Guide to Rath Strat AV's (Update Coming Soon)

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100 Undead Mage
7125
This should be called "Rath's Scorched Earth premades", as its not a original strat, its merely adapting the scorched earth strat applied by Horde in some battle groups back in BC.

Stormstrike and Bloodlust Horde PUGs were the pioneers of this strat, they were also the reason why the horde cave got moved back after alliance stopped queuing and started flooding the other BGs with premades for their honor.


This was already covered earlier in this thread. Some people just enjoy beating dead horses.
25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
I don't see how this warranted a thread of its own. If this strat was employed against an Alliance premade it wouldn't meet anywhere near the level of success it does against Alliance PuG's. What causes Horde wins isn't the strategy itself, which is very easily countered, it's the fact that it's a premade.

In other words, premades beat PuG's. This is not new. And with the prevalence of the Horde trying to force a turtle I've seen even Alliance PuGs begin adapting to the strategy by playing defensively and forcing the Horde to turtle on the Alliance's terms.

There's no such thing as an infalliable strategy for any battleground. Battlegrounds are won by gear, individual skill, and the ability to adapt.
Edited by Vyrin on 4/19/2012 4:45 AM PDT
14 Tauren Druid
0
740 victories since Fourth Quarter of 2008. By your own admission, you average just under 17 wins per month. Why are you here boasting when you win one AV every 2 days?
100 Undead Mage
7125
04/19/2012 05:49 AMPosted by Meerest
740 victories since Fourth Quarter of 2008. By your own admission, you average just under 17 wins per month. Why are you here boasting when you win one AV every 2 days?


I had actually quit the game for over a year but was given a year of World of Warcraft and Cataclysm by users on my realm that wanted to see me return.

And I have not been overly active with these premades for the last month or two as real life issues have required my attention, such as my company, relationship, and family. These are things that are more important to me than you, the trolls that continue to berate me unabatedly on these forums, or this game.

I don't see how this warranted a thread of its own. If this strat was employed against an Alliance premade it wouldn't meet anywhere near the level of success it does against Alliance PuG's. What causes Horde wins isn't the strategy itself, which is very easily countered, it's the fact that it's a premade.

In other words, premades beat PuG's. This is not new. And with the prevalence of the Horde trying to force a turtle I've seen even Alliance PuGs begin adapting to the strategy by playing defensively and forcing the Horde to turtle on the Alliance's terms.

There's no such thing as an infalliable strategy for any battleground. Battlegrounds are won by gear, individual skill, and the ability to adapt.


Premades get beat, and more often than you would believe. Being a premade is advantageous sure, but victory is never guaranteed. I have seen many premades get beat, and often because they can carry that expectation. When that expectation is challenged, they can falter and fail.

As mentioned above, this thread was made to help ease those who may have been uncomfortable with joining the community that is growing not only with the Rath Strat Premades, but this information can be applied to virtually any premade group. It was made to be helpful to those interested in joining.
Edited by Rathamus on 4/19/2012 7:37 AM PDT
100 Undead Mage
7125
04/19/2012 07:36 AMPosted by Eilane
I still don't see the logic in calling this 'PvP' when all you do is lock pugs to a GY and farm them. That's like calling shooting fish in a barrel fishing.


Per Wikipedia: "Player versus player, or PvP, is a type of multiplayer interactive conflict within a game between two or more live participants.[1] This is in contrast to games where players compete against computer controlled opponents, which is correspondingly referred to as player versus environment (PvE). The terms are most often used in games where both activities exist,[2] particularly MMORPGs, MUDs, and other role-playing video games.

PvP can be broadly used to describe any game, or aspect of a game, where players compete against each other. In computer role-playing games, PvP is sometimes called player killing or PKing."

It cannot be debated that this is not PvP. We aren't attacking AI opponents. Many people who have come to Alterac Valley with the expectation of a mostly PvE experience through a zerg rush in which little or no interaction with other players actually occur.
What we are doing is forcing that interaction, making it unavoidable. How well the other side fights, gear (which we carry no requirement for), organization, coordination, and strategy decide how effective the PvP combat is.

There is no code of conduct for PvP combat in World of Warcraft. Should you come across some rules regarding how we should "engage and fight" the opposition, I would hear your argument.
85 Human Death Knight
12435
I remember playing horde in BC and getting absolutely locked down game after game at IBGY by the alliance. If I'm guessing correctly, you turtle the horde up at Galv (FOR THE SHORTS) and just keep them out of the south end of AV. Either this strat trickled down to pugs or nearly every AV I've been in since Cata has been "Rath Strat" turtle. Early Cata I remember ally pugs were having a tough time with this. Lately, the AVs I've been doing, we might meet or force a horde turtle and we've just been stomping on the turtle leading to a blue map and a win with 150 ish HKs.

I guess you aren't finished posting what your strat is because I don't see anything other than join vent posted so far. You call it Rath Strat. We have QQ Premades. There's a vent for that as well, no preform enabler required. They direct the eight groups of 5 players to go here or there, take and hold towers by force of numbers, and send groups to backcap and harass horde at Van. I've played a few games with them, but they are slow to actually get into a game even though the games only last 10 minutes max. I can't recall ever having lost a QQ Premade AV, but outside of having 39 players doing exactly what the leader tells them over vent, I haven't seen them reach a lot of sucess in the other bgs.
Rathamus, given the advantages a pre-made group has over a PuG group, it seems to me the most effective counter to Rath Strat/RealID is another pre-made group. With that said, what do you feel would be the minimum amount of players required to work in (a) pre-made group(s) to be significant opposition to your group?
100 Undead Mage
7125
04/19/2012 08:19 AMPosted by Helayne
Rathamus, given the advantages a pre-made group has over a PuG group, it seems to me the most effective counter to Rath Strat/RealID is another pre-made group. With that said, what do you feel would be the minimum amount of players required to work in (a) pre-made group(s) to be significant opposition to your group?


Our Premade groups "usually" don't start until we have at minimum 23 players. It is what I have suggested to the others. This used to be 15 but due to gear scaling and the lack of buffs to the NPC's to counteract this, I had to adjust this. (Galv dies, Drek can be nuked)

So it is hard to say how many exactly you would be opposed against. We accept queues when 28-30 are shown to theoretically get into the same game. (The system isn't perfect and it is rare that everyone in the premade actually gets in)

The real key is to play to the PUG'ers. What do puggers do? They mindlessly zerg to the end in the race they come to expect AV to be.

I would say 25 alliance in a premade, PLANNING for the puggers to zerg south as usual, and a coordinated strike at the important mechanics of the strat by those in the premade could do damage and tip the odds.

We generally flex to meet any deviation from the mindless zerging we expect the alliance to do.
The puggers in our game, we expect them to rush north. We count them as our offensive split. Those in the premade, we seek defense.

Deception would be surprisingly easy to pull off with some planning on a premades behalf.

When we roll back for a tower that has been capped, we try to get a sense of how many Alliance are there. Early game, we can respond swiftly to send an adequate number of matching players to "purge" the tower (we don't like losing towers because it grants honor and diminishes our resources to which we rely heavily on to win). However, late game this becomes more difficult because of the time required to send back forces (greater distances).

This can be used to the advantage of an Alliance premade. Once you cap a tower, nearly immediately we send at least 1-2 guys back for it. If two towers are capped in too close of a span of time, we send 2-4 back because we know there could be more than 1 defender.

If you can get a group to a tower (3+), don't immediately reveal the entire group. When we realize there are more than the expected 1 and the 1-2 guys we send back are not enough, we send more.

Assault with 1, then when the 1-2 show up, do what we do to the Alliance @ Galv. Once the defenders engage you, have the extras show up behind them (have them hidden nearby out of sight or stealthed) and only match the force that was brought up.

You essentially only need to defend against 2 waves of us doing this before there just isn't enough time for us to ride back with a measured response. By the time the 3rd wave arrives (and assuming you have a healer), you will be out numbered but the timer will be so dangerously close to capping that all you have to do is defend at that point, live or die.

This tactic will allow you to chip at our towers and dwindle the resources that way.

Another often overlooked aspect from a Rath Strat AV (depending on the leader and their value of the nodes), mines are a great thing to keep control of and can over the course of a game, provide an advantage often missed. Each of the mines grant 1 resource every 45 seconds. 2 mines consistently held through an average game of Rath Strat would yield about 100 reinforcements. This could easily counteract the loss of a bunker.

In my personal games I lead, I place high importance on these mines and I am persistent in sending back 1-2 guys to take them depending on how difficult the Alliance player that's there is to deal with. In the events I cannot find volunteers (I rarely tell anyone what to do, I ask for heroes to step up), I go personally.The most important thing to know against a Rath Strat AV is that when you take a tower (because the towers should be your priority if you want to beat it), if the first 1-2 guys that show up to retake the tower fail, it is communicated to the raid what kind of opposition was seen (intelligence) and a more appropriately measured response is sent.

Use that to your advantage. Deception (and stealth classes) can do irreparable damage and tie up valuable resources (horde players going back to hunt them) that could be used elsewhere.
Edited by Rathamus on 4/19/2012 9:05 AM PDT
100 Undead Mage
7125
I remember playing horde in BC and getting absolutely locked down game after game at IBGY by the alliance. If I'm guessing correctly, you turtle the horde up at Galv (FOR THE SHORTS) and just keep them out of the south end of AV. Either this strat trickled down to pugs or nearly every AV I've been in since Cata has been "Rath Strat" turtle. Early Cata I remember ally pugs were having a tough time with this. Lately, the AVs I've been doing, we might meet or force a horde turtle and we've just been stomping on the turtle leading to a blue map and a win with 150 ish HKs.

I guess you aren't finished posting what your strat is because I don't see anything other than join vent posted so far. You call it Rath Strat. We have QQ Premades. There's a vent for that as well, no preform enabler required. They direct the eight groups of 5 players to go here or there, take and hold towers by force of numbers, and send groups to backcap and harass horde at Van. I've played a few games with them, but they are slow to actually get into a game even though the games only last 10 minutes max. I can't recall ever having lost a QQ Premade AV, but outside of having 39 players doing exactly what the leader tells them over vent, I haven't seen them reach a lot of sucess in the other bgs.


Yes, the guide is still under construction (as indicated in the title) and is a work in progress. I work on it in bits when my mind is not occupied with matters outside this game.

We have destroyed the QueueQ.net premades on a few occasions, (twice where I was present) and we have become large enough of a threat to them that they have announced they are working on strategies to counteract the Rath Strat Premades behind closed doors (which I fully support and applaud).

When things are slow or there are not enough players to start up a Rath Strat AV, I also do Eye of the Storm and Arathi Basin, to which I have matched success in as well with the strategies I deploy there. Admittedly, the popularity and demand of the Rath Strat AV's have been great enough where I have not needed to do them recently since RealID has allowed us to grow outside our Battlegroup/Realm.
Edited by Rathamus on 4/19/2012 9:15 AM PDT
I'm well aware as to the definition of the acronym, but no self respecting player considers a pre-made farming a pug in a GY for an hour 'PvP'. Though, talking to someone as dense as a brick wall is fairly pointless


Then I don't call twinking PvP at all. What is the point of making an OP class and decking him out in the best gear so you can farm people who are leveling in !@#$ty gear. Then also get 100+ KB's a game. I would say twinking is exploiting over a premade.
57 Worgen Rogue
590
Rath gives a rare insight to some of his own individual tactics for situations that crop up. Happy to see that counters are being discussed, but surprised not to see graveyards mentioned. Graveyards are the heart and Soul(arpower) of AV, when AV is played as a longer, drawn out match. The core of Rath strat is a Galv wipe and simultaneous assault of SHGY. This is the 1-2 punch at the beginning of the battleground that accomplishes three things for the horde.

1. Defeats the largest grouping of alliance players quickly and systematically with the element of surprise rather than a two front, trench/attrition fight.

2. Forces said dead to spawn at the far north Stormpike graveyard, far enough away from the time sensitive/small assault on SHGY and middle bunkers. This time allows horde defense to become horde offense. The time in between the Galv wipe and SHGY capping is the horde's most vulnerable time in scorched earth, and if alliance successfully retake SHGY, a full-blown, evenly matched turtle ensues.

3. Breaks the will of alliance by scattering them into small pockets of offense who have spread out to assault towers. Those initial rushers expect the Galv group to be reinforcing them, and when they are unable to, they are hopelessly outnumbered by the Horde defense.

An IBGY focused strat from alliance at the start of the match, with 20-25 alliance players defending IBGY until it caps, would put a huge dent in the Rath strat. Pug alliance always have tremendous difficulties coordinating though, from the issue of all chiefs/no indians, or all indians/chief with no feathers. Convincing enough to assault a Graveyard to be able to defend against the onslaught that would ensue is an uphill battle, and losing that fight with too few is the same tictactoe of losing at Galv.

Another option, potentially more successful although less enjoyable, would be simply to zerg south with 40 alliance. Unless a very large group of horde recalled back simultaneously, 40 alliance on noob hill SHOULD be able to surivie until East and West Tower burned. We're unfortunately back to PVE and PVTimer strats, but my goal is for Rath Strat to lose, and I don't have the luxury of choosing exactly how that's accomplished with a pug group.

I saw another post about a "classic AV" option, which I would REALLY LOVE. I started playing in late WotLK, so I have never experienced those, and I think there's enough of a niche in the game that would enjoy this feature. It would just be another battleground option on the specific battleground list, with the old battleground that did not have reinforcement numbers.

I still maintain that removing the element of surprise will make a world of difference against Rath's group. Check your bg player list while in the tunnel instead of spamming your AOE spells and popping heroism. If you see multiple players from Nathrezim, it's likely you'll be faced with that pug. Enough alliance have experienced the end result of being graveyard farmed that they might, just might, listen. After that Alliance, it's up to your chief to muster up and coordinate, and hopefully that person is me:-)

Editted: a line break that didn't make it in. My walls of text can sometimes crit people for their entire hp.
Edited by Soularpower on 4/19/2012 10:21 AM PDT
95 Human Warrior
15405
04/12/2012 03:32 PMPosted by Rathamus
Rathamus created this strategy after careful analysis of the battleground terrain features, tower and bunker placement, graveyard locations, residing NPC's, and starting cave points was made and a strategy was born that is still followed today.


I hate to burst the bubble, but anyone on the Stormstrike BG can tell you this strat was developed on Mal'Ganis. If you were able to go way back, to the great "Boycott AV" threads that used to fill the Stormstrike forums. It didn't even require a premade, it happened EVERY SINGLE AV. Remember, the forums back then had dedicated forum boards for each battle group. There would 3-5 posts DAILY asking for the strat. It was so bad that Alliance stoped going to AV because it would yielded ZERO rewards for an Alliance player. At its peak, it was reported 4 hour queues for a single AV to pop up because Alliance wouldn't even go to AV. I know horde players that had multiple accounts that would log into a second account to queue for AV.

You may be the first one to write a formal guide on this, but unless your character is from US-Malganis than you sir are not the "creator"
57 Worgen Rogue
590
04/19/2012 08:19 AMPosted by Helayne
With that said, what do you feel would be the minimum amount of players required to work in (a) pre-made group(s) to be significant opposition to your group?


As Rath said, just pure numbers, 20+ would be required. But as essential would be to have a hierarchy of who makes callouts. Rath has captains who handle essential parts of his strategy - recaps on middle towers, inital choke point establishment, stealth group to peel off alliance into DB. He also has 6-8 excellent healers on his side, at least one of whom probably wears PVE gear for longevity for the large groups at their choke points. They mark their healers with raid markers so they know who to run to for help. And they PROTECT the healers, which is why they'll probably never lose.
90 Undead Priest
5870


It's called scorched earth and the strat was made years before you.

Props on helping promote pvp in such a terrible BG, though.


Indeed. After briefly looking at the strat, I thought, "So this is essentially Scorched Earth...". For a while, it seemed like this was the default horde strat, and we would dominate every game. Got so bad numerous alliance players stopped queuing for AV, making our queue time nearly unbearable.

It's weird though, seeing how this was a proven strat, how did we get back to the point where horde just want to 'rush' each game, despite losing game after game? It seems common sense would take over and people would eventually learn that out zerging alliance rarely works.

Anyway, props to Rath for bringing this back, and for going through the trouble of organizing and formalizing it in a meaningful way.

Rath, I just came back to the game less than 2 weeks ago, but I'll be sure to hit you guys up!

Cheers
85 Undead Rogue
14700
04/19/2012 10:38 AMPosted by Soularpower
And they PROTECT the healers, which is why they'll probably never lose.


This is such a major aspect that so few alliance seem to grasp. So many times their healers are left swingin in the wind because some dps doesn't want to die.

Plus, you save a healer enough times, they start lookin' out for ya. :) *waves at Sini*
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