Blizz: Only Gameplay, orcs, and humans matter

85 Troll Mage
5965
04/13/2012 01:23 PMPosted by Brandonb

I haven't had a drink this year, thank you very much! I've been on the forums long enough that they've caused me to drink, AND caused me to stop drinking. :p


Nearly 10 pages of discussion sense your last post, some of it not great discussion, and this is your choice for a response? Passive aggressive and off topic spin remarks aside, that's just low, how i see it,

"O hey guys, nice discussion, if you don't mind I'm just gonna make a silly post about nothing at all"

I think it was my mother who said "I only criticize you because I love you", and its applicable here, and the tone you took in this forum, Zarhym, is going to lead to no one posting anymore. Aka, we won't be criticizing, cause we won't give a flying hoo haa about the story. The op might have been misguided, but from what I've read here, he's been a long time poster and a valued member of the community, and your response was, "O hey, its you, whats this? Oh, its my middle finger, don't let the door hit ya on the way out." Was that out of context? I don't know, why don't you tell me? Being your an expert of context and all.


Good lord, stop getting your panties in a bunch over something so trivial. You, I, and everyone here all know that whatever Zar says is just not going to matter because you already have the mindset of believing the lore sucks. They aren't just going to do a major overhaul of certain things you think are "issues" so what did you want him to say? That "you're completely right and we'll rewrite everything right now!"?

It's silly to think these conversations get anywhere because they don't. Really there's no changing your minds.... it's pointless. A futile effort as seen in this thread already.
18 Troll Hunter
140
04/13/2012 03:53 PMPosted by Lemonjuice
You, I, and everyone here all know that whatever Zar says is just not going to matter because you already have the mindset of believing the lore sucks. They aren't just going to do a major overhaul of certain things you think are "issues" so what did you want him to say? That "you're completely right and we'll rewrite everything right now!"?


You are not understanding the complaints at all if this is all you can get out of it.

We don't want a major overhaul to appease the fans. We want some validation, someone to say, "Hey, you know we did drop the ball with Worgen or Draenei or making Wrynn the new war-chief, despite the Alliance being an actual alliance." We want to feel that our complaints are actually being noted.

Go to the beta forums and look at how GC is responding to class threads, is it really that much to ask to get a similar experience with lore?
100 Pandaren Shaman
18805
04/13/2012 03:25 PMPosted by Melyria
I'd still like some comment on why they're basically destroying the Alliance and making it an Empire. And maybe why they think they have to do this instead of making the Alliance awesome in its current state.


Why do you say that? There's no evidence that the title High King has any more meaning then "leader of Alliance Military". Right now, each side has split military forces - Nelfs send Sentinels, Draenei send Vindicators, ect. THey all have their own command structure, their own goals.

REmember how it easy it was for the Scourge plant to stop the Draenei Vindicator Squad in Borean Tundra from joining in? That's what the Alliance military is. To put it in meatworld historical context - the Alliance is the US before the Constitution, during the Articles of Confederation. It's a weak base for a military.

The High King title could be the center - a leaner, more directive-oriented military. No one "Human Outpost" versus "Gnome City" or "Draenei Village". Everyone works together.

THe Horde have succeeded by attacking one race at a time. Attacking Theramore - the human city with noone around. Ashenvale, the home of Night Elves, more separated then ever after the Cataclysm. Dun Algaz, the Dwarf stronghold in the Southern Barrens. Notice a theme? One race, one focus.

When the Horde attack, they bring everything - Orc warriors, Belf mages, troll Axethrowers - remember the ICC gunship battle? The Alliance - all humans, with a few dwarves maybe.

Treating the Alliance like an Alliance, like people who will work together to fight back, that will be VERY powerful. And a whole lot more interesting.

There's no evidence that Tryande, Velen and Genn will be bowing to the all mighty despot High King Varian. I don't see that happening. Instead, we'll have a military leader of ALL the disperate Alliance Forces.
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905


Nearly 10 pages of discussion sense your last post, some of it not great discussion, and this is your choice for a response? Passive aggressive and off topic spin remarks aside, that's just low, how i see it,

"O hey guys, nice discussion, if you don't mind I'm just gonna make a silly post about nothing at all"

I think it was my mother who said "I only criticize you because I love you", and its applicable here, and the tone you took in this forum, Zarhym, is going to lead to no one posting anymore. Aka, we won't be criticizing, cause we won't give a flying hoo haa about the story. The op might have been misguided, but from what I've read here, he's been a long time poster and a valued member of the community, and your response was, "O hey, its you, whats this? Oh, its my middle finger, don't let the door hit ya on the way out." Was that out of context? I don't know, why don't you tell me? Being your an expert of context and all.


Good lord, stop getting your panties in a bunch over something so trivial. You, I, and everyone here all know that whatever Zar says is just not going to matter because you already have the mindset of believing the lore sucks. They aren't just going to do a major overhaul of certain things you think are "issues" so what did you want him to say? That "you're completely right and we'll rewrite everything right now!"?

It's silly to think these conversations get anywhere because they don't. Really there's no changing your minds.... it's pointless. A futile effort as seen in this thread already.


Us 'lore nerds' have changed WoW before in things like Beta. We've also proven Blizz wrong a few times, called them out, etc.

We should be treated with the same respect as people who do PVE or PVP.
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
04/13/2012 04:08 PMPosted by Wolfieone
Why do you say that? There's no evidence that the title High King has any more meaning then "leader of Alliance Military". Right now, each side has split military forces - Nelfs send Sentinels, Draenei send Vindicators, ect. THey all have their own command structure, their own goals.


Because Sentinels, Vindicators, etc, are their nation's protectors, not the Alliance's. Varian should not be able to move Sentinel forces. He should be only able to move 7th Legion and joint operation movements.

Also, there is a title for the Alliance Military Leader. Its called Supreme Commander of Alliance Forces. Lothar was holding that title. Then Turalyon. "High King" sets a definite thematic difference.

And guess what? By the time its implimented or we get any details on what he does, it'll be too late to voice concern.

04/13/2012 04:08 PMPosted by Wolfieone
REmember how it easy it was for the Scourge plant to stop the Draenei Vindicator Squad in Borean Tundra from joining in? That's what the Alliance military is. To put it in meatworld historical context - the Alliance is the US before the Constitution, during the Articles of Confederation. It's a weak base for a military.


Then stop calling it an Alliance. Because it won't be.

04/13/2012 04:08 PMPosted by Wolfieone
The High King title could be the center - a leaner, more directive-oriented military. No one "Human Outpost" versus "Gnome City" or "Draenei Village". Everyone works together.


So the Horde, basically. Y'know, the Horde being a dictatorship.

04/13/2012 04:08 PMPosted by Wolfieone
THe Horde have succeeded by attacking one race at a time. Attacking Theramore - the human city with noone around. Ashenvale, the home of Night Elves, more separated then ever after the Cataclysm. Dun Algaz, the Dwarf stronghold in the Southern Barrens. Notice a theme? One race, one focus.


Yeah! LEts strip all the flavor and make the Alliance the Horde! Instead of making the Alliance work together on their own, without an overall leader. Because its not like we write the lore here at bli-oh, wait.

That's right. They totally could make every faction leader stand up and be powerful on their own. Thus preserving the Alliance and making them a force to be reckoned with.

04/13/2012 04:08 PMPosted by Wolfieone
Treating the Alliance like an Alliance, like people who will work together to fight back, that will be VERY powerful. And a whole lot more interesting.


You don't know what an Alliance is, do you? Putting one person in charge does not make an Alliance. Or do you think that one person led the Allied forces in WW2? Because there wasn't one clear cut leader. Winston, FDR and other political leaders all banded together and worked together, as equals. And they won.

04/13/2012 04:08 PMPosted by Wolfieone
There's no evidence that Tryande, Velen and Genn will be bowing to the all mighty despot High King Varian. I don't see that happening. Instead, we'll have a military leader of ALL the disperate Alliance Forces.


So you have no problem with a foreign nation leader taking control of another country's military? Because these are all countries. Not just races of the Alliance.

Canada and the USA are allied. What you're suggesting is, insteead of Canada offering support via troops and supplies, the USA just up and comandeers the Canadian military and takes control of them entirely.

Guess what? That isn't an Alliance.
100 Orc Warlock
10445
04/12/2012 05:16 PMPosted by Cregan
Seriously though, the fact that a lot of the new races are completly irrelevant now really dissapoints me. Worgen should be owning it up along side the Night Elves and Draenei in Ashenvale, just completly tearing it up over there. While there could be an all out war between the gnomes, dwarves, and goblins. Not to mention the vision Velen supposidly had that we havn't heard a peep of since launch. Zarhym just please put in a word that we would like to see more than Orcs and humans on the battle field. We want our old Night Elves back, the ones that strike without question and use the true and brutal forces of nature. Idk I really just miss Night Elves :(
They tried worgen in ashenvale, they spent all their time marking trees. Eventually the night elves said no more.
Edited by Nazekanu on 4/13/2012 4:18 PM PDT
100 Gnome Warlock
15365
I'm really just disgusted that all the Alliance is either:

A) A punching bag to show how awesome the Horde is.

B) A tool to forward the Horde storyline.

We haven't had anything going on this expansion besides Fandral (who's storyline was abruptly cut into by Superman--I meaan Thrall) and Malfurion returning (who was neutralized and stands there every day while his wife is murdered by a Horde raid). I could go into how Gilneas was never wrapped up, how Arathi ended without the return of Trollbane, or how Redridge was just a giant Rambo reference, or how all of our heroes from Outland our just in limbo, but I won't. We'll have some plot progression in MOP, and I'm excited, but I find out that in the end, it's all to return Thrall to power so the Horde will stop kicking the Alliance's !@#.

Wonderful... Maybe I'll let myself be heard next Blizzcon, presuming there isn't a band calling the Alliance homophobic slurs and the devs shouting 'For the Horde' as usual.
Edited by Virina on 4/13/2012 4:25 PM PDT
41 Gnome Priest
310
04/13/2012 03:49 PMPosted by Tasida
Well that's true. The CMs don't criticize the game, although I know ghostcrawlers blog about Cataclysm postmortem was pretty good because he actually addressed both the strengths AND weaknesses of the expansion. But businesses don't usually criticize themselves anyway, they need to keep generating good news all the time.


Ghostcrawler (Greg Street) is not a CM. He's the Lead Systems Designer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Street

He's one of the two people who are functionally in charge of WoW at the moment. The other one being Tom Chilton who's the Lead Game Designer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Chilton_(game_developer)

They both report to Rob Pardo, to my understanding.


I understand that, I was just saying that when the talk about their weaknesses you know it's something they acknowledge and are working to fix. Wasn't saying he was a CM.
I feel that whatever the reason for focusing so heavily on Orcs and Humans may be, it leaves people who play other races pretty much out in the cold snatching at scraps. Orcs and Humans are 2 out of 13 races. Not everyone plays orcs or humans, that doesn't mean they should be left out lore wise.
I am personally getting very sick of all the lore revolving about Orcs, Humans and Night Elves. And not even in a 'What about me?' way but in a, I am sick to death of Orcs and Humans and Night Elves way. There is such a thing as overexposure.
100 Gnome Warlock
15365
04/13/2012 04:25 PMPosted by Moyran
I am personally getting very sick of all the lore revolving about Orcs, Humans and Night Elves. And not even in a 'What about me?' way but in a, I am sick to death of Orcs and Humans and Night Elves way. There is such a thing as overexposure.


Haha, don't forget about trolls! It's not an expansion until Blizzard implements a giant raid/zone/dungeon with trolls!
85 Worgen Rogue
13435
There's Night Elf lore?

Where!?

All I see is this druid lore.
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
I feel that whatever the reason for focusing so heavily on Orcs and Humans may be, it leaves people who play other races pretty much out in the cold snatching at scraps. Orcs and Humans are 2 out of 13 races. Not everyone plays orcs or humans, that doesn't mean they should be left out lore wise.
I am personally getting very sick of all the lore revolving about Orcs, Humans and Night Elves. And not even in a 'What about me?' way but in a, I am sick to death of Orcs and Humans and Night Elves way. There is such a thing as overexposure.


The worst thing is the Night Elf 'exposure' didn't lead to much. We know Malfurion's back. But what did it all end up with?

Hyjal was neutral. Firelands was a neutral victory. Fandral... okay. We got Jerod back... as a neutral person. WE got the wardens back... as a neutral faction. We got Cenarius back... as a neutral faction.

Seriously. You know what the most development Night Elves really got since Malfurion's return? We got to see Azshara and Malfurion outright declined Night Elves their immortality when the dragons offered it back.

That's it. We were supposed to have a WoE raid. That would've at least been worth all the exposure. But no, we got a 5 man. And all that exposure did nothing but kick the legs out from under the Night Elves.

I know people are sick of the Night Elves. But shouldn't making an appearance, getting zones and getting instances and a raid actually progress the race's story?! Not Thrall's? Should that race get something out of being overexposed?
85 Gnome Priest
3085
The fact is, there is a war going on, but the Alliance seems mostly absent from it.

The way it has been written, the leaders all have priorities over the war.

That has been the way since vanilla. The horde v alliance thing has never taken centre stage for the alliance, but it has for the horde in many quests and zones. Sylvanas takes on a huge role in pushing into Gilneas and interacting with undead characters. Why doesnt anyone else?

Why doesnt Varian help westfall? Why doesnt Varian help redridge? Why.... instead its all these other characters who are zone specific and dont carry on at all (Except for the novelty rambo one).

The fact is there is no connection at all with the faction or the leaders. There is no... continuity. There are all these half battles with no resolution that serve as excuses to keep leaders away from things that matter.

Why didnt the Blood elves help the Undead in taking plague lands? Why leave them out? Why not have something to push them forward, instead they are another forgotten race, tbc was their only chance.

Why not have... anything happen?

The main problem I feel is that as Alliance you feel like nothing you do matters, its all treading water.

Why dont gnomes do anything other than make air ships and submarines (That horde seem to have as much if not more interaction with) why not have a Gnome hero who leads an army? Why not have.... etc...

The problem with wow is fundamentally, you have the "BIG" threat, non faction specific, and the 'threat' of the other faction, which doesnt really seem to matter at all. In the end what happens to Garrosh? he becomes a BIG threat because he goes insane or whatever. You seem inable to make things 'happen' without 'insane, corrupt.. etc..' happening to people.

Why not turn Garrosh into a tragic character that simply tries too hard and fails? Someone who turns the horde into a warmachine that simply breaks? That he simply fails as a general and leader?

The only reason people want Thrall back, is because outside of Saurfang, he is the only character the Orcs have.

You are too limited in your imagination, too limited in your scope, too limited in your characters. Things are shoved onto the shoulders of single characters when they should be spread over several.

Its hard to be specific when there are so many problems going on at the same time. Its like you have 'too much' going on while at the same time focusing on far too little.

Every faction should be involved in things that matter to them (Faction war matters to all factions)

Horde is a warlord dictatorship, Garrosh leads, but there is tension between the factions. Sylvanas, Vol'jin, Baine. But where are the Blood elves? Goblins have more going on with the faction than them and they just entered.

And the alliance on the other hand? It is a multi leader partnership (An Alliance funnily enough) excpet everything is about one leader. Where is the Gnome leader? Where are the dwarves? Where is Genn? Where is.... etc... its all this side show of.... well nothing at all.

The Alliance doesnt want one leader, it just wants leadership, from all factions, because that is what an Alliance is. Instead of trying to focus on that, the leadership of the faction, you focus on one person, who was shoe horned into the game through comics... yay?

Tyrande doesnt seem to care that Horde is taking Ashenvale. Malfurion is awake, but he may as well go back to sleep for all the good he is doing the NE. Gnomish leadership is stuck in new tinkertown giving starter quests to maintain a status quo. Velen is standing (Not even sitting! he is so old!) in exodar doing nothing at all outside of books which 99% of the userbase does not read. Genn is standing next to Varian, not even a unique model like his kick !@# worgen model in the official artwork, he isnt leading the war in the north to retake his freaking home after the undead killed his SON, took over southshore, plaguelands and what not, not even aiding the worgen resisetence. Dwarves are doing nothing, a few quests to show how dangerous the dark irons are. Did we get to see what happened to Varians son? The recoming of the dark irons into the dwarvish fold? No, it just happens, deal with it.

Where is the pride? Well, you dont give us any. Dont wonder why the Alliance doesnt feel pride for its faction, wonder why they would.

Destroy theramore, destroy a thousand theramores, delete stormwind if you want, but only if you can give us something to 'feel' something to get passionate about. (hint: just like horde couldnt get behind Garrosh, Alliance cannot get behind badly written characters, and Varian is one of those)
Edited by Gnomeopathy on 4/13/2012 5:03 PM PDT
90 Human Paladin
7490
@Gnomeopathy. Thank you, well said.
100 Pandaren Shaman
18805
Because Sentinels, Vindicators, etc, are their nation's protectors, not the Alliance's. Varian should not be able to move Sentinel forces. He should be only able to move 7th Legion and joint operation movements.


And that's why the Horde roll over them - they're not united. The seperate militaries of the Alliance should be connected.

Also, there is a title for the Alliance Military Leader. Its called Supreme Commander of Alliance Forces. Lothar was holding that title. Then Turalyon. "High King" sets a definite thematic difference.


Lothar and Turalyon were both commoners - not royal (despite Lothar's ancient bloodline). They needed a title, they called it Supreme Commander. Varian is royal. The duties are the same, the title is different.

Then stop calling it an Alliance. Because it won't be.


Why not? THe political side will still be fully independent - but when military forces are committed, as selected by the political side, then they have one commander.

You don't know what an Alliance is, do you? Putting one person in charge does not make an Alliance. Or do you think that one person led the Allied forces in WW2? Because there wasn't one clear cut leader. Winston, FDR and other political leaders all banded together and worked together, as equals. And they won.


Your WW2 example doesn't work: there was a supreme allied commander during WW2: Dwight D. Eisenhower. He didn't decide who sent what, but when he got mans and material, he controlled how and where it went. Much like how Varian will (however, as King, he also has a political say, but at least in my mind, no more then any other Alliance racial leader).

So you have no problem with a foreign nation leader taking control of another country's military? Because these are all countries. Not just races of the Alliance.


Not in times of war - and we're at war.

Canada and the USA are allied. What you're suggesting is, insteead of Canada offering support via troops and supplies, the USA just up and comandeers the Canadian military and takes control of them entirely.

Guess what? That isn't an Alliance.


If North America were invaded enmass, i would be shocked if Canada didn't allow US to use their military resources. But that's never happened. What has? During WWII Canada (Who, unlike WWI, had an independent foreign policy and could have chosen not to help) allowed their soldiers to be put under British command to be trained and used. Canadians still maintained their own severity, but when they choice came to where armies went, they Brits took Canadian soldiers and moved them. And BTW, they fought like champions. Sword was the hardest beach on D-Day, at least according to my dearly departed grandfather. :-)

Under the current system in WoW, you'd have Canadian outposts, British Castles, American camps, and no one could ask anything of anyone. And as pointed out: enemies have exploited that.

No more. Now one authority can use those committed resources.
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
04/13/2012 05:37 PMPosted by Wolfieone
And that's why the Horde roll over them - they're not united. The seperate militaries of the Alliance should be connected.


Oh hi, Seventh Legion.
04/13/2012 05:37 PMPosted by Wolfieone
Lothar and Turalyon were both commoners - not royal (despite Lothar's ancient bloodline). They needed a title, they called it Supreme Commander. Varian is royal. The duties are the same, the title is different.


Varian Wrynn: King of Stormwind and Supreme Commander of Allied Forces. Goodness, that wasn't hard at all.

04/13/2012 05:37 PMPosted by Wolfieone
Why not? THe political side will still be fully independent - but when military forces are committed, as selected by the political side, then they have one commander.


Right. So lets do away with the whole 'Alliance' name.

04/13/2012 05:37 PMPosted by Wolfieone
Your WW2 example doesn't work: there was a supreme allied commander during WW2: Dwight D. Eisenhower. He didn't decide who sent what, but when he got mans and material, he controlled how and where it went.


No, it does work. Eisenhower was in Lothar's position. He was GIVEN troops by allied forces and those troops were not merged into one big pot. British soldiers fought together, resulting in British victories. Canadian forces won Canadian victories.

04/13/2012 05:37 PMPosted by Wolfieone
Much like how Varian will (however, as King, he also has a political say, but at least in my mind, no more then any other Alliance racial leader).


And becoming part of the politics immediately changes the dyanmic.

04/13/2012 05:37 PMPosted by Wolfieone
Not in times of war - and we're at war.


War, always an excuse to strip the rights of others.

04/13/2012 05:37 PMPosted by Wolfieone
If North America were invaded enmass, i would be shocked if Canada didn't allow US to use their military resources. But that's never happened. What has? During WWII Canada (Who, unlike WWI, had an independent foreign policy and could have chosen not to help) allowed their soldiers to be put under British command to be trained and used. Canadians still maintained their own severity, but when they choice came to where armies went, they Brits took Canadian soldiers and moved them. And BTW, they fought like champions. Sword was the hardest beach on D-Day, at least according to my dearly departed grandfather. :-)


I'm Canadian. I know all of that except that Canada was still a commonwealth and while Canada did hold itself to be a sovereign nation, we still had (have) the Queen as our head of government. That is why we put ourselves in the hands of England. Because we are a commonwealth.

As for the USA and Canada bit. We'd fight with the US, not for the US. We wouldn't hand our troops over and say "Yeah, do what you want with them".

04/13/2012 05:37 PMPosted by Wolfieone
No more. Now one authority can use those committed resources.


One authority, stripping the flavor. Yay for being Horde lite.

Sorry, I'd rather get character development for each race and actually be unique. Not a Horde knockoff that answers to a single person.

Varian drops his title as king? He puts somebody else in charge of Stormwind? Fine, he can lead the Seventh Legion.

He shouldn't lead the Sentinels. Nor the Mountain Guard. Nor the Vindicators. Those are national armies, not devoted to the Alliance, but to their people.
10 Draenei Hunter
40
You know, race representation is remarkably easy to fix. In Alliance camps just have different race's as guards. So instead of just Human guards we have Night Elves, Dwarves Worgen etc. The same applies for quest givers and quest NPC's.

It's also not hard to have important lore figures spear heading a campaign in a zone. Why not have Muradin leading an Alliance force in the Karasong wilds? Why can't genn command a brigade in the four winds?

The problem with the Alliance is that for the longest time now it's been just "Humans and friends", make the other races feel as though they are part of the faction, not just little sidekicks. Make the Alliance actually feel like unified group instead of just having humans do everything. You've done this perfectly well with the Horde, each race is integrated very well, no reason you can't do the same for us.
90 Night Elf Rogue
11905
04/13/2012 06:12 PMPosted by Ida
You know, race representation is remarkably easy to fix. In Alliance camps just have different race's as guards. So instead of just Human guards we have Night Elves, Dwarves Worgen etc. The same applies for quest givers and quest NPC's.


Not really a 'viable' option. The Horde is a melting pot, so you have Tauren, Goblin, Trolls and Tauren all together. You see this in the EK a bit witht he Alliance, you see a fair few Gnomes and Dwarves in the human questing experience.

Night Elves and Draenei, are slightly more isolationist and 'out of the way'. Night Elves believe their forests are sacred and, ultimately, it is their land and nation. The Alliance has a history of having borders. After all, each race has their own nation, which they generally keep to.
100 Pandaren Shaman
18805
I'm Canadian. I know all of that except that Canada was still a commonwealth and while Canada did hold itself to be a sovereign nation, we still had (have) the Queen as our head of government. That is why we put ourselves in the hands of England. Because we are a commonwealth.

As for the USA and Canada bit. We'd fight with the US, not for the US. We wouldn't hand our troops over and say "Yeah, do what you want with them".


During WWI, Canada was part of the commonwealth and didn't have independent military. Britain controlled Canada's military. THey chose to work with Britain, British chose where military assets were used. THey worked together - an Alliance if you will - under single chosen commanders.

There's no Horde Light - it's just giving one person the military calls rather then a bunch of easily swayed minor commanders.

We've all ready seen him do it, BTW, in "Wolfheart". He took over the fight and won. He didn't turn into some petty tyrant during Cata did he?

Remember, we're not dealing with our world. We're dealing with a world of Kings and commoners - people in WoW bow to authority that we, in the west in 2012, would find appalling.
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