Mages look weak in MOP #2 continued

55 Undead Rogue
9055


If the problem was synergy alone the reprsentation for locks would not be as high as it is with other compositions also.

Once again I refer you to real #'s and stop lying

http://www.arenastats.com

Math and statistics are a !@#$% eh?


I started reading hoping this would shine some light into the mage transformation. Too bad it's led by this guy. All the valid points are lost under his constant stream of tears.

Too bad.

And honestly, if you don't understand WHY locks are represented so highly, then you shouldn't be posting your "math and statistics". There's two spells that bring locks high into competitive play. We're arena support. Maybe if our felpuppy can get a good crit, we can also pressure, but generally no.
Exactly this. However it's lost on the OP. He has convinced that himself, that he is on to quote Knight rider "a young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law."

Too bad the message is lost in translation.
Reply Quote
04/11/2012 02:26 PMPosted by Sythrus
No one is gonna take temporal shield over ice barrier, same with cauterize and cold snap. Actually play a mage for real before commenting kthx. Also calling mages a cannon is downright funny considering they will never get to fire.

The talent system in MoP is designed to be a non-cookie cutter, meaning that you can actually choose instead of web search for the best spec. You believe that you represent all mages, deliberately skip talents that are for survival and complain about survival. You also pick defensive talents from warlock and complain about it as you also represents warlock too.

You made it sounded like frost mage can no longer slow down its targets, but it is as effective in MoP as live. You complain about those new talent abilities from other classes and focus on the ones that is designed to ignore rooting/slowing affect and made it sounded like it only hurts mage. Sorry, but the key point that you have missed is that a melee don't need that talent to kill any other casters but a mage.

What I have problem is how you drag Warlock into the water and made it sounded like Warlock > Mage in MoP so it isn't fair. Really? Mage lost 15% defense on a spell, Warlock lost 2 spells! AoE fear is gone and we need to choose beween instant AoE fear, DC or shadowfury. Soul Link was a base line and now is a talent, but I won't say we lost SL because the other 2 spells in that tier is new. Instead of an active armor, it is now a passive baseline ability and healing bonus drop from 30% to 10%. In other words, we lost fel armor and gain 10% healing bonus, 10% stamina, and 2345 armor as a baseline. In other words, we lost the original fel armor where it increase damage and gain a nerfed demon armor as a passive ability. Complain much?
Reply Quote
90 Human Paladin
14125
I've leveled a number of classes but my Mage is just destroying. I know from experience as a Ret Paladin how powerful Mages are. Leveling a Mage isn't the same thing as being a level 85 Mage, but I do believe that Mages are too powerful. Too many tools to save themselves and play keep away.

When you say a Mage is weak, I say it's probably just right.
Reply Quote
2 Undead Mage
0
I've leveled a number of classes but my Mage is just destroying. I know from experience as a Ret Paladin how powerful Mages are. Leveling a Mage isn't the same thing as being a level 85 Mage, but I do believe that Mages are too powerful. Too many tools to save themselves and play keep away.

When you say a Mage is weak, I say it's probably just right.

So mages can kill weak quest npc's well that obviously justifies them being bad at pvp? You also think its fine because you can train mages to no end up with a ranged 50% slow, 40% sprint with 60% uptime all the while being able to cleanse 3 times every 20 second to completely ignore roots and freedom to ignore slows.

If only people could leave their gripes from cata behind them and actually try to get stuff balanced for real.
Reply Quote
85 Orc Warlock
5950
lolololol if only the OP was trolling.
Reply Quote
90 Worgen Warrior
10150
I've leveled a number of classes but my Mage is just destroying. I know from experience as a Ret Paladin how powerful Mages are. Leveling a Mage isn't the same thing as being a level 85 Mage, but I do believe that Mages are too powerful. Too many tools to save themselves and play keep away.

When you say a Mage is weak, I say it's probably just right.

So mages can kill weak quest npc's well that obviously justifies them being bad at pvp? You also think its fine because you can train mages to no end up with a ranged 50% slow, 40% sprint with 60% uptime all the while being able to cleanse 3 times every 20 second to completely ignore roots and freedom to ignore slows.

If only people could leave their gripes from cata behind them and actually try to get stuff balanced for real.


First, frost mages are not currently bad in PVP in the MoP beta. They are not as strong as they were in Cata but I have seen frost mages perform amazingly in the beta and I have read other frost mage posters saying that frost is very good right now and that fire is kind of weak. We cannot forget about frost mages in Cata because the comparison provides a basis for the changes in MoP. Frost mages will NOT have the same control that they had in Cata, but they will be able to come close to it at the expense of damage output..if they so choose. So you will see defensive spec frost mages who can control their opponents and let their teammates beat them up or glass cannon specs that cannot control their opponents but will try to pump out as much damage as they can before they die. You will NOT see frost mages that enjoy both great control and great damage as they did in Cata. If you cannot see the justification for this...you are just being unreasonable.

One thing you will not see, however, is a frost mage nova-ing a hunter and crowding him due to the removal of the ranged requirement on hunter damage. I so hated the cheapness of being frost nova-ed and crowded to death. Thankfully, that will be a thing of the past in MoP. Should make things interesting for MM hunters and frost mages in PVP. I cannot wait.
Reply Quote
First, frost mages are not currently bad in PVP in the MoP beta. They are not as strong as they were in Cata but I have seen frost mages perform amazingly in the beta and I have read other frost mage posters saying that frost is very good right now and that fire is kind of weak. We cannot forget about frost mages in Cata because the comparison provides a basis for the changes in MoP. Frost mages will NOT have the same control that they had in Cata, but they will be able to come close to it at the expense of damage output..if they so choose. So you will see defensive spec frost mages who can control their opponents and let their teammates beat them up or glass cannon specs that cannot control their opponents but will try to pump out as much damage as they can before they die. You will NOT see frost mages that enjoy both great control and great damage as they did in Cata. If you cannot see the justification for this...you are just being unreasonable.

One thing you will not see, however, is a frost mage nova-ing a hunter and crowding him due to the removal of the ranged requirement on hunter damage. I so hated the cheapness of being frost nova-ed and crowded to death. Thankfully, that will be a thing of the past in MoP. Should make things interesting for MM hunters and frost mages in PVP. I cannot wait.

QFT
Reply Quote
90 Goblin Mage
9540


So mages can kill weak quest npc's well that obviously justifies them being bad at pvp? You also think its fine because you can train mages to no end up with a ranged 50% slow, 40% sprint with 60% uptime all the while being able to cleanse 3 times every 20 second to completely ignore roots and freedom to ignore slows.

If only people could leave their gripes from cata behind them and actually try to get stuff balanced for real.


First, frost mages are not currently bad in PVP in the MoP beta. They are not as strong as they were in Cata but I have seen frost mages perform amazingly in the beta and I have read other frost mage posters saying that frost is very good right now and that fire is kind of weak. We cannot forget about frost mages in Cata because the comparison provides a basis for the changes in MoP. Frost mages will NOT have the same control that they had in Cata, but they will be able to come close to it at the expense of damage output..if they so choose. So you will see defensive spec frost mages who can control their opponents and let their teammates beat them up or glass cannon specs that cannot control their opponents but will try to pump out as much damage as they can before they die. You will NOT see frost mages that enjoy both great control and great damage as they did in Cata. If you cannot see the justification for this...you are just being unreasonable.

One thing you will not see, however, is a frost mage nova-ing a hunter and crowding him due to the removal of the ranged requirement on hunter damage. I so hated the cheapness of being frost nova-ed and crowded to death. Thankfully, that will be a thing of the past in MoP. Should make things interesting for MM hunters and frost mages in PVP. I cannot wait.


If we don't crowd control, we die. We're the squishiest class in the game. Priests can heal themselves, warlocks have myriad mitigation talents. Further, they have a lot of instant cast spells that allow them to still perform even while being trained. We do not.

Our pvp model is unique because it's game of keep away. But if we fail to keep someone away, we're dead. People get frustrated by this because there are no other classes like it - we're the last true kite class of WoW, and now that is being taken away from us without giving us a new model in return. Call mages OP all you want, we were definitely balanced if you counted out mastery stacking humans. The problem is that we were balanced around different spells/abilities like dispel (something that warlocks and priests have protection against) or anti-root mechanics.

Our identity is being taken away, and now we're a turreting clothie. With as much immunity effects and CC's being thrown out to players in the new talent system, we may as well be a sack of meat against halfway decent players.
Edited by Terrorific on 4/13/2012 10:06 AM PDT
Reply Quote
97 Dwarf Hunter
17320
04/13/2012 10:06 AMPosted by Terrorific
If we don't crowd control, we die. We're the squishiest class in the game. Priests can heal themselves, warlocks have myriad mitigation talents. Further, they have a lot of instant cast spells that allow them to still perform even while being trained. We do not.

Let's see, what new survivability abilities are mages getting this xpac...

Temporal shield, incanter's ward (mana shield that restores mana instead), cauterize or instant invis for all specs, alter time. I think I got them all, that's a lot of shield and damage negating abilities.
Reply Quote
If we don't crowd control, we die. We're the squishiest class in the game. Priests can heal themselves, warlocks have myriad mitigation talents. Further, they have a lot of instant cast spells that allow them to still perform even while being trained. We do not.

Let's see, what new survivability abilities are mages getting this xpac...

Temporal shield, incanter's ward (mana shield that restores mana instead), cauterize or instant invis for all specs, alter time. I think I got them all, that's a lot of shield and damage negating abilities.

Read the rest of his post. It's about losing the identity of the Mage's unique gameplay. We're heading in a direction where it's about withstanding damage and keep turretting our target, which is the complete opposite of what being a Mage in PvP or leveling PvE has always been about.

Being able to completely avoid getting hit but remain a glass cannon was what brought most people that aren't FotM to roll Mages in the first place. I know that it was what brought me to roll 3-4 Mages over those last 7 years, but losing this kind of gameplay in PvP/Leveling is making me wish I wasn't a Mage right now going into Mists.
Edited by Eladen on 4/13/2012 10:23 AM PDT
Reply Quote
97 Dwarf Hunter
17320
04/13/2012 10:21 AMPosted by Eladen

Let's see, what new survivability abilities are mages getting this xpac...

Temporal shield, incanter's ward (mana shield that restores mana instead), cauterize or instant invis for all specs, alter time. I think I got them all, that's a lot of shield and damage negating abilities.

Read the rest of his post. It's about losing the identity of the Mage's unique gameplay. We're heading in a direction where it's about withstanding damage and keep turretting our target, which is the complete opposite of what being a Mage in PvP or leveling PvE has always been about.

Being able to completely avoid getting hit but remain a glass cannon was what brought most people that aren't FotM to roll Mages in the first place. I know that it was what brought me to roll 3-4 Mages over those last 7 years, but losing this kind of gameplay in PvP/Leveling is making wish I wasn't a Mage right now going into Mists.

Well if you don't want to get hit I have some good news for you:

Blazing speed, ice ward, greater invis, frost bomb, baseline deep freeze, glyph of momentum.

I'd say you still have quite a bit of tools to get away, those abilities on top of the one you already have.
Reply Quote
1 Gnome Mage
0
04/13/2012 10:31 AMPosted by Marathel
unless they had pocket healers


If you're pvping without a healer you're doing it wrong.
Reply Quote
85 Human Hunter
2875
04/13/2012 10:38 AMPosted by Dòlò
unless they had pocket healers


If you're pvping without a healer you're doing it wrong.
Unless you're triple DEEPS then YEAH!YOU'RE DOING IT RIGHT !
Reply Quote
Well if you don't want to get hit I have some good news for you:

Blazing speed, ice ward, greater invis, frost bomb, baseline deep freeze, glyph of momentum.

I'd say you still have quite a bit of tools to get away, those abilities on top of the one you already have.

And most of those tools are talents. I'd also like to point out, as awesome as the Glyph of Momentum looks, it is entirely, completely useless to any Mage who got used to using Blink appropriately, or even better, to use Gegon's Vanishing Blink.

I'm not saying we're losing every damn tool we've ever had and I'm not here to QQ. I'm trying to give feedback about how I'm unhappy of the direction Mage survivability is taking. As I said, it's going the complete opposite of what I loved about Mages, with additions like the Glyph of Spellsteal (that I'm so glad it got nerfed to 3%), Invocation + Glyph of Evocation, Symbiosis giving Healing Touch, Alter Time, Temporal Shield, buffed Ice Barrier, Incanter's Ward, etc...

It just does not feel right. After playing a class for 7 years that was all about kiting enemies and making sure they do not hit me, I'm going the opposite direction and instead making sure that their abilities just don't hit my green bar but some other ability instead. Withstanding damage or even healing it, instead of avoiding it. It's a drastically different gameplay.

Sadly not as true in Cataclysm as it was in WotLK/BC/Vanilla, but ending a fight with 80% hp as a Mage does not necessarily mean I completely crushed my opponent, but rather that I was able to beat him before he could smash that remaining 80% hp in a matter of seconds.

If in MoP we keep going in the direction Blizzard wants for Mages, if I end up at 80% HP at the end of a fight, it will just be because I completely beat my opponent hands down because I either absorbed all of his hits and laughed at him, or he somehow never was able to really touch me which means he was truly bad with MoP's model.
Edited by Eladen on 4/13/2012 11:12 AM PDT
Reply Quote
Glass cannons were fury warriors back at the end of Wrath. They had absolutely nothing to help them but damage. That is a real glass cannon. As much as you guys are losing in MOP you're gaining a ridiculous amount back and what is staying as well. Really there is no room for complaining on the number of tools.

The damage was so great with lolmourne they destroyed everything. If they were caught in any type of CC chain they were dead unless they had pocket healers. Even then it was just healing through the damage.

I don't know... my old game manual said Mages were glass cannons, avoiding damage at all costs even twisting time itself, just to blast my foes with balls of fire.

And as I said, I'm not complaining about the number of tools or anything, but more of the use of those tools, the direction Mage survivability is taking.
Edited by Eladen on 4/13/2012 11:08 AM PDT
Reply Quote
97 Dwarf Hunter
17320
I'm not saying we're losing every damn tool we've ever had and I'm not here to QQ. I'm trying to give feedback about how I'm unhappy of the direction Mage survivability is taking. As I said, it's going the complete opposite of what I loved about Mages, with additions like the Glyph of Spellsteal (that I'm so glad it got nerfed to 3%), Invocation + Glyph of Evocation, Symbiosis giving Healing Touch, Alter Time, Temporal Shield, buffed Ice Barrier, Incanter's Ward, etc...

Warlocks and hunters PvP is also being changed fundamentally as well. Mostly because we are to weak in it and deserve to be stronger, mages need to be nerfed in PvP, do you think that will be a fun change?
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)
Submit Cancel

Reported!

[Close]