent players (especially on a low population server like Thunderhorn) which you openly admit holds back some of the better TA players from more success… you guys choose the 25-man format for your own reasons… most raiders these days just don’t think that way no matter how much you toot the 25-man horn.
90 Human Death Knight
16090
04/06/2012 05:12 PMPosted by Saintjohn
then why did u go to 25 man...seems silly


We didn't "go" to 25 man we've been 25man all along.

BUT since i admitted that 10's are easier, will someone from 25 mans admit that doing 25 man raiding isnt for AMG THIS STUFF IS HARD..


Yes sir. I don't choose to raid 25s because of "amg this stuff is hard."

04/06/2012 05:12 PMPosted by Saintjohn
Also nothing is stopping 25 mans after there raid week is done to split into 2 10 mans and kill the last 3 H bosses...
I hate to stoop to personal attacks but this is pretty ignorant. For starters you said "after the raid week is done" Not sure how the hell the raid week is done if you then split into 2 10man and continue pushing for progression. Where do you magically acquire two new tanks? What about the 5 players you are leaving out from your normal raid roster? Why the hell you would think a 25man raid group would bench 5 players, snap their fingers and get 2 more tanks, drop to 10man and push for progression after the raid week is done is beyond my comprehension.

UH wut??? lolol. Well i guess you could put a plate dps in a shield and weapon and do the same thing and say you didnt 3 tank it..but that still would mean 20% vs 6-7.... but ill post one that uses 3 tanks
You're right, I was wrong. I read what he said too quickly and misunderstood him. We did use 3 tanks for Nef. We also had a lot more Animated Bone Warriors to round up and deal with where as in 10man anyone picking them up and kiting them was fairly easy. In 10man, you only sacrifice that dps while the bone warriors are up for P1. in 25man with 3 tanks you sacrifice that dps for the entire fight so your math is still biased, backwards and wrong. :)

04/06/2012 06:28 PMPosted by Mìstrfuzzles
Long story short, I see why you would like to see separate achievements, but, they aren't separate achievements. They are one and the same.
Except that they aren't. You guys even admit they aren't and then turn around and say that they are..
04/06/2012 07:04 PMPosted by Sneakysloth
nobody is arguing that we would be as successful if we tried to do 25-mans.
Except that you are, especially when you guys say thiinks like the quote above this one.

If they are one in the same, if there is no difference, then you are saying you would be as successful if you tried to do 25mans. This is my entire point.

04/06/2012 07:04 PMPosted by Sneakysloth
To wrap up, you keep pointing out if we want to prove we are the best we have to do it in a 25-man setting…
No sir. I never said you needed to do it in 25 to be the best. I said you need to do it in 25 before you can say it's the same thing and deserves the same achievement.
90 Human Death Knight
16090
04/06/2012 07:04 PMPosted by Sneakysloth
Not offended by this Judson,
Good! I know I get carried away sometimes..
04/06/2012 07:04 PMPosted by Sneakysloth
I could offer rebuttals to your counter arguments that you made to my previous post but you seem like a person who wants have the last say, and I wasn’t intending to go on and on with all of this, so I will let you have those points.
If I do this, I don't mean to. Sorry!
04/06/2012 07:04 PMPosted by Sneakysloth
Every time you say this, in whatever shade it may be, it just sounds like trolling
Never that! But now you make me wonder if you guys are trolling me? Howdoing is out to get me!
04/06/2012 07:04 PMPosted by Sneakysloth
the same as when you say we aren’t qualified to speak to 25-difficulty anymore (we can interpret data, and most of us have raided 25’s quite a bit prior to Cata… we get it).
Well, any fight I have done in 25man I have also done in 10man, with the exception of the last few heroics we did in DS. So when you guys talk about and compare Cata fights that I have actually done in both settings, as if you have done them in both settings, I find that to be unfair, misleading and presumptuous. Additionally, you did not want me to apply my Wrath comparison to Cata so how is it fair for you to apply your BC experience to Cata?

You're basically saying that you did 25s in BC so you know what 25s in Cata would be like. This couldn't be further from the truth. It's pretty much the exact opposite of BC. Everyone wanted in on a 25man guild so they could raid beyond Kara. For this to make sense you would have to go back in time, allow 10mans for all raids in BC, same loot, achieve, ect..

Am I trying to say that we're better? No sir. I am saying we deserve separate achievements. I'm saying it's different and it is not the same. You even mentioned you aren't trying to say you would be as successful if you were a 25man guild. How can it be the same if you wouldn't have the same results?
90 Human Death Knight
16090
04/06/2012 06:28 PMPosted by Mìstrfuzzles
Look for a new TOP 10 next week


I'll try to not mess it up!
90 Human Paladin
15980
Here is some simple math for you.

TG as a 25man guild was #6 on server?
TG as a 10 man guild was #1 on server?


Why are there question marks after your simple math? Can you even count? I feel betrayed. I don't even know what to believe anymore.

P.S. After doing quite a few 25m raids on all of my toons to get that shiny 384 gear, I know what 25m raiding is like now.
90 Pandaren Priest
10480
Jud your raid week is tues and wed is it not? Its not ignorant to kill the last 3 H bosses on thur, fri, sat, sun, or mon in a 10 man if you can. You should be able to alt or pug the last 3 Normal bosses easily in your 25 man raid. Its ignorant to kill normal bosses when you can kill Heroic bosses in any fashion. Im sure you have a alt tank that can do norm versions of blackhorn, spine, and dw or another tank in guild that can do it. Save your pro dk and whoever else for the Heroic versions on 10 man for thur,fri,sat,sun or mon..... As far as saying get a 25 man together and then we can talk lol, IMO i think it would be much easier for u to get a 10 man and then we dont have this discussion anymore. Its still an alliance server with low pop.....

And these 10 mans you have killed the heroic bosses on, they have to be with the nerfs.... Bc we were very close on many enrages at the start and after the 1st kill our dps ranked very high on the logs. Mind you we didnt kill Norm dw the first week so we had to wait an extra week so there were alot of kills already on H mor....

Our first H Morchok kill was 6:02.... Yalls would be around the same btw.... Enrage timer is 7 min for both 10/25 man.
We had to take 4 healers at that time...so not including tanks its 1.05 mil per dps. In 25 man its usually 15-17 dps by the logs on H morhcok, and thats exactly the same amount of damage each dps has to have.

And as you say it took you a min longer than us, then the bottom tier of your dps is being pulled up by your top tier. Which is why i wonder why go through the 25 man headache anyway. Unless you are a casual guild then why care if the achievements are separate anyway? And i <3 Gold but i dont feel sorry for his thread...Ive seen him drunk derail some others posts :) <3 uOn a side note, Once you have killed a H boss majority of the time its much easier the next time...so when you went and did it on 10 man in the past, it was much easier than the wipes it took to get the first kill on 25 man. So absolutely your 10 man altish raids would be easier on Heroic.... At least this happens in our case.
Edited by Saintjohn on 4/7/2012 6:22 PM PDT
85 Blood Elf Paladin
9380

And i <3 Gold but i dont feel sorry for his thread...Ive seen him drunk derail some others posts :) <3 u


brb beermergency
90 Tauren Druid
15310
^ boobies
90 Human Death Knight
16090
Saintjohn, if i formed a 10man and got progression kills outside of the main raid I would not be in the guild for very long. You don't do that, it's just shady and dirty. The only content I could get away with this on is stuff from previous tiers and even then, sometimes, it's a grey area.

If the guild doesn't want to go back and clear it for meta/glory achievements and what not, then that's one thing.. but even with previous tiers you don't go back and finish it when the guild, as a 25man raid group, is still interested.

Thanks for being a good sport about all of the other stuff though :)
90 Orc Death Knight
18465
If the guild doesn't want to go back and clear it for meta/glory achievements and what not, then that's one thing.. but even with previous tiers you don't go back and finish it when the guild, as a 25man raid group, is still interested.


Where is all the fun then, goodsir? :|
90 Pandaren Priest
10480
Saintjohn, if i formed a 10man and got progression kills outside of the main raid I would not be in the guild for very long. You don't do that, it's just shady and dirty. The only content I could get away with this on is stuff from previous tiers and even then, sometimes, it's a grey area.

If the guild doesn't want to go back and clear it for meta/glory achievements and what not, then that's one thing.. but even with previous tiers you don't go back and finish it when the guild, as a 25man raid group, is still interested.

Thanks for being a good sport about all of the other stuff though :)
Heh, then i would say its about who u raid with and not getting an achievement :)

Although this discussion perked my interest on those top 100 guilds who have cleared both 25/10 Heroic modes and what they had to say.

ANd this is what i found from the blogs...(i took this instead of the developers since the developers think its balanced).

Tier 11.
10 mans Harder on almost every fight. Wasnt close. Im assuming this caused the tuning for t12 and t13.
This was won by a 10 man guild on TH

tier 12
I wasnt here for T12 but seems this was 10 man being tuned too much.
25's pretty much harder every fight

Tier 13
Morchok: 25 man harder only because you are closer to enrage. Other than that same difficulty. If you arent hitting enrage it shouldnt be any difference :)
Yorshaj: 25 man harder
Zonozz: Neutral
Hagara: 10 man harder by significant amount
Ultra: 25 man harder by alot
Blackhorn: Neutral
Spine: Since i dont count Madness as the endboss 25's have this endboss harder by alot. Kinda as 10's had nef and sinestra, you guys got spine :) Good luck with the 3 grips every 16 secs O.o which is the huge difference. Where as we got 1 every 32 sec. which would be 6 every 32 sec...thats not 2.5x more!!!!! comeon blizz :)
Madness: 10's is harder

So taking Morchok/Zonozz/Blackhorn out...since they are pretty much equal from what i read.

THis tier would be 2/6 10's and 3/6 25's repectively

This was taken from opinions of top 100 guild raiders and their blogs and responses. Cata post mortem, etc.
Edited by Saintjohn on 4/9/2012 8:34 PM PDT
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