Theramore Must Not Be Destroyed (Part 2)

69 Gnome Warrior
495
04/17/2012 06:49 AMPosted by Nashiri
My personal favourite zone was stonetalon peaks. Not an Alliance win by any stretch of the imagination but I felt INVOLVED in the story. It was exactly what development should have been. Experiencing the same story from two different perspectives. And yes, it made me WANT to kill Horde when the training grounds got nuked.


On alliance side, sure, Stonetalon was decent enough, even if it was so much recycling of wotlk quest mechanics. On horde side, you're forced to make a choice: leave the zone or do work for an obviously evil orc. I don't believe that was a good zone.
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90 Human Paladin
11990
I'm proud to be all gnome when it's time to crawl dungeons with my Alliance friends. I'm excited to represent goblins when it's time to collect bounties with my Horde friends. That said, my ultimate affinity is for my gnome and the Alliance, if not purely because that's how I ultimately jumped on the Warcraft train. :)

And I'm sure plenty of you out there would spit on both of those races. And -- since these words have never come back to bite anyone in the past -- I say bring 'em on.


Well jab someone with a stick till they give the gnomes gnomer back or something man :P
I'm not a gnome but it bothers me for them. Although I'd rather see the gnomes redesign or build a new gnomer.

For Gnomeregan!
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90 Troll Hunter
10125
Horde is all that matters really the Alliance are just there to make up the numbers and give us Horde something to do.

Now be quite and get back to being a background while we Horde get back to business.
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87 Worgen Druid
8215
After readying most of this topic, I think we can all agree that Illidan and Turalyon need to be brought back into story line. :-)

Turalyon dropped off the face of Outland. Him and and his band of Outland crusaders need to make a triumphant return to Azeroth.

And while Illidan's end may have been fitting, I don't believe that it truly was fitting for his character. It's Blizzard's world, they could make it happen.
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90 Human Paladin
11990
After readying most of this topic, I think we can all agree that Illidan and Turalyon need to be brought back into story line. :-)

Turalyon dropped off the face of Outland. Him and and his band of Outland crusaders need to make a triumphant return to Azeroth.

And while Illidan's end may have been fitting, I don't believe that it truly was fitting for his character. It's Blizzard's world, they could make it happen.


So long as it's not about more alliance hereos being made Neutral. I'm past sick of that.
How many major character do we have that sit neutral?
yet in the history of wow a single horde character was made neutral, for less than one expansion, and will then flip back to horde in mists. They've never flipped any of ours back. So tired of that.

Illidan, I've always though it just didn't fit the idea of him actually being nothing but evil.
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87 Worgen Druid
8215
So long as it's not about more alliance hereos being made Neutral. I'm past sick of that.
How many major character do we have that sit neutral?
yet in the history of wow a single horde character was made neutral, for less than one expansion, and will then flip back to horde in mists. They've never flipped any of ours back. So tired of that.

Illidan, I've always though it just didn't fit the idea of him actually being nothing but evil.


Illidan is another Arthas in a way. In the pursuit to save his people, he went to extreme measures which ultimately consumed him. I feel like the "un-corrupted" portion of his being could be reborn if done properly. But that is for another time...

Sadly, the Alliance has always had that mind-set of being all about defense and keeping the peace, and not necessarily offensive. So the fact that key leaders have been taking a neutral role is fitting. But everything has their limits.

*Incoming History reference*

The US needed Pearl Harbor to convince it's people to join the conflict. Were there people that wanted to enter the war? Absolutely, but they needed that final piece of the puzzle. Theramore could be the Alliance's Pearl Harbor.

Part of me wants older Alliance characters to make their way back into the story. Turalyon and the others who invaded Outlands fit the bill for bringing back that "tackle the problem" mentality that current Alliance leaders lack. Honestly, Jaina needs to grow a set and stop being all for piece. Her base is about to be wiped off the map. It's time for action.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
6935
04/17/2012 09:11 AMPosted by Atheistmonk
Ur right and I think that's funny too. The only reason belfs r Horde is because of alliance stupidity. But if it would make you more comfortable I can post with one of my other Horde races. I roll them all.


too dumb to qualify.. try again next year
if ur goin to insult someone u shud post wit ur main and if this is ur main u shud know that ur achievement points are showing noob
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
6935
i'm just sayin i think it's funny that's all and i'm not really serious about any of it. i like all the lore i think the self-contradictions are what make it so interesting without all the inner conflict and struggling against right and wrong, and mistakes and triumphs of both factions the story would be boring


Don't get me wrong, i like horde lore also, but the way it's been built and how the alliance re being turned into the supporting actors, makes me feel really dissapointed.

It's no rewarding at all.
i dont think that the alliance has turned into the supporting actors... like i said w/o the alliance half of this crap would'nt hav happened and there would be no game not even sure how u could argue that point i mean people get mad bout having to work with thrall but i just spent 2 hours doin the questline wit indiana jones and he yelled for the alliance everytime i talked to him and he's just one of several ally npcs we hav to deal with not to mention well of eternity which is the only dungeon i ever seem to q anymore so i spend half my time as a nelf
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
6935
I'd just like to say to anyone who thinks that blizz favors the horde..... Alliance racials are completely OP compared to Horde.. Sure, the reason is that all the pro players are Horde and they had to give yall somethin to even the odds but come on if anything blizz favors Alliance... XD let the nerdraging commence
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
6935
So long as it's not about more alliance hereos being made Neutral. I'm past sick of that.
How many major character do we have that sit neutral?
yet in the history of wow a single horde character was made neutral, for less than one expansion, and will then flip back to horde in mists. They've never flipped any of ours back. So tired of that.

Illidan, I've always though it just didn't fit the idea of him actually being nothing but evil.


Illidan is another Arthas in a way. In the pursuit to save his people, he went to extreme measures which ultimately consumed him. I feel like the "un-corrupted" portion of his being could be reborn if done properly. But that is for another time...

Sadly, the Alliance has always had that mind-set of being all about defense and keeping the peace, and not necessarily offensive. So the fact that key leaders have been taking a neutral role is fitting. But everything has their limits.

*Incoming History reference*

The US needed Pearl Harbor to convince it's people to join the conflict. Were there people that wanted to enter the war? Absolutely, but they needed that final piece of the puzzle. Theramore could be the Alliance's Pearl Harbor.

Part of me wants older Alliance characters to make their way back into the story. Turalyon and the others who invaded Outlands fit the bill for bringing back that "tackle the problem" mentality that current Alliance leaders lack. Honestly, Jaina needs to grow a set and stop being all for piece. Her base is about to be wiped off the map. It's time for action.
I agree totally with Von, I think that the Alliance is too defensive, save for King Varian Wrynn (or however u spell his name i don't roll any ally toons). The point is Von is right the allies need a fire lit under their @$$ bcuz this is Warcraft not Woodstock and the streets should run with blood, both Horde and Alliance and the only time we should ever truce is when it's time to kill Sargeras. Then when he's dead back to fighting!!!!! FOR THE WARCRAFT!!!!!! XD
Edited by Arturius on 4/19/2012 8:22 AM PDT
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85 Gnome Death Knight
4445
04/19/2012 08:08 AMPosted by Arturius
I'd just like to say to anyone who thinks that blizz favors the horde..... Alliance racials are completely OP compared to Horde.. Sure, the reason is that all the pro players are Horde and they had to give yall somethin to even the odds but come on if anything blizz favors Alliance... XD let the nerdraging commence


For God's sake, pay attention if you're going to post. PVP has less than nothing to do with what people are complaining about.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
6935
I'm proud to be all gnome when it's time to crawl dungeons with my Alliance friends. I'm excited to represent goblins when it's time to collect bounties with my Horde friends. That said, my ultimate affinity is for my gnome and the Alliance, if not purely because that's how I ultimately jumped on the Warcraft train. :)

And I'm sure plenty of you out there would spit on both of those races. And -- since these words have never come back to bite anyone in the past -- I say bring 'em on.


Well jab someone with a stick till they give the gnomes gnomer back or something man :P
I'm not a gnome but it bothers me for them. Although I'd rather see the gnomes redesign or build a new gnomer.

For Gnomeregan!
I don't think they should build a new Gnomeran I fervently believe that they should fix the old one somehow, not because I feel sorry for gnomes so much (no offense) It's more because ( and I think you can all agree with me on this) I hate that dungeon soooooo much and I never wanna c it again I mean cmon you can run MC faster than gnomeran
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
6935
I'd just like to say to anyone who thinks that blizz favors the horde..... Alliance racials are completely OP compared to Horde.. Sure, the reason is that all the pro players are Horde and they had to give yall somethin to even the odds but come on if anything blizz favors Alliance... XD let the nerdraging commence


For God's sake, pay attention if you're going to post. PVP has less than nothing to do with what people are complaining about.
I know that PVP has nothing to do with it and there's no reason to be rude i was just pointing out that there are some areas where blizz obviously does not favor the Horde. Not to mention plenty of people on this thread (including myself) have gotten way more off point than that.
Edited by Arturius on 4/19/2012 8:36 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Warrior
13840
Reposting a suggestion for Theramore from another thread.

Constructive suggestion about the destruction of Theramore? While I'd prefer it not be destroyed at all, and that the event be an assault on Theramore by the Horde which the Alliance rebuffs, how about this?

First, both sides should take part. Don't just make it an Alliance or Horde only event, but have quest chains which reflect the same events but from each side. Secondly, the quest lines should take into account all those difficulties which the Horde would face in attacking Theramore. The Alliance should be tearing up that highway they built so that the Horde can't use it. They should be assaulting the Horde on the narrow roads as they pass. The Horde should be having difficulty getting its siege engines to Theramore. They should be building makeshift bridges to replace the ones which the Alliance burned to the ground behind them, including building massive stone bridges between the mainland of Dustwallow Marsh to Theramore Isle, as the Alliance would've destroyed that main bridge, too. Every inch of ground which the Horde covers between the Southern Barrens and Theramore Isle should be a monstrously difficult struggle.

The event should feature important faction NPC's from both sides actively participating. Garrosh should definitely be present Horde side taking part in the battle and giving out quests, as he was already sizing up Theramore's defenses back in the WoW comic when he showed up there for a peace summit with Thrall and he was also personally present at the battle in Ashenvale in Wolfheart. Have Baine be involved as well, albeit reluctantly. Perhaps have him repay the favor that was done to his people at Camp Taraujo by letting Alliance citizens or captured soldiers escape.

Alliance side, aside from Jaina, Varian and Genn should be present as well. I'd love to see a cutscene or scripted moment as the three of them talk about what's happening, and Jaina is coming to grips with the reality that, despite everything, despite Varian bringing airships and more troops from Stormwind, and Genn bringing Worgen, that the Horde's throwing everything they have at Theramore and it's going to fall. Contrast her reaction to that knowledge with both Varian and Genn, who have witnessed the fall of their kingdoms to the Horde onslaught, and how heartwrenching it must be for them to see Jaina going through the same thing.

Despite the loss of Theramore being inevitable, as someone else pointed out on another one of these threads, the Horde's victory should be worse than defeat. The only way for the Horde to realistically defeat Theramore is for them to unleash the majority of their Kalimdor forces on Theramore. Varian's plan, then, should be for the Alliance to make the Horde pay a massive cost in blood for every inch of ground they take, all the while minimizing Alliance losses and being able to make their escape with most of their civilian population, soldiers, and equipment intact. That, then, would explain why the Horde are powerful enough to take Theramore but not so powerful that they can then lay siege to Darnassus or invade the Eastern Kingdoms. The cost in blood and the lives of Horde soldiers in conquering Theramore should be so high that the Kalimdor Horde will no longer be able to sustain an offensive in Ashenvale, much less go far beyond their own borders.

To that end I'd like to see Varian, Jaina, and Genn coordinating the bloody defense of Theramore. And most importantly, I want to see THE ALLIANCE in action in this battle. Not Stormwind, or Theramore, or Gilneas, but THE ALLIANCE!* I want Genn to send Alliance players out into the swamps of Dustwallow Marsh with Worgen packs to terrorize and assault Horde soldiers as they try to get through the swamps. I want to man a gun on a Gnomish fighter plane as Alliance air forces take on Horde air forces over Theramore. I want to defend Dwarven riflemen from being overrun by orc soldiers as they fire volley after volley into the onrushing Horde. And I want to see Varian Wrynn on Theramore's battlements commanding Stormwind, Theramore, Dwarf, Gnome, Gilnean (non-worgen humans, like the ones we saw in the Gilneas starter zone) and Worgen soldiers, all while hacking through orcs, trolls, and tauren, as Jaina reduces Horde soldiers and Horde siege engine alike to smoking ruin.

Mirror all of that with the Horde quest line. Help get the Horde siege engines through the swamp. Defend Horde supply caravans against Worgen sorties. Man the guns on Goblin fighter planes. Man a siege engine and batter down the walls of Theramore. Scale the battlements and attempt to break through the defenders raining fire on you from above.

And at the end of it all, when the Horde have finally broken through Theramore's defenses and Garrosh is inside, I want Jaina to be the one to face him. Not Varian, nor Genn, but Jaina as both Varian and Genn look on. And when I say she faces off against Garrosh I don't mean to fight him, either, but to deliver a promise to him that she would return. Her words shouldn't be the kind that you'd see Varian or Genn deliver, laden with threats of violence and fueled by testosterone. Just Jaina Proudmoore letting Garrosh know that he made a terrible mistake that day, and in due time he'd come to pay for it. And before Garrosh can attack she teleports the last of the Alliance forces out.

Wrap this up with Jaina, Varian, and Genn on an Alliance gunship with the Theramore fleet and the survivors of Theramore aboard those ships, crossing the ocean back to the Eastern Kingdoms. There should be a callback in the dialogue here to Wolfheart about what Varian says about how you sometimes have to let the prey run for a while. His point should be about how the Horde, in winning that battle, may have just lost the war as they expended so many resources to take Theramore that they may no longer be able to sustain any future offensives. Whereas the Alliance, while it lost a heavily fortified position on a strategic location, was able to make it out with most of its people and equipment intact.

Mirror that scene at the end of the Horde quest line. Garrosh is standing atop the smoking ruins of Theramore, surrounded by dead Horde soldiers, with Baine and maybe Vol'jin there criticising him for the massive number of lives which he sacrificed in order to achieve his victory, and how badly he weakened the Horde overall. (New addition to this post) This scene could be reminiscent to that in the Sylvannas short story in which she forsees a future without her in it and Garrosh sacrifices her best troops in order to achieve a pyrrhic victory in Gilneas.

* And if they really wanted to make it an epic event (and because I'd like to see all six Alliance races playing a role in these events), they could show us the consequences of that event right away by including another phased quest line in Ashenvale which ties into the events of Theramore. With Garrosh thinning out the Horde forces elsewhere in Kalimdor to launch his offensive on Theramore, Varian sends word to the Night Elves to launch an immediate counteroffensive against the Horde in Ashenvale. With the Draenei sticking around, and with the events of Wolfheart, he's likely spent months organizing a joint Night Elf/Draenei force. Once he knows about the attack on Theramore, he'd know that that would be the best time for that force to attack, so let's see the Night Elf Sentines and Draenei Legions marching side-by-side and push the Horde from Ashenvale once and for all. Let's have phased Horde quests in Ashenvale where they're not just fighting Night Elf Sentinels, but heavily armored Draenei soldiers who have a very strong dislike for the orc race. End the battle in Ashenvale once and for all with a joint Night Elf/Draenei force pushing the Horde out of Ashenvale permanently (And yes, while storywise the Horde would be out of Ashenvale for good, they can still quest there as they level up, as it's phased questing. If Sentinel Hill can end up burning for all time after a phased questing line, then so can Warsong Lumber Camp).

So this would end with a pyrrhic Horde victory and an optimistic Alliance defeat, and an Alliance victory and Horde defeat. That, IMO, wouldn't be a bad place at all to start Mists of Pandaria with despite the loss of Theramore.



...unfortunately, though, they'll probably just phase in the destruction of Theramore and that'll be the end of that.


Quick addendum to my last post: If Garrosh massively weakens the strength of the Kalimdor Horde in an assault on Theramore, that'd lead to a huge shift in the balance of power within the structure of the Horde itself, as the losses sustained in that battle wouldn't have affected the Forsaken OR the Blood Elves. So if Garrosh is no longer able to project as much power into the Eastern Kingdoms, how then does that affect his relationship with Sylvannas? How much stronger is her position now that Garrosh has lost a lot of his forces while Sylvannas is stronger than ever and can create new soldiers at her whim?


As a career Horde player (been playing since Vanilla and never played Alliance side save for a Draenei at the start of TBC just to see the starter zones) I have three words in response.

MAKE... THIS... HAPPEN

This is the kind of compelling immersive lore-rich story-telling that is missing from the vast majority of major universally (regarding key events affecting both factions) impactful questlines.

This is beautifully story boarded. It gets the primary objective accomplished in a way that is believable in the current timeframe of the story, the characters are all marvelously IN CHARACTER on both sides, and it opens the door for further dynamic and interesting story-telling and environmental changes that are long long overdue in stagnant areas (the whole Ashenvale conflict is just tired and boring despite the so-called "changes" in Cata).

This is the kind of story-telling ability that the actual writers at Blizzard are lacking.
Edited by Mookosh on 4/19/2012 8:54 AM PDT
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8025
04/19/2012 01:57 AMPosted by Aghator
Who is Theramore? And why you care if he dies anyway?


He's the guy in Mario with a gun for an arm. We're mad cause the Horde kills him right before he can tell us which one was G.I. Joe,and he was the only one who knew because Joe gave him his gun arm.
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85 Gnome Death Knight
4445
For God's sake, pay attention if you're going to post. PVP has less than nothing to do with what people are complaining about.
I know that PVP has nothing to do with it and there's no reason to be rude i was just pointing out that there are some areas where blizz obviously does not favor the Horde. Not to mention plenty of people on this thread (including myself) have gotten way more off point than that.


Apologies; I'm so used to seeing Horde posters completely missing the point that they're starting to blend together.

However, the Alliance having a slight advantage in one aspect of the game doesn't make it 'balanced' to completely shaft them in a different aspect of it. I, for one, don't see the benefit of our PVP advantage because I don't PVP. On the other hand, I do, like pretty much every other character in the game, have to level, and halfheartedly throwing together that leveling experience in favor of the Horde's leveling experience is something that affects far more people.
Edited by Mekkadeth on 4/19/2012 9:00 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
6935

I know that PVP has nothing to do with it and there's no reason to be rude i was just pointing out that there are some areas where blizz obviously does not favor the Horde. Not to mention plenty of people on this thread (including myself) have gotten way more off point than that.


Apologies; I'm so used to seeing Horde posters completely missing the point that they're starting to blend together.

However, the Alliance having a slight advantage in one aspect of the game doesn't make it 'balanced' to completely shaft them in a different aspect of it. I, for one, don't see the benefit of our PVP advantage because I don't PVP. On the other hand, I do, like pretty much every other character in the game, have to level, and halfheartedly throwing together that leveling experience in favor of the Horde's leveling experience is something that affects far more people.
I can agree with the fact that leveling affects far more people than pvp and the storyline may lean more to the Horde right now.. the point can be argued either way. But my main arguement with posters in this thread is kinda off point and that's the peeps that are cryin bout havin to work with Thrall cuz as I've said multiple times in response to them (not you in particular) we have to work with Alliances npc's just as much. Sure nobody as important to the story as Thrall other than The Well of Eternity dungeon and Hyjal quests, but I think it's fitting that the Alliance has to play nice with Thrall for a change since they did imprison him as a slave and he is one of the only Horde npcs to ever want nothing but peace, in fact he seems to be very friendly with a lot of major Alliance npcs like Jaina and Malfurion. Forgive me because I know this is off the main point but the arguement was started way back in the thread by someone else and the point kinda irked me. Also the pvp comment was kind of a joke. Both sides say that blizz favors the other in pvp and both sides say the same thing about the storyline basically. And that was the point I was trying to make sorry for being vague, I figured that an Ally would respond arguing that Horde had the best racials and that would've made the point better.
Edited by Arturius on 4/19/2012 9:14 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
6935
04/19/2012 08:56 AMPosted by Kaganfindel
Who is Theramore? And why you care if he dies anyway?


He's the guy in Mario with a gun for an arm. We're mad cause the Horde kills him right before he can tell us which one was G.I. Joe,and he was the only one who knew because Joe gave him his gun arm.
ROFL nice Kaganifidel... 2 thumbs up
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90 Human Warlock
6865
Kelleigh
85 Human Paladin
Avengers of the Fallen
7735


After readying most of this topic, I think we can all agree that Illidan and Turalyon need to be brought back into story line. :-)

Turalyon dropped off the face of Outland. Him and and his band of Outland crusaders need to make a triumphant return to Azeroth.

And while Illidan's end may have been fitting, I don't believe that it truly was fitting for his character. It's Blizzard's world, they could make it happen.So long as it's not about more alliance heroes being made Neutral. I'm past sick of that.
How many major character do we have that sit neutral?
yet in the history of wow a single horde character was made neutral, for less than one expansion, and will then flip back to horde in mists. They've never flipped any of ours back. So tired of that.

Illidan, I've always though it just didn't fit the idea of him actually being nothing but evil.


While on the whole and large I agree with all of the initial points presented in the MAIN argument, Horde Bias, I would like to point out that we did get a neutral character, Thassarian from WOTLK... oh wait was he neutral? Oh yah and Herde got Koltira... and then when they met in Andorhal the Alliance, lost, oh yah now I remember.

WORLD OF HORDECRAFT FOREVER!!!!
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85 Troll Hunter
12160
All this talk about how Blizz favors one faction over the other is total garbage. I had to spend one instance as a human back in BC and another instance as a freakin moon hugging night elf in Cata! In how many instances have Alliance players actually been forced to be orcs or trolls? Wait what's that? ZERO! Come on, give it up! If anything Blizz favors the Alliance.
Edited by Gravy on 4/19/2012 10:38 AM PDT
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