Gm in a bit of a bind, between two people...

5 Tauren Shaman
0
Hi, As the title says I am the GM of a raiding guild, a progression raiding guild that isn't hardcore, but not weak either we have been pushing many hardmodes and while we havn't the best progression we just hit 3/8HM and pushing the fourth and fifth soon, We've got morchock zonozz and yorsahj down almost ultraxion and working on hagara, anyway the problem we have.

Person A is female, and a resto shaman her performance leaves somethings to desire, Talks about herself alot, overly social but she's been in the guild a year

Person B is a disc priest, She never really talks at all, and her performance compared to the shaman is like comparing a bugatti veyron against a moped, Her being the Veyron, (It's a car with like 4 turbos and a v8 engine) Never the less Person B has some of the highest output i've ever seen on any given fight she is 60%+ of the groups TOTAL healing done somefights she hit 80% and she solo healed heroic morchock without breaking a sweat. She's been in the guild maybe two months.Person A has maybe 78% attendance, person B 100%,

Person A talks alot person B never says a thing, wich is understandable she's a mute, She doesn't really say much in G Chat, She logs in, Raids, does a few other things, Logs off. Needless to say from a raiding point Person B is immaculate, perfection in a bottle.Now, Person A and B don't get along, At all, not one bit, And i feel i may have to choose between the two of them, To give people an idea, Person A tried to pull Gender superiority on person B, Person B retaliated with alot of very powerful and hurtful comments, so much that she made person A cry over vent, And part of me thinks she deserved it, That said trying to sort an argument out between the two is almost impossible, Thoughts? Person B seems to be well liked amongst the rest of the guild were as PErson A is simply well known and somewhat of a veteran.
Edited by Staek on 4/11/2012 1:43 PM PDT
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5 Tauren Shaman
0
What am i supposed to do?
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85 Human Paladin
3300
If person A is well liked you may get other raiders to jump ship....but if no one's going to miss her I'd say boot her if they can't put their distain for each other aside for a several hours a week. That said, you're a progession guild, progession should be paramount, not social hour so they may understand. In addition to her lackluster play.

In your situation, being a progression guild 'n all and if push comes to shove, I'd kick "A" in a heartbeat.
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5 Tauren Shaman
0
Person A is simply well known there are few who like her, And those are mostly the people she has a tendancy to flirt with, But it appears to be harmful flirting, then theres person B, i can say it without a doubt, That our tanks would die for person B

I mean Person A died to the first hour of twilight, Person B solo healed the group from 80ish percent to 35 Where we had someone Dc and it was a wipe.
Edited by Staek on 4/11/2012 2:21 PM PDT
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90 Worgen Druid
16355
Sounds like you already picked person B.

You should talk to both 1 on 1 though and then possibly in a group setting to see if you can squash their feud or at least push it out of guild affairs enough to maintain the roster.
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5 Tauren Shaman
0
Sounds like you already picked person B.

You should talk to both 1 on 1 though and then possibly in a group setting to see if you can squash their feud or at least push it out of guild affairs enough to maintain the roster.



I've tried that, I've tried everything i can think of, It'd be like putting two positivly charged Ions in the same room they instantly repell eachother especialy after the latest event.
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85 Tauren Paladin
7245
I'd say from your description that Person A is a bit of the manipulative type. Someone doesn't pull the gender card unless they are used to getting their way using such underhanded tactics, and I'd even go as far to say that this person crying over vent could simply be part of such a strategy to gather support. Such things are not uncommon, unfortunately.

Taking any personal viewpoints out, you have a person who is unreliable in raid attendance and healing capability who seems to be detrimental to your overall progression, and then you have a person who is to the point and does her job. She does her job very well, if your descriptions are accurate.

Honestly, I could see why Person B would snap at such behaviour from Person A. It is completely unwarranted, and quite frankly childish. Being a veteran, being social, etc is no excuse for unacceptable behaviour towards people who do not incur it justifiably in any way, shape or form.

Spring is time for Spring cleaning, and Person A seems to be looking rather like a dust bunny.
Edited by Draedan on 4/11/2012 2:52 PM PDT
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58 Blood Elf Death Knight
110
I'd say from your description that Person A is a bit of the manipulative type. Someone doesn't pull the gender card unless they are used to getting their way using such underhanded tactics, and I'd even go as far to say that this person crying over vent could simply be part of such a strategy to gather support. Such things are not uncommon, unfortunately.

Taking any personal viewpoints out, you have a person who is unreliable in raid attendance and healing capability who seems to be detrimental to your overall progression, and then you have a person who is to the point and does her job. She does her job very well, if your descriptions are accurate.

Honestly, I could see why Person B would snap at such behaviour from Person A. It is completely unwarranted, and quite frankly childish. Being a veteran, being social, etc is no excuse for unacceptable behaviour towards people who do not incur it justifiably in any way, shape or form.

Spring is time for Spring cleaning, and Person A seems to be looking rather like a dust bunny.


Your words sir blew my mind. I would have never put it in any better way.
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5 Tauren Shaman
0
I'd say from your description that Person A is a bit of the manipulative type. Someone doesn't pull the gender card unless they are used to getting their way using such underhanded tactics, and I'd even go as far to say that this person crying over vent could simply be part of such a strategy to gather support. Such things are not uncommon, unfortunately.

Taking any personal viewpoints out, you have a person who is unreliable in raid attendance and healing capability who seems to be detrimental to your overall progression, and then you have a person who is to the point and does her job. She does her job very well, if your descriptions are accurate.

Honestly, I could see why Person B would snap at such behaviour from Person A. It is completely unwarranted, and quite frankly childish. Being a veteran, being social, etc is no excuse for unacceptable behaviour towards people who do not incur it justifiably in any way, shape or form.

Spring is time for Spring cleaning, and Person A seems to be looking rather like a dust bunny.


Your words sir blew my mind. I would have never put it in any better way.
There are a few people that enjoy person A's presence, and while i thought it to be harmful flirting and the like it may have caused some slight damage to the guild, I disagree with how person b went about it, She fought hard to get her raiding spot that was for sure, But when the dramasplosion happend, She certainly wasn't holding back whcih makes me feel out of control of things, Not something i like exactly, I feel so conflicted in this.
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85 Tauren Paladin
7245
You can't micro-manage everything with a guild, as much as you may like to. For better or worse, the natural flow of things still goes on even without your careful eye.

I myself would not hold anything back against a person who would resort to some of the lowest "Get my way" tactics someone can carry out. If anything, Person A was given a slap of reality to the face, and will play it up more than it actually is. While it may not be pretty, sometimes people need to be reminded that just because they are one gender or the other, have friends in "high" places, etc that they are just as accountable for their actions as everyone else.

Now, if Person B was to go and say... flip out on everyone for every little sarcastic comment and whatnot, I could see the reason for your reservation to remove Person A, but you have not supplied any information regarding such things, so I assume it not to be the case.
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90 Orc Death Knight
9760
Clearly the second healer B is better in every way, seeing as no guild drama with flirting and overall output of healing to a point of carrying. Yes the person has been in the guild a long time, but sometimes you just need to get rid of the people that are holding you back.
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85 Goblin Warlock
10780
Boot person A. Anyone who follows her is not suited for progression raiding.
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90 Gnome Warlock
11055
I'd get rid of person A and keep person B. Or at the very least talk to person A and tell them to cool it, and if she doesn't, then give the boot. As you said, person B is basically all you could ask for, and if she loses her cool when attacked...how can you blame her?
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I'd put them both on notice.

Performance is a distraction, and I'd recommend you take it out of the equation. You also shouldn't consider whether this one or that one is more or less well-liked. Look at the specific situation, and the behaviors of each in this situation.

Using that perspective, both of these people messed up -- I completely agree with Draedan in his/her assessment of person A, but I also think person B shouldn't have escalated the conflict. A snappy comment is one thing, but a prolonged attack is quite another. I think you need to have a serious conversation with each of them and let them know that they don't have to be best friends, but they do need to be able to resolve their disagreements to the extent that it won't continue to affect the guild or raid team. If they can't, they should go about finding another guild.

Would it hurt your progression to lose two healers? No doubt. But I think it would hurt your guild worse over the long term to let your members think you will tolerate this kind of sniping within your team.
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5 Tauren Shaman
0
I'd put them both on notice.

Performance is a distraction, and I'd recommend you take it out of the equation. You also shouldn't consider whether this one or that one is more or less well-liked. Look at the specific situation, and the behaviors of each in this situation.

Using that perspective, both of these people messed up -- I completely agree with Draedan in his/her assessment of person A, but I also think person B shouldn't have escalated the conflict. A snappy comment is one thing, but a prolonged attack is quite another. I think you need to have a serious conversation with each of them and let them know that they don't have to be best friends, but they do need to be able to resolve their disagreements to the extent that it won't continue to affect the guild or raid team. If they can't, they should go about finding another guild.

Would it hurt your progression to lose two healers? No doubt. But I think it would hurt your guild worse over the long term to let your members think you will tolerate this kind of sniping within your team.


If you take out both performance, And how well they are liked within the guild Then it leaves you with only how long both of them have been here, and who fired the first shot, And it is hard to tell who really fired the first shot, Person A was discussing their social life and how this that and the other was going on in vent, and how she's tired of everyone asking her out, And Person B asked why we needed to know this, Especialy in the middle of a raid, Trying to do heroic modes, I am inclined to agree with Person B on that matter, Raid time is for raiding, In that sense you could say Person B threw the first stone, but it was a harmless question, It was person A that started and told her to 'shut her [Expletive deleted] Mouth'

That said, It was also person B, who didn't hold back once the first stone was throne, It would be like shooting someone in the foot only to have them turn around and throw Nuclear weapons straight back at them, Other then that, Person B has been ever silent since she joined the guild, Hell i didn't even know it was a She till the other day, Rarely mentions anything but the raids, And this would be the first time i've seen her do anything remotely drama based.
Edited by Staek on 4/12/2012 7:10 AM PDT
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Think about how this reflects on you as GM and RL.

You have been supporting a drama queen and terrible raider at the sacrifice of progression and morale. If you do nothing, you'll be cementing that perception.

"B" is probably already wondering if she should find another guild, and waiting to see what you do.
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85 Tauren Shaman
3175
When I was guild leading I had this type of stuff happen often. My solution was always to inform them that I was aware of the isue, and it was up to them to solve it or otherwise keep it out of the guild. If it didn't, I was going to fix the problem by removing both elements. In this case, it would be Player A and Player B.

You're a guild leader. You're not a camp counselor or a couples the*%%!@@. You're not there to teach them people skills. Set the tone of what is acceptable and what's not, and then enforce it. It's up to the guild members to meet that expectation, or suffer the consequences.

Sounds harsh, perhaps, but the alternative is neither a fun nor rewarding road to go down. The minor headache that would result of one or both of them being removed because they were unable to act in a suitable manner regarding the other is a far smaller headache than trying to "fix" the issue and creating an on-going mess and precedence to do more of the same in the future. Put your foot down, set the bar, and let them meet it.
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85 Draenei Paladin
8340
04/11/2012 02:52 PMPosted by Draedan
Spring is time for Spring cleaning, and Person A seems to be looking rather like a dust bunny.


OMG, that's my laugh for the day. Have to agree, but for one thing. And that is Person B's behavior. If it hadn't been for the way she retaliated I'd say just remove Person A and be done with it.

But I know Evol's approach is much better. And having given that warning remove whoever steps out of line. Although from what you describe of Person A's performance and attendance you would seem to have cause to remove her from the raid group on that front as well.
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90 Night Elf Warrior
10970
Alright, I might get some idealist to disagree with me, but if you want to do the least damage to your guild as possible, kick Person A but make sure to discredit her by any subtle way possible, make her take the blame is a way that could be beleivable by the guild, and get her removed.

If your guildies trust you and your judgement, nobody will follow her and she will be forgotten.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
16505
Person A was discussing their social life and how this that and the other was going on in vent, and how she's tired of everyone asking her out, And Person B asked why we needed to know this, Especialy in the middle of a raid, Trying to do heroic modes, I am inclined to agree with Person B on that matter, Raid time is for raiding, In that sense you could say Person B threw the first stone, but it was a harmless question, It was person A that started and told her to 'shut her [Expletive deleted] Mouth'


Girl A would have been removed from my raid immediately for this.

Draedan has already explained things wonderfully, so I'll keep my thoughts short. If Girl B has superior performance and attendance, and Girl A has a history of trying to start trouble with her, the choice seems obvious. Since Girl A is a social person, maybe she would enjoy remaining in guild as a social member - but only pending a discussion about how to treat other guild members. She'll wonder why she is being replaced, which is a perfect time to gently explain this to her.
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