Guide to Rath Strat AV's (Update Coming Soon)

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85 Goblin Priest
970
04/19/2012 02:36 PMPosted by Metrix
It's weird though, seeing how this was a proven strat, how did we get back to the point where horde just want to 'rush' each game, despite losing game after game? It seems common sense would take over and people would eventually learn that out zerging alliance rarely works.


From personal experience over all of my characters (Both horde, alliance, and twilight cultists :p) I find that PuG's have a 50/50 success rate for both factions.

I daresay the 100% win is, in the minds of the HpH crowd, less attractive than the possible 50/50 quick win.
100 Undead Mage
5825
04/19/2012 10:20 AMPosted by Soularpower
Rath gives a rare insight to some of his own individual tactics for situations that crop up. Happy to see that counters are being discussed, but surprised not to see graveyards mentioned. Graveyards are the heart and Soul(arpower) of AV, when AV is played as a longer, drawn out match. The core of Rath strat is a Galv wipe and simultaneous assault of SHGY. This is the 1-2 punch at the beginning of the battleground that accomplishes three things for the horde.


I can't give you the farm. =) However, if this thread continues to be CONSTRUCTIVE and POSITIVE in feedback and nature and the trolling cease, I will gladly discuss in full, how I would beat this.
Edited by Rathamus on 4/19/2012 2:45 PM PDT
85 Goblin Priest
970
My personal strat for Rath, though I'd never have the chance to enact it with my unstable internet (sad face) goes as follows.

A 30 - 5 - 5 split for groups, taking the most geared 4dps + healer to SHGY, 2 stealthies, a prot warrior, healer and misc to Snowfall and the main 30 go to take IBGY.

Wipe the group at SHGY (hopefully), then those players join IBGY where there should be the main force of the Horde going since Galv was skipped and IBGY was hit. I expect some sort of team to have stolen away into SHB and that is where the team at snowfall comes in, leave the prot and healer to defend until cap while the stealthies and misc go to recap SHB. If the IBGY choke has held out (considering the advantage FWGY has in relation to SHGY) all team go down there and funnel the choke, using it as an offensive choke. We then have Galv and IBT in our pockets to burn and kill as a safety barrier against reinforcement draining. (The choke would be in our advantage due to close respawn but theres always a chance we lose a fair amount of people to holding it.)

The Snowfall team becomes our backcap team, and the killing begins.

As Chew said, its definitely open to easily being won by an attentive leader (I'd imagine they'd notice the team at SHGY die and Snowfall being capped, and decide to zerg SHGY, forcing a backthrust of people leaving IBGY to recap).

Basically, I typed out all of this to say that I agree with Soul about the GY's being the heart of every AV match.
Edited by Anastaszia on 4/19/2012 2:55 PM PDT
85 Undead Priest
6015
04/19/2012 02:40 PMPosted by Anastaszia
It's weird though, seeing how this was a proven strat, how did we get back to the point where horde just want to 'rush' each game, despite losing game after game? It seems common sense would take over and people would eventually learn that out zerging alliance rarely works.


From personal experience over all of my characters (Both horde, alliance, and twilight cultists :p) I find that PuG's have a 50/50 success rate for both factions.

I daresay the 100% win is, in the minds of the HpH crowd, less attractive than the possible 50/50 quick win.


@Ana: I agree with your last sentence there, though I believe the Horde's chances when specifically zerging AV are significantly worse than 50/50.

I've had a personal pug/random AV experience noticeably different from your 50/50. For most of 2012, I've seen far below that for the Horde side. I would not have gone looking through forums and such to discover the Rath Strat premade group, or anything like it, if this weren't happening. I would even have been happy to win 40% of the time in AV, but honestly the past 4-5 months have been far worse than that. It's no longer possible to determine this from checking all of my 85s' records since they've all been involved in Rath Strat. But before participating in these premades, my first four 85s had records that were above 50/50 in every single BG except for IoC and AV. Meanwhile in IoC and AV they all were winning less than 20%! Hate to admit it but it was that bad! And continues to be, in most cases, on the days that I queue for random BGs. I keep doing great in the small BGs and simply awful in the two 40-mans.

It does make the occasional IoC and AV pug wins that much sweeter when they do occur. But it's been bad enough for long enough that noticeable numbers of more skilled and experience Horde players now don't queue for randoms in order to avoid IoC and AV, having lost their patience with attempting to talk the masses on their own side out of persistently failing strategies.

With a pure zerg vs. a pure zerg on both sides, at least one Frostwolf Tower is usually occupied 40 to 60 seconds earlier than the first Dun Baldar Tower, and often both FW towers are on track to cap a full minute before both of the Dun Baldars. I'm not even sure if I have ever seen the first Dun Baldar cap before the first Frostwolf cap in any AV that was zerg to zerg. The only counterexamples I can remember is when things went completely differently and turned into Field of Strife or choke vs. choke games or turtles.

@Metrix: it seems there are just enough Horde players who win when zerging AV just often enough to keep their faith placed firmly in that technique. They remain convinced that a failing zerg is just due to unskilled players in the group rather than a weak and disadvantaged strategy.
57 Worgen Rogue
590
04/19/2012 02:45 PMPosted by Rathamus
I can't give you the farm. =) However, if this thread continues to be CONSTRUCTIVE and POSITIVE in feedback and nature and the trolling cease, I will gladly discuss in full, how I would beat this.


I hope you don't consider my post a troll. I'm sure if you saw a counter strat happening, there would be reactions against it and the "rath strat" would change. I think your fellow horde posters have just assumed that boiled down, you would do "scorched earth" regardless of what alliance does. "Rath strat" seems to be as much about people giving and taking instruction and coordinating their movements on the largest battleground map.

IBGY strat is messy as heck, one of those AVs where it could potentially take over an hour. Not that that's a bad thing. My favorite experiences in wow are downing raids bosses before nerfs and hour+ long AVs where the tide of the battle changes in my favor.

The alliance's only chance against a premade AV is to stay in large groups, 10+ at minimum and really more like 20+. We must keep our graveyards early on and we must take one of the horde's graveyards. Then it comes down to how well alliance takes out healers and how quickly we can burn towers.
100 Undead Mage
5825
I hope you don't consider my post a troll. I'm sure if you saw a counter strat happening, there would be reactions against it and the "rath strat" would change. I think your fellow horde posters have just assumed that boiled down, you would do "scorched earth" regardless of what alliance does. "Rath strat" seems to be as much about people giving and taking instruction and coordinating their movements on the largest battleground map.

IBGY strat is messy as heck, one of those AVs where it could potentially take over an hour. Not that that's a bad thing. My favorite experiences in wow are downing raids bosses before nerfs and hour+ long AVs where the tide of the battle changes in my favor.

The alliance's only chance against a premade AV is to stay in large groups, 10+ at minimum and really more like 20+. We must keep our graveyards early on and we must take one of the horde's graveyards. Then it comes down to how well alliance takes out healers and how quickly we can burn towers.


Not at all. I have enjoyed your posts and agree with everything you have mentioned here. Your posts have been a refreshing change from the volatile posts that are not as enjoyable for the majority who peruse this thread.
Edited by Rathamus on 4/20/2012 7:15 AM PDT
85 Troll Hunter
10005
04/19/2012 09:44 AMPosted by Chéwnok
I'm well aware as to the definition of the acronym, but no self respecting player considers a pre-made farming a pug in a GY for an hour 'PvP'. Though, talking to someone as dense as a brick wall is fairly pointless


Then I don't call twinking PvP at all. What is the point of making an OP class and decking him out in the best gear so you can farm people who are leveling in !@#$ty gear. Then also get 100+ KB's a game. I would say twinking is exploiting over a premade.


I came here because i wanted to start PvPing on this toon, and where better to start than an honor grind. But i happened to come across something this, and i'm here to yell at you until your ears bleed that TWINKS DO NOT QUE WITH LEVELERS ANYMORE.

Anyway, looking forward to joining some of these later on. I hear it's a blast.
90 Night Elf Hunter
14040
04/19/2012 04:57 PMPosted by Crimpshrine
@Ana: I agree with your last sentence there, though I believe the Horde's chances when specifically zerging AV are significantly worse than 50/50.


Stop lying. You are making yourself look stupid.

The majority of my AV's, horde cap SH bunker at least 15-20 secs before we attack IB tower and Balinda normally dies 10 secs before we kill Galv.

The map is completely balanced when both sides pve rush to the towers and general. The distance from the starting caves is the same(slightly in favor of horde b/c they reach SH bunker before we can reach IB tower), the horde general and commander are stronger and have more adds than their alliance counterparts, all tower and GY timers are the exact same for both sides.

This is easily the most horde favored BG in THE ENTIRE GAME. Every aspect of the BG favors horde. There is a reason why Rath and his premades play this BG only, simply picking AV gives the horde a big advantage. Once you add in the 'scorched earth strat', 40 man premade vs 32 man PuG, ventrilo, etc, no horde team should ever lose.

All the talk about 'forming a counter strat' is basically just another form of republican FoX news rhetoric to distract alliance from the fact that the game developer's themselves created the BG as one of the most unbalanced fighting scenario's in the game. It would be like a baseball team moving the bases back 30 feet when the opposing team is up to bat and telling them 'you need to figure out how to work around this disadvantage we dont have'.

www.hookedonphonics.com


I think you need wwww.hookedonmonkeyphonics.com

It did wonders for Cartman.
Edited by Paetheas on 4/20/2012 10:37 AM PDT
85 Undead Priest
6015
@Ana: I agree with your last sentence there, though I believe the Horde's chances when specifically zerging AV are significantly worse than 50/50.


Stop lying. You are making yourself look stupid.

The majority of my AV's, horde cap SH bunker at least 15-20 secs before we attack IB tower and Balinda normally dies 10 secs before we kill Galv.

The map is completely balanced when both sides pve rush to the towers and general. The distance from the starting caves is the same(slightly in favor of horde b/c they reach SH bunker before we can reach IB tower), the horde general and commander are stronger and have more adds than their alliance counterparts, all tower and GY timers are the exact same for both sides.

This is easily the most horde favored BG in THE ENTIRE GAME. Every aspect of the BG favors horde. There is a reason why Rath and his premades play this BG only, simply picking AV gives the horde a big advantage. Once you add in the 'scorched earth strat', 40 man premade vs 32 man PuG, ventrilo, etc, no horde team should ever lose.


Your "look stupid" remark adds nothing to the discussion, and no thanks for calling me a liar. I'm calling things as I see them, and I presume you are too.

I'll grant you that AV seems to be set up in favor of the Horde IF enough organization, communication, and proper use of terrain and structures takes place. I was strictly speaking of ONLY the zerg vs. zerg case that has predominated in both Wrath and Cata as soon as gear levels were high enough to allow a zerg/blitz strategy to work at all.

What I see when I enter random/pug AVs, since about the start of 2012, is 95% of the time it's purely zerg vs zerg and the stronger zerg wins. And I'm seeing about 20% wins or less for the Horde in these runs. That's over hundreds of queues on several different toons on all different days of the week -- though I sometimes wonder if it's my time slot that is the problem somehow (I'm usually on around midnight to 4am eastern time).

So I'm seeing the Alliance win more than 4 out of 5 random AVs, and I always watch the timers and stats to try and figure out how it happened. By far the most often source of the Alliance win is that they pull Drek long before we pull Vann, anywhere from 20 seconds to over a minute difference between the two. And leading up to that, the reason they're able to pull Drek first is that they almost always get at least one, and sometimes both, of the Frostwolf Towers burned before we do the same with the Dun Baldars.

Notice I'm not talking about midfield towers and captains, so let's not argue about someone else's issue. I'm just telling you honestly what I've been seeing in these very common zerg-vs-zerg runs, and I'm telling you the Horde has serious difficulty winning in that particular situation which happens to be the most common one by far.

I don't pretend to know the reasons why. I could jump to conclusions like "my faction just sucks in large random/pug groups and for some reason the other faction is just better at that." But that sounds kind of statistically unlikely. I could blame it on the map but I'd rather not. All I know is that zerging, from the Horde perspective, has the potential to be nice and fast, but is far less than 50% likely to win lately.

Anyway, my excuse for why my post is in here at all... All of these observations above are why I got interested in Rath Strat and other premades. Because Horde "pug" group behavior is strangely addicted to a strategy that rarely wins -- in both AV and IoC. I don't really know why you're anti what I posted or why you're calling me a liar except maybe just to troll.
Edited by Crimpshrine on 4/20/2012 5:02 PM PDT
29 Tauren Paladin
10905
In general the alliance WILL win a all out "DAS BLITZKRIEG SCHNELL" rush. Just the way the map is. On my frost DK(with 20% mounted speed) if i beeline for north bunker(which is usually do) i can most of the time beat the alliance to our base. In zerg rushes 20% mount speed is one of the deciding factors to who wins a zerg.

Scorched earth AV's are still the best though, add's pvp to a pve BG. I might have to hit up a rath strat AV group once my next toon hits 85. I commend rath for bringing pvp to a nerfed BG.

All the alliance has to do to counter it is to hold SHGY and go around the galv defense. Although most pug's dont have the cordination to do so.

in general the map suits alliance zergs and horde turtles.
Edited by Zuladin on 4/20/2012 5:28 PM PDT
85 Blood Elf Rogue
3890
04/20/2012 10:35 AMPosted by Paetheas
@Ana: I agree with your last sentence there, though I believe the Horde's chances when specifically zerging AV are significantly worse than 50/50.


Stop lying. You are making yourself look stupid.

The majority of my AV's, horde cap SH bunker at least 15-20 secs before we attack IB tower and Balinda normally dies 10 secs before we kill Galv.

The map is completely balanced when both sides pve rush to the towers and general. The distance from the starting caves is the same(slightly in favor of horde b/c they reach SH bunker before we can reach IB tower), the horde general and commander are stronger and have more adds than their alliance counterparts, all tower and GY timers are the exact same for both sides.

This is easily the most horde favored BG in THE ENTIRE GAME. Every aspect of the BG favors horde. There is a reason why Rath and his premades play this BG only, simply picking AV gives the horde a big advantage. Once you add in the 'scorched earth strat', 40 man premade vs 32 man PuG, ventrilo, etc, no horde team should ever lose.

All the talk about 'forming a counter strat' is basically just another form of republican FoX news rhetoric to distract alliance from the fact that the game developer's themselves created the BG as one of the most unbalanced fighting scenario's in the game. It would be like a baseball team moving the bases back 30 feet when the opposing team is up to bat and telling them 'you need to figure out how to work around this disadvantage we dont have'.



You conveniently forgot to mention that once you as alliance, arrive in any horde controlled tower that you can simply run in and cap and not have to be concerned about fighting npc guards who are shooting arrows at you. Time does matter. You also forgot to mention all the allied npc's that must be engaged prior to even getting to Van's room. Add this up and clearly the allies have many more adds for the horde to kill than Drek does.

Kill Galv? Nobody kills our sexy beastman Galv in the AV's I play. As for Balinda, we graciously allow her to live at least 20-25 minutes, just long enough to burn everything south of her bunker then she gets laid to rest as well, too bad she doesn't respawn in the graveyard too. *pout*

As for Rath and his premades, they do not play just AV. I run WSG's, AB's, EoTS's and sometimes whatever the CTA is, depending on who is available to lead them. So your theory of: "reason why Rath and his premades play this BG only, simply picking AV gives the horde a big advantage." does not compute. What are you going to say next, those are all horde favored bg's as well?

The end result the majority of the time for me in a random pug group, the allies zerg to Drek and kill him game over. This is far from balanced and everyone who has played AV more than a few games know this. The Rath strat demonstratively denies the allies this zerg-fest and greatly increases the hordes probability of winning the BG. The only thing the horde can do and is very beneficial is to cause a turtle.

Therefore you can see this is very alliance favored if not the most allied favored bg blizzard has ever made.

Thing is, some people, if not many are accustomed to instant gratification and want the BG over quickly. This works in favor of the allies because it lines up with their modus operandi, zerg to Drek, kill, game over.
85 Goblin Priest
970
You conveniently haven't ever used the LoS in the bunkers to cap which is pretty damn easy, every bunker has a LoS cap.

You conveniently probably haven't ever run first down to Drek, besides the tunneling NPC's and the fact that the towers can flat out shoot you completely until you kill all archers...

''flat out knows this''.

what my personal experience dictates is a very freakin' different story. I've lost a !@#$load more AV as alliance to zergs than I do as horde.

I'm all for Open Debate and constructive conversations, but you are so damn condescending.
Edited by Anastaszia on 4/20/2012 7:34 PM PDT
All I will say about the the map. I faction changed when I came back to alliance because it was AV weekend and I had zero PvP gear for enhance and was in season 9 for resto. I strictly remember losing only two games that entire weekend. I had enough honor to max out my entire PvP enhance set with mostly upgrading my Resto spec. I won near 50 games while only losing two.

My buddy who came back with me didn't want to transfer because he didn't want to waste the money. Same situation except he is a warrior in season 9 gear. He barley had enough to get all his gear for PvP. He said he easily lost 70-80% of all AV's.

There is a LoS spot to cap the alliance towers. Still Alliance have it a little easier to cap. The LoS spot isn't all that big. Once you master it, it isn't that hard to go straight to it. They are also easier to defend which does benefit both factions. One rogue can keep people busy for a while. Well put an ele shaman or boomkin on a horde tower prob same thing.

Pae I don't think you really play much AV. If you want I will run like 10 pug AV's and video each game for you. Horde WILL take SHB first I agree. Galv falls before bal by a good amount. Alliance does get to first boss first. Think about where the door is. Alliance runs stright in, horde runs by Bal then has to turn around and button hook in. It is more than a couple of seconds and Bal also Ice Blocks. Honestly they have the same amount of adds. Both have 1 pet lol. I don't know where you got that idea. Galv does die first. In MY experience before horde caps IWB Alliance has TP and IBT. They definitely each time have the base towers. That is mostly because horde is slow at zerging the base. But if you want alliance could rocket boots and parachute from their starting hill WAY WAY WAY in front of everyone. You can get from the hill to IWB really fast.

Each side has great tactical advantage for the map. They are in different spots and different scenarios. If you cannot see it you are just being naive or trolling.

I am speaking from fair experience. I am the guy who would run to SHB cap it and defend it. I would watch timers and decide if I needed to back cap. 90% if the time I would try and get a few people to do it because alliance had the 2 tower down advantage in the games. Whoever gets two towers down first wins. At that point anyone can tank the bosses with two adds up
86 Gnome Warrior
5540
Aww, horde only? Drat.

That public WoW vent sounds like fun, though....
90 Night Elf Hunter
14040
Chewnok, i am explaining this b/c so many horde posters have heard the lie about how zerging favors alliance in AV when in all actuality, IT DOESNT. Ive tried to explain this several times, with horde posters unkowingly backing up my assertations.

This is the exact same strategy FoX news uses when it wants people to think the way they do, they lie about something over and over and over. Eventually, the stupid people that watch their show hear it so much, they start to think it's true and they tell all their friends. This creates a chain of lies that everyone just takes for granted as truth b/c they have heard it so much.

The distance from the starting caves to the towers are THE SAME. By your own statement, you normally cap SH bunker first. The reason alliance will win SLIGHTLY more than 50% is that they take advantage of the fact that there is no reason for 40 people inside Galv/Balinda and the first two towers. 95% of every PuG AV, 4-5 pallies/dk's ride straight from the starting cave all the way down to FW east and west tower with their 20% mounted speed bonus. This is the ONLY REASON why alliance tend to cap the last two towers before horde. The vast majority of games i see, the horde send 35-40 men into balinda and to backcap TP and IBT.

The times when the horde play intelligently, and send a pally or dk to the SH bunkers, they cap them at the same time our pallies and dk's are attacking FW east and west.

The reason alliance will normally win a zerg race is b/c they play smarter. The reason horde wins at all other times is b/c of map imbalances. You can try to claim that the map is alliance favored, Bethel(that gave me a great laugh), but claiming the sky is purple doesnt actually make it so.

If horde would simply do the same thing alliance does and send their mounted dk's and pallies(for the speed increase) to the final 2 towers, i guarantee you horde would probably start winning 75% or more of all PuG AV's.

@Chewnok, You claiming i dont do AV is just lol worthy. It's too bad we have this little thing called statistics page. You might want to check it out sometime.

P.s. How about this for your stupid lie about how AV so favors an alliance zerg. Every single horde posting in this thread has approx a 60%+ win rate in AV, higher than even mine! Clearly alliance wins so easily in PuG vs PuG AV. . .Oh wait, they dont. See how stupid lies sound when put up against statistical evidence. If zerging so favors AV, why do almost all horde have greater than a 50% win rate?
Edited by Paetheas on 4/21/2012 9:14 AM PDT
04/20/2012 04:51 PMPosted by Crimpshrine


Stop lying. You are making yourself look stupid.

The majority of my AV's, horde cap SH bunker at least 15-20 secs before we attack IB tower and Balinda normally dies 10 secs before we kill Galv.

The map is completely balanced when both sides pve rush to the towers and general. The distance from the starting caves is the same(slightly in favor of horde b/c they reach SH bunker before we can reach IB tower), the horde general and commander are stronger and have more adds than their alliance counterparts, all tower and GY timers are the exact same for both sides.

This is easily the most horde favored BG in THE ENTIRE GAME. Every aspect of the BG favors horde. There is a reason why Rath and his premades play this BG only, simply picking AV gives the horde a big advantage. Once you add in the 'scorched earth strat', 40 man premade vs 32 man PuG, ventrilo, etc, no horde team should ever lose.


Your "look stupid" remark adds nothing to the discussion, and no thanks for calling me a liar. I'm calling things as I see them, and I presume you are too.

I'll grant you that AV seems to be set up in favor of the Horde IF enough organization, communication, and proper use of terrain and structures takes place. I was strictly speaking of ONLY the zerg vs. zerg case that has predominated in both Wrath and Cata as soon as gear levels were high enough to allow a zerg/blitz strategy to work at all.

What I see when I enter random/pug AVs, since about the start of 2012, is 95% of the time it's purely zerg vs zerg and the stronger zerg wins. And I'm seeing about 20% wins or less for the Horde in these runs. That's over hundreds of queues on several different toons on all different days of the week -- though I sometimes wonder if it's my time slot that is the problem somehow (I'm usually on around midnight to 4am eastern time).

So I'm seeing the Alliance win more than 4 out of 5 random AVs, and I always watch the timers and stats to try and figure out how it happened. By far the most often source of the Alliance win is that they pull Drek long before we pull Vann, anywhere from 20 seconds to over a minute difference between the two. And leading up to that, the reason they're able to pull Drek first is that they almost always get at least one, and sometimes both, of the Frostwolf Towers burned before we do the same with the Dun Baldars.

Notice I'm not talking about midfield towers and captains, so let's not argue about someone else's issue. I'm just telling you honestly what I've been seeing in these very common zerg-vs-zerg runs, and I'm telling you the Horde has serious difficulty winning in that particular situation which happens to be the most common one by far.

I don't pretend to know the reasons why. I could jump to conclusions like "my faction just sucks in large random/pug groups and for some reason the other faction is just better at that." But that sounds kind of statistically unlikely. I could blame it on the map but I'd rather not. All I know is that zerging, from the Horde perspective, has the potential to be nice and fast, but is far less than 50% likely to win lately.

Anyway, my excuse for why my post is in here at all... All of these observations above are why I got interested in Rath Strat and other premades. Because Horde "pug" group behavior is strangely addicted to a strategy that rarely wins -- in both AV and IoC. I don't really know why you're anti what I posted or why you're calling me a liar except maybe just to troll.


The zerg can work equally for both sides. As to why it doesn't? I honestly don't know. The map doesn't create the problem. It comes from player mentality and propaganda would be my guess. I think horde lose more players to mid-map recaps while alliance leave very few at mid and instead go straight to FW Keep. This late into the x-pac, it's not hard to kill Drek/Vann with two towers up so that could be why alliance, at least seem to, win AV zergs more often. My personal experience has not been this. I lose to as many zergs as I win.
Aww, horde only? Drat.

That public WoW vent sounds like fun, though....


My understanding is there are a few people in Rath's group who are working on developing an Alliance subgroup. There are also several existing pre-made Alliance groups floating around the forums too.
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