The New PvP Rogue - MOP

90 Human Rogue
2980
I remember the days when Assassination was the PvP spec and Subtlety was scorned. I remember the days when Ming pushed for Combat to be our dueling spec -- don't laugh, it worked. I remember the dominant days of HARP rogues. I was there the day Shadowstep was implemented.

Rogues have a long history of learning to adapt. We've discovered new, exciting ways to play our class throughout the history of WoW, we've broken ourselves again and again -- and when we were deemed overpowered and readjusted, we've always managed to find another potent playstyle.

Brothers and Sisters, that time is once again on the horizon.

In Mists of Pandarea, talents are being redesigned. This is all fine and good. However, we're faced with a shattering decision. Preparation - a version buffed from its current state - is directly competing with Shadowstep. We can't get both, and this is causing most people to panic.

Yes, it's a tough decision -- IF you're planning on trying to play the same way as you are now. You know, Shadowdance Subtlety. The only truly viable PvP spec.

But wait. Look to our past. At certain times, every single Rogue talent tree has been "the" PvP spec. Simply because Sub is our best now doesn't mean it has to be in MOP. I'm here today to show you my plans for the new PvP spec, because I believe Assassination is finally coming back -- in force.

http://mop.wowhead.com/mists-of-pandaria-talent-calculator#r!VL

This would be a dueling spec. I would change a few things about it for arenas, but that's not important right now. What's important is that I chose Preparation over Shadowstep.

Prep over Shadowstep? But how will be survive? Our mobility...

Yes, our mobility won't be as good as it is now. However, we need to recognize and take advantage of the fact that we now have ranged capabilities.

RANGED. CAPABILITIES.

Shuriken Toss is 20 energy and has the same base damage of FoK. It also adds a Combo Point. Go test FoK. Hits pretty hard, but doesn't give a CP and costs 35 energy. Now cut the energy cost nearly in half, and make it add a CP.

See where I'm going? Shuriken Toss is a powerful tool to use at range. It keeps a steady stream of damage going even as we're being kited. But here is where things get silly. Shuriken Toss is 20 energy for one CP. If it crits, that's 2 CP for 20 energy.

1 CP = 10 energy. Grats, that's the lowest CP/Energy ability in the whole game. And it has a 20 yard range.

Now consider this: all interrupts (kick included) are on a 15 second cooldown now. Except Deadly Throw -- which now has no minimum range. Yes, it's a 5 combo point Kick, but hey, if you're swimming in CP due to Shuriken Toss, it's to your benefit to interrupt that heal, that Mind Blast, that Cyclone. And keep in mind, this is all taking place UP TO THIRTY YARDS AWAY.

Considering our ranged capabilities, mobility isn't quite as important as it is currently. Yes, mobility always has been and always will be important, but the value has gone down. In exchange for Shadowstep we get Preparation. Prep and ranged capabilities? Yes, please.

So why Assassination? Why not Sub? Well, it's really up to you but allow me to explain my reasoning. Assassination loves DOTs. Garrote, Rupture, Deadly Poison, Venomous Wounds... and none of these things rely on distance. They're still doing their thing while you're being kited. So you open, apply your dots, and stick to your target. If they manage to blow some cooldowns and kite, you have three options:

1) Blow a CD of your own
2) Begin your ranged attack
3) Prep

Basically, Assassination is the spec that cares the least about being kited, yet has the energy regen from Venomous Wounds to spam Shuriken and Deadly Throw regularly. Dirty Tricks ensures that Blind is a legitimate option. A 15 yd ranged anti-kiting tool, a restealth, a full energy bar + gouge is a free 40 energy and another pseudo-interrupt. Vendetta + Shadowblades for your finisher. Better than Subtlety against heavy armor.

TLDR: Rogues now have powerful ranged attacks. When paired with Assassination DOTs and playstyle, plus a buffed version of Prep, I think Rogues will be fine. Not only that, I think this general playstyle will be the PvP spec of choice for Q4 2012 and beyond.
Edited by Tyrannate on 4/17/2012 10:14 AM PDT
Reply Quote
85 Human Rogue
7210
Wall of text crits for 100k! (X_x)Q--('.'Q)
Reply Quote
100 Worgen Rogue
14125
i guess I'd have to try it out before agreeing or disagreeing. interesting prediction though. the only thing that bugs me is the lack of slows. no deadly brew and you're taking leeching poisons means no crippling...
Reply Quote
100 Worgen Rogue
10765
I recently watched a video of a mutilate rogue dueling a warrior on the beta.

They were both only level 86, but the duel(s) still lasted far longer then your average duel currently as a rogue.

Its to early to say, but it appears MoP may be moving even farther away from burst then cata did in the beginning. I don't mind, because this would help specs with more ramp up time, and make paralytic poison even more useful.

04/17/2012 11:41 AMPosted by Snozyisback
You are an idiot if you think rogues wil be viable come MoP.


That seems a little harsh. Even specs like boomkin have a viable comp they can run.

Rogue may be weaker in MoP, or less viable, but it certainly will never be completely unviable.
Reply Quote
1 Human Rogue
0
That seems a little harsh. Even specs like boomkin have a viable comp they can run.

Rogue may be weaker in MoP, or less viable, but it certainly will never be completely unviable.


With how much rogues are losing even if we are viable it wont be FUN.Sorry if I wanted to be a damage bot I would level a warrior. Now you wont be able to tell a difference between a 1700 rogue and a 2400 rogue if the changes go through.
Reply Quote
90 Human Rogue
2980
no deadly brew and you're taking leeching poisons means no crippling...


Yes, but between Glyph of Debilitation, Deadly Throw and Preparation, plus the reduced need for mobility, we should be fine.

You are an idiot if you think rogues wil be viable come MoP.

The only reason people like Assas over Sub is because they are terrible and cant play/handle sub.


You began your post by calling me an idiot. You didn't engage my theory at all.

If you want to be listened to you should be respectful.
Edited by Tyrannate on 4/17/2012 12:06 PM PDT
Reply Quote
1 Human Rogue
0
04/17/2012 12:02 PMPosted by Tyrannate
You began your post by calling me an idiot. You didn't engage my theory at all.


You are commenting on a level 69 rogue

I HIGHLY doubt you have any 85 exp in rogue PvP and if you do I highly doubt its very high.

So after that Yes I will call you an idiot and not engage any "theory" by someone who has no idea what they are talking about.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
plus the reduced need for mobility


I demand an explanation for why you said this.
Reply Quote
1 Human Rogue
0
04/17/2012 12:06 PMPosted by Knocrogue
I demand an explanation for why you said this.


He hasnt pvped at 85 so he has no clue
Reply Quote
90 Human Rogue
2980
You are commenting on a level 69 rogue

I HIGHLY doubt you have any 85 exp in rogue PvP and if you do I highly doubt its very high.

So after that Yes I will call you an idiot and not engage any "theory" by someone who has no idea what they are talking about.


You're commenting on a level 1 character, so anything you say about the subject is irrelevant. As for my experience level, yes I've had quite a bit of level 85 arena experience as a Rogue, but that's not what this topic is about. This is about the upcoming expansion and its effects on our class, not the current situation.

Since things are changing so fundamentally in the next expansion, your guess isn't necessarily better than mine. If you'd like to challenge my claim that things are changing fundamentally, you can take the time to read my thread and post why you disagree.

I demand an explanation for why you said this.


I've already written about this in my initial post.
Edited by Tyrannate on 4/17/2012 12:15 PM PDT
Reply Quote
1 Human Rogue
0
04/17/2012 12:15 PMPosted by Tyrannate
You're commenting on a level 1 character,


My main, which a majority of this forum knows.

04/17/2012 12:15 PMPosted by Tyrannate
so anything you say about the subject is irrelevant.

Actually its ALOT more relevant.

04/17/2012 12:15 PMPosted by Tyrannate
As for my experience level, yes I've had quite a bit of level 85 arena experience as a Rogue,


Armory link?

04/17/2012 12:15 PMPosted by Tyrannate
but that's not what this topic is about. This is about the upcoming expansion and its effects on our class, not the current situation.


This topic is about rogues in MoP. Your current exp affects your interpretation of how rogues will be in MoP. So yes it does matter what your exp is.

04/17/2012 12:15 PMPosted by Tyrannate
Since things are changing so fundamentally in the next expansion, your guess isn't necessarily better than mine. If you'd like to challenge my claim that things are changing fundamentally, you can take the time to read my thread and post why you disagree.


AKA dumbing down rogues and giving them the warrior treatment so any terrible rogue "like you" can be awful and still have a chance.

04/17/2012 12:15 PMPosted by Tyrannate
I've already written about this in my initial post.


Where you are talking about assas.Even in MoP Assas is terrible and Sub is still better.
Edited by Snozyisback on 4/17/2012 12:20 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Rogue
2980
My main, which a majority of this forum knows.


Look, you've insulted me, told me I'm inexperienced when I'm not, and refuse to back up your statements with any reasoning. You're just an arrogant pinhead with an over-inflated ego and no substance. I don't care about your supposed fame or experience -- you've shown me nothing right now to impress me or to persuade me to give your opinion any respect. I don't feel obligated to provide any evidence of my claims to you, just as you've shown me nothing.

AKA dumbing down rogues and giving them the warrior treatment so any terrible rogue "like you" can be awful and still have a chance.


I really don't think that's happening. I think you're being melodramatic because you're scared for the future, and you think all change is bad.

Where you are talking about assas. Even in MoP Assas is terrible and Sub is still better.


Why?
Edited by Tyrannate on 4/17/2012 12:37 PM PDT
Reply Quote
1 Human Rogue
0
Look, you've insulted me, told me I'm inexperienced when I'm not, and refuse to back up your statements with any reasoning. You're just an arrogant pinhead with an over-inflated ego and no substance. I don't care about your supposed fame or experience -- you've shown me nothing right now to impress me or to persuade me to give your opinion any respect. I don't feel obligated to provide any evidence of my claims to you, just as you've shown me nothing.


I gave you an armory link backing up my exp. I know you dont have one thats why you wont post one. So literally anything you say has no bearing because you have 0 max level pvp exp.

I also dont care what some kid who has no exp takes my opinion seriously or not. Not to mention you cant even grasp what we are losing.

I really don't think that's happening at all. I think you're being really melodramatic because you're scared for the future, and you think all change is bad.


Think all you want, having talked with Nahj over the beta and loling at how bad rogues are...
Also I am not being melodramatic over a video game. Sorry you cant comprehend rogue pvp basics.
Reply Quote
90 Blood Elf Rogue
12970
Okay, after reading your post I see why. You need to consider some things.
Firstly, I should mention, FOK does provide a Combo Point if it hits your current CP target.

As for the damage in general. Since we can't test Toss, I can't say for sure. But, from what they have written down, I can get an idea that they don't want it to be a hard hitter. 6k is not high. After resilience, it'll be like 3500 damage. That's awful.
Deadly Throw also hits for the same.

Toss seems to be in the game now so Rogues have something to do while at range. We're a melee class and these ranged abilities will be utility, not damage.
Edited by Knocrogue on 4/17/2012 12:44 PM PDT
Reply Quote
100 Undead Rogue
9615
04/17/2012 12:18 PMPosted by Snozyisback
My main, which a majority of this forum knows.

It is often better to leave you mouth closed and appear to be a douchebag than to open it and remove all doubt. Whether or not your intention was to come in and sound like a total assbag your success at doing such was astounding. Maybe in the future there could be a more constructive discussion instead of just pouncing out of nowhere with a piss poor attitude and an elitist state of mind.

@ Tryannate
I agree with the majority of what you had to say and have been thinking along the same lines for a while now. Whether or not the issue with step and prep is ever resolved I believe Assassination is going to be a great PvP choice come MoP. I think that there may indeed be some mobility issues to deal with but it’s not going to be the end of the world, as a class we are great at adapting and we will continue to do so…

~cheers~
Edited by Dirtyjello on 4/17/2012 12:45 PM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Human Rogue
2980
I gave you an armory link backing up my exp. I know you dont have one thats why you wont post one. So literally anything you say has no bearing because you have 0 max level pvp exp.

I also dont care what some kid who has no exp takes my opinion seriously or not. Not to mention you cant even grasp what we are losing.


Your armory doesn't impress me. What impresses me is your ability to take your experience and apply it to your forum posts. So far you've shown that you can't do that. You're not telling me why I'm supposedly wrong, you're just saying I'm wrong.

I don't think you're correct. I think Rogues will be viable in MOP, at least when Assassination Rogues. Feel free to disagree, but you should provide something to give your opinion some weight, besides an armory link and "I'm better than you."

Also I am not being melodramatic over a video game. Sorry you cant comprehend rogue pvp basics.


I think you've being very melodramatic. Also, I know how to PvP as a Rogue - you'll just have to trust me in the same way that you're trusting me to believe your armory is legitimate, and not someone else's or someone else's work.

Toss seems to be in the game now so Rogues have something to do while at range. We're a melee class and these ranged abilities will be utility, not damage.


Absolutely. I don't think that Toss is meant to be taken for the damage. But it does deal approximately the same damage as FoK for nearly half the energy cost, and gives a combo point. Over the course of a fight, the damage could add up to be significant.

As I said before, mobility will always be important. We're not going to Shuriken Toss someone to death. But by building our Rogues in such a way as to downplay the importance of mobility and maximize our time at range, I think we'll be fine. In exchange for Shadowstep, we'll have Preparation - and a buffed version of it. Prep is an incredibly potent ability and also provides mobility, albeit on a long timer. But consider that Prep also has uses against other than mobility, such as allowing us to reuse Cloak and Evasion.
Edited by Tyrannate on 4/17/2012 12:53 PM PDT
Reply Quote

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]