Guide to Rath Strat AV's (Update Coming Soon)

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85 Tauren Shaman
8945
Also that isn't the definition of a choke point. You are just trying to use the 300 story.

Yup, they are two paths the collide into one path. The choke can be handled. Just try it instead of putting it down saying it wont work. You have a narrow path leading to SHGY which can easily be defended. 1-2 ele shamans with a boomkin can knock people off the edges almost all day.

So that isolates everything on left side and keeps your reinforcements coming from the GY. Once you are at the log you do have the archers support. What I said before you can ISOLATE the IBT at the choke. You can make it so those archers do not even hit you. At SHGY choke you pick if and when you want to use most of the archers just by falling back a little.

If you don't think you can make a good choke out of that I'm baffled. I remember a game I was leading using the FoS as a choke. That is a huge place also. Also think about if the GY gets Ninja'd. Would you rather fall back and take it? Or would you rather push up and take it? I can put it another way for you also. Would you rather gain ground or lose ground? Could take a few people to get that GY back if a few rogues shadowstep into the gy and maybe a prot warrior heroic leaps up there. Get the the flag ninja it. 4 rogues can keep a big number off that flag.

There is always pros and cons for everything. I do see a lot of advantages to SHGY choke. Think about it these way also. More room to run by people will try and run by. Smaller area people will always dismount and fight. at SHGY you are going to get people trying to constantly trying to run by. You also have that OP ram sitting there which always seems to find me.
90 Human Rogue
2845
Also that isn't the definition of a choke point. You are just trying to use the 300 story.

That's exactly what a choke point is.

Your posts are overflowing with confirmation bias. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge extremely blatant advantages/disadvantages just leads me to believe you're trolling, or unbelievably stubborn.
Edited by Esclamayshun on 5/1/2012 7:48 AM PDT
90 Night Elf Hunter
13740
05/01/2012 07:28 AMPosted by Chéwnok
I remember a game I was leading using the FoS as a choke.


05/01/2012 07:28 AMPosted by Chéwnok
You also have that OP ram sitting there which always seems to find me.


Field of stryfe is a chokepoint and the alliance have OP rams helping hold down their choke's.

He seems like a tactical genius to me. Obviously we need to sit back and let him tell us how the entire map so clearly favors alliance.
85 Tauren Shaman
8945
That isn't what a choke point is. So every street is a choke point? A choke point is the enemy force has to go through point X to get to point Y. There should not be 4-5 ways to get to point Y. But if 4-5 paths all fall onto on path that intersection is a choke point. It has nothing to do with numbers.

05/01/2012 07:42 AMPosted by Esclamayshun
Your posts are overflowing with confirmation bias. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge extremely blatant advantages/disadvantages just leads me to believe you're trolling, or unbelievably stubborn.


I could say the same thing about you. If you want to call me a troll because I disagree with you then fine. By all means you are a troll then. You are refusing to acknowledge blatant advantages with SHGY choke. You just seem so stubborn that you are correct you wont even recognize that it is a good choke. Are you also the same person who said the bridge was a terrible choke also? Yet alliance premades use this bridge all the time and win all the time with it.

Pae you are a child if you took that ram comment serious. Sorry for using the FoS as a choke when we got pinned down and were slowing trying to gain ground to get to the north choke point. Like in real life I believe in gaining ground is very important. Any person who has been to any advanced infantry type schools would agree with that comment. By all means tell me all your tactical wisdom you have learned from playing video games.
Edited by Chéwnok on 5/1/2012 8:04 AM PDT
90 Human Rogue
2845
That isn't what a choke point is. So every street is a choke point? A choke point is the enemy force has to go through point X to get to point Y. There should not be 4-5 ways to get to point Y. But if 4-5 paths all fall onto on path that intersection is a choke point. It has nothing to do with numbers.

Then perhaps I should say a good choke point is one that can stop a larger force from using their number advantage. And by that distinction alone, IBGY choke > SHGY choke.

I could say the same thing about you. If you want to call me a troll because I disagree with you then fine. By all means you are a troll then. You are refusing to acknowledge blatant advantages with SHGY choke. You just seem so stubborn that you are correct you wont even recognize that it is a good choke. Are you also the same person who said the bridge was a terrible choke also? Yet alliance premades use this bridge all the time and win all the time with it.

This is where you're wrong. I don't deny the advantages of SHGY, or the bridge. I never have. But I do not agree that they are as strategically sound as Iceblood choke point. I just can't honestly see it. When I ran scorched earth, the alliance never stood a chance. And I did it in pugs. That cluster of the map is far too defensible compared to the alliance counterparts. You make good points about how you would use SHGY as a choke, but I still just don't see it being as good as Iceblood.

The only time the alliance stood a chance of winning AV then was if the majority of the horde team wanted a quick game, and would ride past Iceblood choke. Even so, it was pretty amazing what just a handful of people could do at that choke to stop alliance. Years later, the map is almost identical, with the exception of the cave being moved back. But horde can still get to Iceblood before the alliance, so the change didn't do anything to stop scorched earth.
Edited by Esclamayshun on 5/1/2012 9:24 AM PDT
90 Night Elf Hunter
13740
05/01/2012 08:00 AMPosted by Chéwnok
Pae you are a child if you took that ram comment serious. Sorry for using the FoS as a choke when we got pinned down and were slowing trying to gain ground to get to the north choke point. Like in real life I believe in gaining ground is very important. Any person who has been to any advanced infantry type schools would agree with that comment. By all means tell me all your tactical wisdom you have learned from playing video games.


You are talking to an Iraqi war veteran. I probably have more military knowledge from serving my country than you will ever gain from the internet or video games.

You dont even understand the word chokepoint. A wide open field that can be approached by the enemy from 360 degrees does not consitute a "chokepoint". There are these things in warfare called terrain advantage, flanking, attacking from multiple angles, using superior numbers to envelope the enemy, chokepoints, etc. These things should be common military tactics knowledge yet you don't even agree with them so how are we to have a rational discussion with you about advanced stuff?

A choke point is the enemy force has to go through point X to get to point Y.


No. A battlefield can have more than one chokepoint. Say we have a circular BG with a mountain range in the middle blocking all access to either side. There are two passes in this mountain range that allow passage back and forth. Both of these passes are chokepoints b/c they are very narrow and the terrain prevents using numbers to gain a tactical advantage. Since there are two of these passes, neither one is required for army A or B to get from side X to side Y, so by your reasoning they are not chokepoints, when in reality, they are.

You can also stop with the personal attacks. Im better than that and i would rather a debate be held over the real issues, not with you name calling at every turn. Let your argument do the talking for you, not petty insults.
Edited by Paetheas on 5/1/2012 9:50 AM PDT
Burp!

mmmm cheeseburgers!

So basically AV pee vee pee boils down to two scenerios...

1) Horde choke at galv either secretly like rath (shhh be werry werry quiet, we huntin alliance!) or blatantly (like Scorched) and storm all the way up the map to eventually gy farm at sp.

or

2) the alliance fall alllll the way back to SP bridge...make their stand and it becomes a long drawn out yawn fest of two masses lobbing spells at eachother on either side of the bridge. somebody make a video i would LOVE to watch that for 45 minutes.

basically?

the southern part of the map is useless in both scenerios...and the pee vee pee is a joke.

sweet!


Not sure why you are so caught up on the whole Galv thing. Taking an enemy by surprise is a cornerstone of all strategy, whether it be in a game or real life. Do you honestly expect them just sit in the front door and wait for the Alliance to show up?

As far as the rest of your comments, I tend to agree (can't believe I just wrote that) with the caveat that it's true in the case of a pre-made vs a pug. I'll have see a couple pre-mades vs pre-mades to see what Alliance can do from their side when they aren't trying to rush to Drek.
90 Undead Rogue
3300
I don't know why you guys are fighting. I see one counter to this strat that would probably work fine, but instead of trying the alliance are getting farmed.
05/01/2012 12:20 PMPosted by Clault
I don't know why you guys are fighting. I see one counter to this strat that would probably work fine, but instead of trying the alliance are getting farmed.


And that counter would be? I'd love to hear it. :)

Here's what I see.

1. Alliance can send two groups (10 players) to Galv. This is not to kill Galv but to delay the Horde.

2. The rest of the groups stay at SHGY and prevent the cap.

3. We then set up a front between SHB and IWB with the intention of halting the Horde advance. Once the front is established, we have one player cap a mine.

4. We concede Balinda because defending her would spread our forces too thin. Meanwhile, we have our stealthies simultaneously hit IBGY and FWGY.

5. Our rezzers then spawn at FWGY and establish a choke at the wall. The majority of the other players then move to reinforce the choke.

6. Once the choke is decisively established. We send out teams to back cap objectives and leave at least two people to defend each objective.

7. We fight a battle of attrition at the wall. We make no further attempt to move ahead. We do not attempt to take out Drek.

Thoughts? Comments?
Edited by Helayne on 5/1/2012 2:05 PM PDT
25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
2) the alliance fall alllll the way back to SP bridge...make their stand and it becomes a long drawn out yawn fest of two masses lobbing spells at eachother on either side of the bridge. somebody make a video i would LOVE to watch that for 45 minutes.


Alliance can move the front to the Field of Strife if they defend Balinda like Horde defend Galv.
90 Orc Hunter
9465
05/01/2012 02:03 PMPosted by Helayne
I don't know why you guys are fighting. I see one counter to this strat that would probably work fine, but instead of trying the alliance are getting farmed.


And that counter would be? I'd love to hear it. :)

Here's what I see.

1. Alliance can send two groups (10 players) to Galv. This is not to kill Galv but to delay the Horde.

2. The rest of the groups stay at SHGY and prevent the cap.

3. We then set up a front between SHB and IWB with the intention of halting the Horde advance. Once the front is established, we have one player cap a mine.

4. We concede Balinda because defending her would spread our forces too thin. Meanwhile, we have our stealthies simultaneously hit IBGY and FWGY.

5. Our rezzers then spawn at FWGY and establish a choke at the wall. The majority of the other players then move to reinforce the choke.

6. Once the choke is decisively established. We send out teams to back cap objectives and leave at least two people to defend each objective.

7. We fight a battle of attrition at the wall. We make no further attempt to move ahead. We do not attempt to take out Drek.

Thoughts? Comments?
\

Starts out ok but relies to heavily on holding a distant Gy.

Best idea is to hold shgy as you pointed out at the start, then get a solid team to hold IBGY while killing the horde piecemeal (either by wipe at bal vs pugs or FoS grind agasint rathstrat). The point between IBGY and TP is actually quite a nice choke.

The trick here is TO NOT push TP until IBGY caps.

Its the basic cap forward choke and GY, establish lead then push that rathstrat employs, just in reverse.
28 Draenei Shaman
430
04/20/2012 09:56 AMPosted by Longeyes
TWINKS DO NOT QUE WITH LEVELERS ANYMORE.


Not true fyi. A 70 or an 80 twink can queue into leveling bgs by having the character on an account without the next expansions on them. And there is a well known exploit to do get into leveling bgs that I will not say.
Edited by Illanie on 5/1/2012 3:05 PM PDT
5 Tauren Priest
0
05/01/2012 03:04 PMPosted by Illanie
TWINKS DO NOT QUE WITH LEVELERS ANYMORE.


Not true fyi. A 70 or an 80 twink can queue into leveling bgs by having the character on an account without the next expansions on them. And there is a well known exploit to do get into leveling bgs that I will not say.


Expansion capped characters are automatically put in XP-off fyi.

Has been like that since a few patches ago.
85 Tauren Shaman
8945
05/01/2012 09:47 AMPosted by Paetheas
You dont even understand the word chokepoint. A wide open field that can be approached by the enemy from 360 degrees does not consitute a "chokepoint". There are these things in warfare called terrain advantage, flanking, attacking from multiple angles, using superior numbers to envelope the enemy, chokepoints, etc. These things should be common military tactics knowledge yet you don't even agree with them so how are we to have a rational discussion with you about advanced stuff


LOL LOL LOL LOL!!!! Are you sure you are a military veteran? You must be a comm guy or paper pusher. If you REALLY want a link I will GLADLY show you pics of my nams for writing SoPs for my unit :)

Ready... FoS you can't be 360 degree ambushed. Can't happen unless you really mess up. Have you heard of man made choke? You are acting like you are an infantry guy so I would hope so. Unless they don't teach that in the army I know they do in the marines. FoS can be a "man made" choke. If you really want to talk military tactics and try and down play me PLEASE come in wow public vent ANY TIME. I will take us up to a room and we can talk and we will see who knows more :)

Also please show me where I said a battlefield can only have 1 choke point? I will wait for that quote. Also get over the 300 idea!!! Chokes do not need to be narrow!!!!! A choke can be 30 miles wide and be man made! You stating what you did I can tell you where not any type of grunt.

Also do not know why you always have to try personal attacks. If you want me to bash you like you try I will bro. Except I have proof and will back my crap up. I'm not going to sit here and lie.

05/01/2012 08:23 AMPosted by Esclamayshun
I don't deny the advantages of SHGY, or the bridge. I never have. But I do not agree that they are as strategically sound as Iceblood choke point. I just can't honestly see it. When I ran scorched earth, the alliance never stood a chance. And I did it in pugs. That cluster of the map is far too defensible compared to the alliance counterparts. You make good points about how you would use SHGY as a choke, but I still just don't see it being as good as Iceblood


This was a lot better and more mature and I thank you. Most of your comments are just "No you are wrong you dont know what you are talking about blah blah". Maybe it isn't as good as Ice Blood but we will never know till someone tries it actually. Theory crafting can only go so far.
05/01/2012 03:04 PMPosted by Vaelkyri


And that counter would be? I'd love to hear it. :)

Here's what I see.

1. Alliance can send two groups (10 players) to Galv. This is not to kill Galv but to delay the Horde.

2. The rest of the groups stay at SHGY and prevent the cap.

3. We then set up a front between SHB and IWB with the intention of halting the Horde advance. Once the front is established, we have one player cap a mine.

4. We concede Balinda because defending her would spread our forces too thin. Meanwhile, we have our stealthies simultaneously hit IBGY and FWGY.

5. Our rezzers then spawn at FWGY and establish a choke at the wall. The majority of the other players then move to reinforce the choke.

6. Once the choke is decisively established. We send out teams to back cap objectives and leave at least two people to defend each objective.

7. We fight a battle of attrition at the wall. We make no further attempt to move ahead. We do not attempt to take out Drek.

Thoughts? Comments?
\

Starts out ok but relies to heavily on holding a distant Gy.

Best idea is to hold shgy as you pointed out at the start, then get a solid team to hold IBGY while killing the horde piecemeal (either by wipe at bal vs pugs or FoS grind agasint rathstrat). The point between IBGY and TP is actually quite a nice choke.

The trick here is TO NOT push TP until IBGY caps.

Its the basic cap forward choke and GY, establish lead then push that rathstrat employs, just in reverse.


Starts out ok but relies to heavily on holding a distant Gy.

Best idea is to hold shgy as you pointed out at the start, then get a solid team to hold IBGY while killing the horde piecemeal (either by wipe at bal vs pugs or FoS grind agasint rathstrat). The point between IBGY and TP is actually quite a nice choke.

The trick here is TO NOT push TP until IBGY caps.

Its the basic cap forward choke and GY, establish lead then push that rathstrat employs, just in reverse.


Interesting. My concern is because the Horde are all at the SHGY front, how do I get a team to IBGY?

Attempting to wipe them at Balinda seems to be a gamble. If Alliance fails, we risk losing the graveyard, our captain, and at least one bunker.

That's why I was thinking of the far graveyard strike. It forces the Horde to pull players off the line to react.
5 Tauren Priest
0
If Horde blows their 400 reinforcement advantage whilst holding all their towers, capped 2 bunkers, the opposing captain and both mines, whilst holding the Alliance to the bridge then their team pretty much deserves to lose. I'm sure there has been a few games like that (which are pretty much the exception, not the norm), but the vast majority of those games where Horde pins Alliance to the bridge ends in a Horde reinforcement win almost every time.

Taking the 250 reinforcements off the 2 bunkers + captain, let's not forget the Horde are farming the Alliance from the IWB choke all the way to SPGY and eventually the Bridge (that's another 150+ kills/reinforcements = 400 reinforcement advantage) Horde also has both mines at this point, and they would lose fewer reinforcements (let's say 30-40 deaths).

If Horde do lose more reinforcements than normal farming the Alliance to SPGY and the bridge , it's a sign that your team is likely undergeared, mostly in PVE gear, half the team are bots, or a combination of the first 3.

Like someone else had already said earlier in this thread, holding the entire Alliance team to the bridge only requires a smidgen of brain usage (pretty much a don't stand in the bad spot, or in this case, don't stand at the edge in case of the enemy using knockback). Rogues at this point will be trying to cap the bunkers or killing the archers (or if they're lucky if there's no Alliance in the bunkers, despawn the archers via LOS) It would take either a team of no-brainers, bots or undergeared to blow their huge reinforcement lead.
Edited by Berewakk on 5/1/2012 5:02 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Hunter
13740
05/01/2012 04:15 PMPosted by Chéwnok
LOL LOL LOL LOL!!!! Are you sure you are a military veteran? You must be a comm guy or paper pusher.


You must be a dental medic that thinks he is a four star general just judging from your responses in this post alone.

05/01/2012 04:15 PMPosted by Chéwnok
Also please show me where I said a battlefield can only have 1 choke point? I will wait for that quote


A choke point is the enemy force has to go through point X to get to point Y.


Took me 5 secs, your dental instructors must be pretty upset you didnt grasp battlefield mechanics in boot camp.
85 Tauren Shaman
8945
05/01/2012 05:45 PMPosted by Paetheas
You must be a dental medic that thinks he is a four star general just judging from your responses in this post alone.


Wish I did then then I would have a trade skill to get a job.

A choke point is the enemy force has to go through point X to get to point Y.

Took me 5 secs, your dental instructors must be pretty upset you didnt grasp battlefield mechanics in boot camp.


That does not say there is only ONE choke in a battlefield.

Example for you. Point X is SPGY entrance to bridge. Point Y is The other side of the bridge. Choke point = Bridge. That shows one point of the battlefield. You are stretching it to make your point like you always do in all these post trying to put down horde.

Interesting. My concern is because the Horde are all at the SHGY front, how do I get a team to IBGY?

Attempting to wipe them at Balinda seems to be a gamble. If Alliance fails, we risk losing the graveyard, our captain, and at least one bunker.

That's why I was thinking of the far graveyard strike. It forces the Horde to pull players off the line to react.


You are putting to much thought into it. If you want to reverse the Rath strat 5 people go to IBGY. They ride straight there don't stop for anything. They cap it. 35 other people hide around bal or even in bal if you want. The reason we hide behind galv is because it allows us to come in from behind which allows no way out. If you are inside it will still work if you flood one side and loop around. Maybe a few people will get out. Anyways you AOE everyone to death.

Yes prob SHB and SHGY will be flipped. So send 25 people down south now to IBGY to defend it and hold choke. 10 people go retake SHB because GY can be recapped. After you take it start pushing north and retake everything else. Then as you kill people up north send people south. slowly start taking bunkers and galv while you push forward. This would only work against a pug. Against a rath strat it would be a stand still and you would have to do a different strat.

If you want a good counter to rath strat 10 people go SHGY wipe and 30 go stright to IBGY. Team that takes the GY is more than likely have the better advantage. Don't take FWGY and farm them there until they retreat into base. So might be good to try and ninja FWRH so can't release and run to another GY to res. The other 10 2-3 can cap it SFGY on the way down.

Or just do a full 40 man turtle on the bridge. Traps on the bridge constant AoE to break stealths. None of these can be done in a pug. GL getting 40 people to listen. People will do what they want unless they are the miniority. Then they more than likely will play along.
90 Orc Hunter
9465

Interesting. My concern is because the Horde are all at the SHGY front, how do I get a team to IBGY?

Attempting to wipe them at Balinda seems to be a gamble. If Alliance fails, we risk losing the graveyard, our captain, and at least one bunker.

That's why I was thinking of the far graveyard strike. It forces the Horde to pull players off the line to react.


By doin what we do, ignore galv and cap the IBGY in force (5/10ppl) at the start and wipe the zerg at bal, forcing them to spawn back at FWGY- behind the locked choke at IBGY/TP gap. Trust me, against pugs the zerg to bal mentality is just as strong on horde side as the zerg to galv is on ally side. And if you can hold that GY long enough for the def force to get there from clean up at bal its your game to win. Galv can die at any time in the game, doesnt have to be at the start.

Against rathstrat there is no 'clear counter'. Holding shgy stops the choke from being locked and essentially resets the fight.- then it just comes down to a good ol fashioned slug fest and jockey for postion across the FoS.
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