Blizz: Only Gameplay, orcs, and humans matter

1 Draenei Mage
0
As someone who has loved Blood Elves since WC3 (poor poor Kael'thas), its disappointing to know that my race hasn't gotten an ounce of attention since BC and probably never will. I mean HELL even the short story blizz wrote up for all the leaders, was bull---ony. OH HEY HEY BLOOD ELVES, WE'RE GIVING YOU A STORY ABOUT THE INTERIM OF BC TO WOTLK, ENJOY!

I don't even know what the Blood Elves stand for or what they're doing. It's pathetic.
97 Night Elf Hunter
14585
I think the reason humans(and horde equivalent in the orcs) are the leaders is because humans(and orcs) are the most flexible and resilient race out there. A lot of the longer lived races seem stuck on past issues instead of moving forward. It has been shown time and time in again in the fantasy genre that humans adapt to everything that comes their way, mostly due to the fact that they are a short lived race and they make the most of their time in the world. Elves seem to be constantly stuck where they stand magically, and are having issues moving past their loss of immortality and more powerful arcane magics. Dwarves do nothing but focus on family quarrels, and still dont trust each other when they put one of each faction on their personal council. Draeni dont care to lead, they are a support group and prefer to focus on not falling from the light and taking care of their own.

(I cant really offer much up on the horde since I dont play that side or follow their stories much)
41 Gnome Priest
310
Because it contradicted what the lead devs claim, not by "fact" but by "word of law".

An artist is always arrogant of his artwork, even to the fitting end. It's no different in this case.

Besides Zarph is community manager, it's likely he can' let a peep of negativity over the franchise, since for some reason business views self criticism as a weakness.


Well that's true. The CMs don't criticize the game, although I know ghostcrawlers blog about Cataclysm postmortem was pretty good because he actually addressed both the strengths AND weaknesses of the expansion. But businesses don't usually criticize themselves anyway, they need to keep generating good news all the time.

I know they just come here to moderate the forums and relay some choice information back to the developers at times. But it just feels like there is no communication at all.

How are those "Ask the CDevs #3" lore questions asked 2 months ago coming along?
85 Night Elf Druid
5035
The Warcraft franchise has produced three very successful RTS games along with the most successful MMO of all time, because Blizzard understands and implements one simple truth.

Game play and game mechanics take priority over story and lore. Yes, lore is important and people can be passionate about out it.

However, at the end of the day when all is said and done, this isn't Tolkien literature that we're reading. It is a video game that we are playing which has some story and lore elements to it.
85 Troll Druid
2945
04/13/2012 01:35 PMPosted by Laxisa
I need to start telling other story writers how to actually write their book. Or tell musicians that I've liked how to write their music, since I'm an expert.


There's no such thing as an "Expert" Story Writer, only good story writing and bad story writing.
04/13/2012 01:35 PMPosted by Laxisa
But telling the people who made up the story how to write *their* story, (or well, from what I've seen, either passive aggressive, or flat out insult blues) is flat out illogical.


Criticism is what makes better writers, it's how writers learn from their mistakes, This story was not made to bolster their own self interests(Though it's written like one) it was made to supply a compelling background to a fantasy franchise. If the customer is displeased with it they can criticize them all they want. They aren't paying for someones day dreams smothered with pop culture references.
04/13/2012 01:35 PMPosted by Laxisa
Gamer entitlement has gotten to be insane over all aspects of games. We've gone to the brinks of thinking we're buddy buddy and we have these Blizzard employees on speed dial, ready to strike up a girl-chat about the day. They are writing *their* story while also listening to the opinions of many different people. Everyone thinks their opinions are the correct one because they are the majority: You are the loudest, not necessarily the majority.


No, We think out opinions are correct because they are logical and are based upon mutual agreement that lore aspects suck compared to a collective knowledge of story telling, The Majority of this community is like the majority of people on earth. If they had a say on majority rules then we'd be in another dark age.
04/13/2012 01:35 PMPosted by Laxisa
You paid, and are paying monthly for the game as is...you are not paying for future content that you are "owed" no matter how much you'd like to believe. If I'm not satisfied with any product, I don't purchase it and I move on.


In a game where content is delivered over the course of two years after initial purchase plus monthly few, this logic does no apply, We are told that the conetnt delivered will be good while not actually analyzing it. Cata started out good but got subsequently worse as time went on. Are you going to say that the majority of us previewed this happening?

04/13/2012 01:35 PMPosted by Laxisa
doesn't mean you are a professional story writer that has a right to interfere with another person's story.


I'm going to be very frank and very dark here, But a group of comic book reading DND metal heads who's favorite authors consist of speed writing franchise authors and pop culture references does not make a team of professional writers.
90 Night Elf Druid
15975
I like how this whole discussion spun off into a "putting words in mouth" and "context" discussion, when all it had to focus on was the actual EVENTS of the story to prove the point.

Simply put, many people who are fans of the warcraft story fell in love with it at WC3 (it was the best selling Warcraft game by far before WoW came out), which painted a canvass with paints from every race and faction.

Then WoW came out, and the original game was actually very hands-off storywise, which was a bit boring, but was also pretty fair. We had some raids you might have found more interesting if you were Human (Onyxia) or Night Elf (AQ 20-40) or Troll (Zul'Gurub), but there was no central STORY.

Then BC came out, which focused a lot on Blood Elves and Draenei, for understandable reasons. There were some treats for Orcs and Humans too, obviously, because of the history of Outlands in their war together, but when the time came to include more races in the events of the story, Blizzard failed magnificently: I'm talking about the Night Elves.

The Burning Legion were returning to Azeroth, the Night Elves' oldest foe and greatest sin, and where was Tyrande? Were were the sentinels? Nowhere. The story already had its heroes, the Shattered Sun Offensive, and there was no room for any extra depth or complexity.

WotLK obviously is when the "war" got kicked back into gear, and that's when Blizzard seemed to decide that the only way they could tell this story is retreading the Human/Orc conflict by putting Garrosh, against all reason, on the path that radically changed his character from BC and led to him becoming Warchief, somehow.

Why? So there would be another easy to write, predictable conflict that would drag all these other races against eachother for absolutely no reason.

Realistically speaking, there's absolutely no reason why the Tauren and Night Elves should be enemies. None. There has not been a single conflict between these people anywhere in the game. Why are they fighting? Because the Orcs and Humans are fighting.

Why are the Orcs and Humans fighting? Because their leaders are bloodthirsty idiots. How wonderful, then, that there are no other racial leaders to say "Screw you guys, fight it out among yourselves."

There are SO MANY other ways the story can focus on the Horde and Alliance conflict. But it always circles back to Orcs/Humans, because that's the one that requires the least imagination and effort... especially when you put leaders in place with absolutely no real leadership ability whatsoever.

It's gotten old. I don't know anyone who still plays this game for the story. We play because our friends play and for the gameplay itself, but even my RP friends just make our own stories up and borrow Warcraft features, sometimes outright ignoring the major plot points of the last few years.

So yeah. Cool. Garrosh will be gone, and Variann will "grow as a leader." I'd like to say I'm interested to see what happens after Mists of Panderia, but I just don't care anymore; it would have to be about the Titans or the Emerald Dream or something completely new to make me interested at all, like Panderia, because watching them beat this dead horse any longer is just embarrassing, and it has been for awhile now.
95 Gnome Warlock
2100
04/13/2012 01:21 PMPosted by Shilin
His show of knowing lore alone would get them to take things seriously with him if he shows it to them.


Seeing as how they fired their resident lore nerd recently, and the only one that was responsible for showing any type of Blizzard acknowledgement of people's interests in the story over at the lore forums, I seriously doubt that having lore chops would get him too far before security removed him.
04/13/2012 01:48 PMPosted by Seebach

I haven't had a drink this year, thank you very much! I've been on the forums long enough that they've caused me to drink, AND caused me to stop drinking. :p


Great Job derailing the thread.

This is more oft than not why nothing gets taken seriously around here.

I'll be taking my break from the forums now, if you please.


I don't think him responding to comments about him drinking counts as him derailing the thread, if that's what you mean. >.>

Also, if you're expecting to be banned for expressing an opinion, you're not exactly going about it the right way. You actually have to commit an infraction of the rules.
04/13/2012 01:59 PMPosted by Bomdanil
Seeing as how they fired their resident lore nerd recently, and the only one that was responsible for showing any type of Blizzard acknowledgement of people's interests in the story over at the lore forums, I seriously doubt that having lore chops would get him too far before security removed him.


I was referring to if Sky went to an event where the Dev.s are doing Q&A's as a person to simply ask them about things. Text is something that is easily misunderstood and can leave gaps that talking to the person themselves face to face doesn't.
41 Gnome Priest
310
I like how this whole discussion spun off into a "putting words in mouth" and "context" discussion, when all it had to focus on was the actual EVENTS of the story to prove the point.

Simply put, many people who are fans of the warcraft story fell in love with it at WC3 (it was the best selling Warcraft game by far before WoW came out), which painted a canvass with paints from every race and faction.

Then WoW came out, and the original game was actually very hands-off storywise, which was a bit boring, but was also pretty fair. We had some raids you might have found more interesting if you were Human (Onyxia) or Night Elf (AQ 20-40) or Troll (Zul'Gurub), but there was no central STORY.

Then BC came out, which focused a lot on Blood Elves and Draenei, for understandable reasons. There were some treats for Orcs and Humans too, obviously, because of the history of Outlands in their war together, but when the time came to include more races in the events of the story, Blizzard failed magnificently: I'm talking about the Night Elves.

The Burning Legion were returning to Azeroth, the Night Elves' oldest foe and greatest sin, and where was Tyrande? Were were the sentinels? Nowhere. The story already had its heroes, the Shattered Sun Offensive, and there was no room for any extra depth or complexity.

WotLK obviously is when the "war" got kicked back into gear, and that's when Blizzard seemed to decide that the only way they could tell this story is retreading the Human/Orc conflict by putting Garrosh, against all reason, on the path that radically changed his character from BC and led to him becoming Warchief, somehow.

Why? So there would be another easy to write, predictable conflict that would drag all these other races against eachother for absolutely no reason.

Realistically speaking, there's absolutely no reason why the Tauren and Night Elves should be enemies. None. There has not been a single conflict between these people anywhere in the game. Why are they fighting? Because the Orcs and Humans are fighting.

Why are the Orcs and Humans fighting? Because their leaders are bloodthirsty idiots. How wonderful, then, that there are no other racial leaders to say "Screw you guys, fight it out among yourselves."

There are SO MANY other ways the story can focus on the Horde and Alliance conflict. But it always circles back to Orcs/Humans, because that's the one that requires the least imagination and effort... especially when you put leaders in place with absolutely no real leadership ability whatsoever.

It's gotten old. I don't know anyone who still plays this game for the story. We play because our friends play and for the gameplay itself, but even my RP friends just make our own stories up and borrow Warcraft features, sometimes outright ignoring the major plot points of the last few years.

So yeah. Cool. Garrosh will be gone, and Variann will "grow as a leader." I'd like to say I'm interested to see what happens after Mists of Panderia, but I just don't care anymore; it would have to be about the Titans or the Emerald Dream or something completely new to make me interested at all, like Panderia, because watching them beat this dead horse any longer is just embarrassing, and it has been for awhile now.


Wow, loved this post. You really laid out the progression of the story really well. The writers seem to get tunnel vision, and in an expansive universe like Warcraft that severely cripples the story.
100 Human Priest
23000
The Alliance has always been a group of nations working together, no one nation being overly dominant. Even back in W2, Terenas just led discussions but the other kings still had other opinions which makes them interesting, they had debates. Gilneas was concerned with solely itself and Alterac as well to the point of betrayal.

Now? They want Varian to lead the Alliance as High King with all the other races following him through the gates of hell. We don't hear about the other leaders opinions, they're just going for it which is boring that they don't show differing opinions anymore. Heck, the Horde has more differing opinions right now even with a sovereign leader. Cairne's death made the Orcs relation with the Tauren strained, Vol'jin doesn't get along well with Garrosh and Sylvanas has been off doing her own thing. The Alliance hasn't had differing opinions for a long time.

It's also getting really repetitive and boring to just have the Humans and Orcs leading the war against each other. Was it alright the first few times? Yeah. But over and over again, it's painful. This game has many races, not everyone plays Humans/Orcs. Players like to see their race represented. Like it would be nice to see Tyrande leading the charge or Lor'themar "who?" Theron to actually be seen doing things. Instead there is a lot more focus on only two leaders.

Also on the Alliance collectible coins, Varian is indeed called "Human Military Leader of the Alliance", he already has the job of leading the military. He's done it in Battle for Undercity, popped up for ICC and did it in Wolfheart. He's got the job, no need for some fancy title. Funnily enough, the Tyrande coin says she's from Silvermoon.
100 Goblin Rogue
15025
04/13/2012 12:27 PMPosted by Zarhym
I imagine this is why Zarhym drinks.

I haven't had a drink this year, thank you very much! I've been on the forums long enough that they've caused me to drink, AND caused me to stop drinking. :p


Are you okay? It seems like these Horde-bias guys are getting to you a little. :o
95 Gnome Warlock
2100
04/13/2012 10:37 AMPosted by Monodex
Call the guys making a few hundred thousand more than you do a year "talent-less hacks".


Keanu Reeves couldn't act his way out of a wet paper bag, and yet he still manages to get multi--million dollar contracts because people liked some of the movies he was in inspite of his presence. Citing salary as evidence of skill is ridiculously simplistic thinking (ironic considering you called the one you were responding to a simpleton).
85 Troll Druid
2945
04/13/2012 02:03 PMPosted by Tianjan
Also, if you're expecting to be banned for expressing an opinion, you're not exactly going about it the right way. You actually have to commit an infraction of the rules.


No, but it shows the entirety of what the blues are willing to contribute on these issues. then again he's community manager, a job that doesn't require deep discussion over lore and game play issues.

Keanu Reeves couldn't act his way out of a wet paper bag, and yet he still manages to get multi--million dollar contracts because people liked some of the movies he was in inspite of his presence. Citing salary as evidence of skill is ridiculously simplistic thinking (ironic considering you called the one you were responding to a simpleton).


Hee.. Nicholas Cage...
Edited by Onimontu on 4/13/2012 2:26 PM PDT
100 Undead Priest
TSP
15740
I agree with the general timbre of this thread. Despite what reasons may have been given in the past, eg. limited resources, limited time, limited space, limited opportunity, it is nevertheless true that story telling is rather spotty in WoW and when it does happen it seems to happen due to the arbitrary will of somebody in the company that liked something ("We've always liked pandarans and we've always thought we should spend some time on pandarans so, what the heck, pandarans.")

It is legitimate to ask why anyone bothers to call WoW an MMORPG. In an RPG, the individual has primary responsibility and much control over determining the direction of his character. In WoW, particularly with each new expansion, we are utterly and completely at the mercy of Blizzard to tell us what our characters will be and how we will be interacting with them.

In this sense, then, it is abundantly clear that WoW is not an RPG at all. It's more like a comic strip series.

Would I have chosen any of the things that have happened to the Forsaken since the start of WoW? Absolutely not. And I most especially would not have chosen to participate in any story line that irrevocably and irretrievably transformed my race -- and by extension, my character -- into depraved monsters instead of the ardently self-determined, existentially-driven individuals that they began as.

Would I have chosen to participate in genocide in Stonetalon Mountains? Does Blizzard feel good about a story line that compels players to accept genocide as a conclusion? Since when is anything that has anything to do with genocide not in egregiously bad taste? Who at Blizzard was it that thought that genocide would be a good basis for story telling?

TL;DR: You have no ownership -- at all -- of the world or the environment in which you thought you were investing when you started your character. Blizzard will tell you what stories you must take part in and what conclusions you have to accept ... and you either have to like it (including, apparently, genocide) ... or stop subscribing.
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
I'd still like some comment on why they're basically destroying the Alliance and making it an Empire. And maybe why they think they have to do this instead of making the Alliance awesome in its current state.
85 Tauren Paladin
6345
Lol wow lore sucks.
100 Night Elf Hunter
11320
Well that's true. The CMs don't criticize the game, although I know ghostcrawlers blog about Cataclysm postmortem was pretty good because he actually addressed both the strengths AND weaknesses of the expansion. But businesses don't usually criticize themselves anyway, they need to keep generating good news all the time.


Ghostcrawler (Greg Street) is not a CM. He's the Lead Systems Designer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Street

He's one of the two people who are functionally in charge of WoW at the moment. The other one being Tom Chilton who's the Lead Game Designer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Chilton_(game_developer)

They both report to Rob Pardo, to my understanding.
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