Blizz: Only Gameplay, orcs, and humans matter

04/12/2012 07:34 PMPosted by Wolfieone

If I might, Zarhym-

I don't think anyone who has a problem with the concept of the High King (full disclosure: I am one of those people) has a beef with the concept of monarchy itself, but the idea of one monarchy or, indeed, any one government ruling over the entirety of the Alliance. The Horde is one state with one leader. The Alliance is, well... an Alliance. There are many states which are, in theory, equal within the Alliance. The heads of state of these nations, be they monarchs, theocrats or elected officials, meet and create policy together. The concept of a "high king" goes against the manner in which the Alliance was founded and portrayed. And frankly, Ferlion does have a point, why WOULD citizens of independent states be okay with giving up their sovereignty to be ruled by a king halfway around the world?

I get why you guys are doing the "High King" stuff. The Alliance does need a central figure to rally around, and frankly, it's far easier to write a singular heroic figure than have our quests be taking the minutes of the Alliance's most recent meeting to organize international tax policy. But why does this central figure need to be a KING, with all of the autocratic power and, frankly, human-centric culture that entails? Why must the character be a king, when a Supreme Allied Commander serves the same role? There's precedent for it within the lore, and frankly, if it was good enough for Anduin Lothar, it should be good enough for Varian Wrynn.


It's not a full emperor's crown - it's just leader of Alliance military

The leader of the combined military is the Supreme Allied Commander. We know, because that position exists in lore. We know its powers and its limitations.

High King is something being wholly invented, though the title implies that Varian will have the ability to interfere in the civilian governments of the theoretically or previously sovereign states of the Alliance. If Varian truly has no control over the civilian governments of the Alliance (beyond his power over Stormwind), why call him a "high king" and not just the Supreme Allied Commander?
90 Night Elf Druid
9145
It's not a full emperor's crown - it's just leader of Alliance military


Well, two things here.

A) that's a guess, and High King is an actual thing. IT has a meaning that is attatched to it in the real world. It is full crown authority.

And

B) Leader of Alliance Military is Supreme Allied Commander. Which is what Omacron was suggesting. This position exists in the lore already
Edited by Ferlion on 4/12/2012 7:38 PM PDT
90 Tauren Druid
8985
I mostly said that in reaction to Skytotem's reaction to this thread on SoL.

http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23187


Oddly, this is not SoL, nor was his post made here.

So why aren't you posting that on SoL? Seems pretty obvious that you're in the wrong place either way.

So please, instead of bringing in posts from another forum can we keep it to this one and make things more constructive?

Appreciated.
Edited by Bullcowsby on 4/12/2012 7:38 PM PDT
90 Troll Druid
11640
04/12/2012 07:34 PMPosted by Wolfieone

If I might, Zarhym-

I don't think anyone who has a problem with the concept of the High King (full disclosure: I am one of those people) has a beef with the concept of monarchy itself, but the idea of one monarchy or, indeed, any one government ruling over the entirety of the Alliance. The Horde is one state with one leader. The Alliance is, well... an Alliance. There are many states which are, in theory, equal within the Alliance. The heads of state of these nations, be they monarchs, theocrats or elected officials, meet and create policy together. The concept of a "high king" goes against the manner in which the Alliance was founded and portrayed. And frankly, Ferlion does have a point, why WOULD citizens of independent states be okay with giving up their sovereignty to be ruled by a king halfway around the world?

I get why you guys are doing the "High King" stuff. The Alliance does need a central figure to rally around, and frankly, it's far easier to write a singular heroic figure than have our quests be taking the minutes of the Alliance's most recent meeting to organize international tax policy. But why does this central figure need to be a KING, with all of the autocratic power and, frankly, human-centric culture that entails? Why must the character be a king, when a Supreme Allied Commander serves the same role? There's precedent for it within the lore, and frankly, if it was good enough for Anduin Lothar, it should be good enough for Varian Wrynn.


It's not a full emperor's crown - it's just leader of Alliance military


No. It is a full emperor's crown by the very definition of King. The world High implies he rules over something more than a king.

Now, what Omacron suggests, that's just a leader of the Alliance's army.
90 Night Elf Hunter
5515
And even the High King idea (which frankly shatters what many feel is the thematic of an Alliance) seems to support this idea.

Similar to what I said about the Horde above, the Alliance formed an allegiance around human kingdoms. If you're suggesting they're thematically better served by a republic or democracy, Azeroth lore says otherwise.


This is off. The thematic problem is not monarchy, it is the idea of only a single monarch. As you said, the Alliance formed an allegiance around human kingdoms (plural), not a single king.

The High King idea is a new concept, that seems to put Varian far above the other leaders of the Alliance, as a direct and symmetrical counter to Garrosh. Terenas Menethil and Anduin Lothar were not warchiefs, even if they did have the most power and command.

What about the old art of all the Alliance leaders sitting around a table?

http://www.wowpedia.org/images/9/90/Leaders_and_representantives_of_the_Alliance.jpg

They are not the Horde, and they should not have a renamed warchief.
Edited by Pumlaxer on 4/12/2012 7:43 PM PDT
85 Human Warlock
5455
I mostly said that in reaction to Skytotem's reaction to this thread on SoL.

http://www.scrollsoflore.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23187


Oddly, this is not SoL, nor was his post made here.

So why aren't you posting that on SoL? Seems pretty obvious that you're in the wrong place either way.

So please, instead of bringing in posts from another forum can we keep it to this one and make things more constructive?

Appreciated.


*shrug* As you wish. Not sure what the issue is, but I'll play along.
90 Pandaren Shaman
15040
Why, exactly would I want to follow a king who is not only thousands of years younger, but who you claim was delibratly written to be an !@#$%^- (and sorry for the language thing here, and I'll have to find the interview, but it was Blizzards words, and not mine).

This, again, can be drawn back to my reason for responding to this thread. You don't have the exact quote, but you're claiming we said Varian was written to be an [expletive deleted]. I don't know what quote you're referring to because, well, neither do you it seems. But I think I know where the general phrase you picked up on came from.

Chris said in interviews during the Mists of Pandaria press tour that Varian was written with several character flaws, and we expected him to have likability issues. The whole point was to create a character who was a little rough around the edges. It makes for a more interesting story when you see a flawed individual rise up to the challenges of being a truly great leader, which is what we have in store for Varian this expansion. So it was important for us to give him a bit of dimension in terms of personality.

Now, sure, I'm paraphrasing what Chris said as well. The difference here though is I sat in with him on multiple interviews where he relayed this sentiment. So my paraphrasing is more accurate than yours. :p

If what he was saying has been taken "out of context" then why are you making such efforts to ensure humans and orcs are always the "guys in charge" or superior to everyone else?

We're not going out of our way to ensure they're always the ones in charge. But that's been the natural progression since the Horde were founded more or less under absolute rule by the most powerful chief of the most powerful orc clan.

And even the High King idea (which frankly shatters what many feel is the thematic of an Alliance) seems to support this idea.

Similar to what I said about the Horde above, the Alliance formed an allegiance around human kingdoms. If you're suggesting they're thematically better served by a republic or democracy, Azeroth lore says otherwise.


I really don't like being whiny Zarhym, but putting the stuff that was supposed to develop his character and make you like him only in Books and Comics isn't my idea of good storytelling.

The only thing people saw of Varian in game was his flaws and "ME RAAAGE!!1!",
Edited by Khaerys on 4/12/2012 7:51 PM PDT
90 Night Elf Druid
9145
Also, Zarth!

Right, yeah. And he has acted like an !@#$%^-, much by design. But now it's time for him to pull it together, because the world is acting like an *!@#$%^, and it's all teetering on the brink. And he's gotta find that next gear and really become this king that all the Alliance races unequivocally tell, "Yeah, we will follow you to the gates of Orgrimmar and beyond." So I'm really really excited about Varian and about the Alliance in general.


http://wow.joystiq.com/2012/03/19/mists-of-pandaria-chris-metzen-interview/

Yes, same reasons you said apply and are mentioned in the interview, but first impressions and all that jazz.

.
Edited by Ferlion on 4/12/2012 7:48 PM PDT
90 Pandaren Priest
11940
04/12/2012 05:12 PMPosted by Cancionanxo
But I beg you not to start the discussion based on a false pretense.


beg


..... you shouldn't be begging these unwashed cretins for anything, Mr. Zarhym; you should be crushing them beneath your unreasonably sexy heel! CRUSHING, I say!!

/shakefist


What heel? Don't you mean chin?
85 Human Warlock
5455
04/12/2012 07:46 PMPosted by Khaerys

This, again, can be drawn back to my reason for responding to this thread. You don't have the exact quote, but you're claiming we said Varian was written to be an [expletive deleted]. I don't know what quote you're referring to because, well, neither do you it seems. But I think I know where the general phrase you picked up on came from.

Chris said in interviews during the Mists of Pandaria press tour that Varian was written with several character flaws, and we expected him to have likability issues. The whole point was to create a character who was a little rough around the edges. It makes for a more interesting story when you see a flawed individual rise up to the challenges of being a truly great leader, which is what we have in store for Varian this expansion. So it was important for us to give him a bit of dimension in terms of personality.

Now, sure, I'm paraphrasing what Chris said as well. The difference here though is I sat in with him on multiple interviews where he relayed this sentiment. So my paraphrasing is more accurate than yours. :p


We're not going out of our way to ensure they're always the ones in charge. But that's been the natural progression since the Horde were founded more or less under absolute rule by the most powerful chief of the most powerful orc clan.


Similar to what I said about the Horde above, the Alliance formed an allegiance around human kingdoms. If you're suggesting they're thematically better served by a republic or democracy, Azeroth lore says otherwise.


I really don't like being whiny Zarhym, but putting the stuff that was supposed to develop his character and make you like him only in Books and Comics isn't my idea of good storytelling.

The only thing people saw of Varian is "ME RAAAGE"


Telling a story exclusively in an MMO setting is extremely difficult to pull off well. Besides, it seems to me that only people who genuinely care about the lore and story will read the books, and the others won't really care either way.

I'd honestly prefer to read a short story than do something monotonous in-game while someone narrates painfully-obvious exposition.
58 Blood Elf Death Knight
520
I also feel a great sense of disconnect from the story because too much of it happens in books and not enough in game, sometimes not at all in game, or with any sense of finality.

Southshore, a zone I fell in love with as I leveled in vanilla WOW, was pretty much wrecked by a patch... no cinema, no anything. Now there is a flight path there and lots of green stuff. NPCs are simply deleted from the database, given no sense of closure... its things like that I really wish Blizz would improve upon.

Lorna Crowley from the worgen zones, one of the most fleshed out and interesting characters to come from that faction, gets abducted and held hostage in a chain that only a horde toon can ever see. And even once you see it, the whereabouts of the character are never disclosed. She simply vanishes. Doesn't head to SW or Darnassus, etc, its as if the game forgot her. That's irked me since the start of Cataclysm.

I love WOW, I'll play it till the day the servers shut down for the last time. But the storytelling in game (as good as it is sometimes), needs improvement. Less novels, more cinematics/quests/etc that tell us IN GAME what is happening.
1 Blood Elf Mage
0
I don't get why some have so drastically misinterpreted that interview with Chris Metzen.

When I read it, I had the opposite impression. For once, I was convinced that he knows what he's talking about and knows the general state of the lore, as he obviously should, being the head of the department for story development. Not that I have ever been cynical of him and his efforts, but this was one interview that really explained his view of the lore and its development in a detailed manner.

He outlined all sorts of places in the lore and the chronology of its development that showed that they really put effort into it and were doing so dynamically rather than just following a five year old brainstorming sheet.

I also liked how he pointed out that MoP is NOT all about pandaren, that they're but one element, and the main theme is the conflict between the Alliance and the Horde.

Speaking of which, this very conflict is exactly what brings WoW above other MMORPGs. Just look at Blizzcon. The audience errupts with attachment to their favored faction, divided in a rivalry that extends beyond the game and into the fandom at large.

Meanwhile, other MMORPGs are being released as glorified co-op RPGs, failing to create the sort of intense attachment to playable factions that WoW provides its player base.

All in all, Skytotem utterly misinterpreted the interview. I imagine he had other reasons for quitting, and this just gave him a vibrant reason to up and leave at last, even though it was an errenous, likely forced interpretation.

P.S. This isn't an alt (I post only on this character), and I hate Thrall to no end, so please withold Metzen fanboy accusations.
90 Night Elf Hunter
5515
"Supreme Allied Commander" does indeed exist:

http://www.wowhead.com/object=181475/monument-of-remembrance

http://www.wowpedia.org/images/3/37/Plaque-monumentofremembrance.jpg

Yet "High King" does not.

They have completely different connotations.
90 Pandaren Shaman
15040
I really don't like being whiny Zarhym, but putting the stuff that was supposed to develop his character and make you like him only in Books and Comics isn't my idea of good storytelling.

The only thing people saw of Varian is "ME RAAAGE"


Telling a story exclusively in an MMO setting is extremely difficult to pull off well. Besides, it seems to me that only people who genuinely care about the lore and story will read the books, and the others won't really care either way.

I'd honestly prefer to read a short story than do something monotonous in-game while someone narrates painfully-obvious exposition.

I know, what happened to him , i'm quite the bookworm, but as much as there is the lore issue with the expanded universe and how it impacts in game lore and confuse players, that wasn't my point.

My point is getting EVERYTHING that it's supposed to make you like/dislike the character and stick it in a book. How would you feel if all Arthas/Lich King lore were stuck in a book of the expanded universe (without a single northrend quest involving him) and then just thrown at you as the final xpac boss. You just wouldn't be able to relate to him, or even have reasons to like/hate him at all.

And look at the rogue Legendary quest chain, it is possible to make a real epic story line in game filled with lore, they've just haven't bothered doing it in the Varian case.

Imagine how awesome it would be if the Varian/Greymane fight was a quest chain on Ashenvalle.
Edited by Khaerys on 4/12/2012 7:59 PM PDT
90 Orc Rogue
12550
04/12/2012 07:17 PMPosted by Gnorby
They can do with the story/universe/characters what they like. Your arguments are akin to a Harry Potter fan trying to tell Rowling how to progress the story while she's writing the next book. It's her story!

By that logic, if Metzen wants to destroy the Alliance by the hand of Thrall, then i guess the Alliance players should be okay, right? I mean, it's their story? :D

What most people want is to see more about the other races in the game (and preferably not in books). they are not asking to take away their grand story of Thrall-Jesus and his ascension to Holy Savior of Azeroth, but more about how the other races can do stuff without having to gravitate around the orc-humans, or even worse, the lore team favorites (hi, Mr "hush, tyrande" D: )

And its not like the players want a face to punch in-forums every time they dont like something. It wont happen that, They wont get away with that, even if they try it xD they want to feel they are listened, their feedback considered :) this happens in the dev team, thanks to the presence of Ghostcrawler in forums. Some people dont like him, but most of us agree its great to have such contact with the powers that be inside the game :D

We get nothing like that with the Lore Team. The first (and only) step taken in the right direction was Nyorloth as a blue. Few posts, but he sometimes gave interesting points to chew about lore, he was in charge of some other stuff about the story of Warcraft, and people respected him because of that. Then he gets axed.
IMO, I dont think Metzen has to open a blue forum account named "Mr.Metzenhere" or anything like that, but maybe more visible presence of the writing team in forums could do great things to improve the feeling around the lore fans of not being listened. Take a page from GC modus operandi, and apply it, writing team! :D If the short-lived life of Nyorloth was any indication, you wont be drown in a pool of nerd-rage, that i'm sure :3
90 Draenei Shaman
15920
Maybe if Varian becomes High King, Ulfric Stormcloak will come in and shout him to death.
85 Worgen Rogue
13435
Imagine how awesome it would be if the Varian/Greymane fight were a quest chain on Ashenvalle


Screw that. Give me Tyrande and Malfurion.
87 Night Elf Mage
8640
I have a question for the blue.

Are Alliance towns in MoP still going to be perpetually on fire, half constructed, or both throughout the expansion?


You know, even I have to admit that Astranaar has been on fire for an awful long time now. ;)


There are a couple of relatively simple quests you can do in Astranaar that puts out the fires and stops the attacks. It doesn't even matter if you haven't done any other quests in Ashenvale. When you return on that same character months or years later, the fires remain out and there is no more attacks going on.

Sadly, there are at least three or four other areas where phasing should have been put in place in Ashenvale and wasn't.
90 Dwarf Warrior
14765
04/12/2012 07:17 PMPosted by Wolfieone
short-sighted like gnomes


HA!
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