Theramore Must Not Be Destroyed (Part 2)

90 Draenei Shaman
11990
Give me some examples. Unless you have done the Horde quest, you may not understand. He doesn't want Sylvanas bringing people back to life. He was pissed about that orc in Stontalon blowing up that tree. Hell he killed him.


To be honest I have more reason to kill Garrosh as a Horde character than an Alliance. Sending my toons on suicide missions and then making the Horde vulnerable to an assault by Deathwing because he wanted to try and kill some Alliance forces? Yeah I think my troll toon will enjoy killing him.

Also he may not have approved of Sylvanas method but he didnt do a thing to stop it.

Making you get morrowgrain to keep the Archdruid before him in a coma isn't evil at all!


During Vanilla there were quite ambiguous about it. For all we knew in Vanilla Fandral was just planning on using the morrowgrain for something else.

Whose loyalty you gain by killing bugs.
You guys got the greatest necropolis of the Lich King, we got bugs.


Those "bugs" happened to also be one of the Scourge more powerful forces. And lead by Anubarak who was probable just slightly less powerful than Kel'thusad.

Until we see it she's still neutral much like the corrupted Draenei in BT.


Storywise she is not neutral and is probable on the hit list of the Alliance.
Edited by Zerde on 4/16/2012 7:07 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
aus
18560
04/16/2012 06:38 PMPosted by Layam
How many Alliance leaders have been lost?


Did you forget the little bit about being frozen in ice/diamond forever? That we didnt even find out the lore about until the holiday event?

04/16/2012 06:38 PMPosted by Layam
Go do Dragonblight as Alliance then as Horde.


I loved the dragonblight quest-lines as horde, Fantastic Horde pride, that buggy questline where you go to undercity as alliance and die half a dozen times? Not so much. I never had a single run through where I joined at the start and did'nt miss parts because I was dead due to a 1 shot. Let alone getting stuck with Hostile npc's both behind and in front, listening to the yells to tell you when it will be over.Zaryhm you make some good points, and a number of these issues I have understood with for months, But I had decided that for MOP I would go 1-60+ as horde before switching to alliance just because you made it a much better experience.
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85 Gnome Warlock
5540
while also building upon the larger story that's sure to span many more expansions and even new games (hopefully) down the road.


Nooooo! Don't stop there. SPILL THE BEANS!
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90 Night Elf Druid
0
Anyone else feel like Zarhym's post is a total posterior-pull meant to dazzle Alliance players with sparkly words and make us feel like MoP isn't going to be a total dump for us?



Thats EXACTLY what I thought.
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90 Night Elf Rogue
8275
Ok so....I dont think blue is out to design the story or game bias towards one side...to think they actually go out of their way to say "How can we screw the alliance today" is asine.

However, I do think that recently the alliance has...well gotten the short end of the lore stick.

Thrall, Garrosh, Vol,Jin, Sylvannas all those major horde shakers movers and leaders have been doing something or at least have been hinted at doing something since the end of wrath and through cata. (Plague, Leaving the horde, Becoming warchief, plotting to kill the warchief, etc.)

On the alliance side...not so much.

Varian has stayed largely static since...well...ever. Genn Valen, and Tyrande have all but dropped off the face of the world (of warcraft) in terms of "screen time" in current time (yes there were instances that starred those chars....set in the past). The Dwarf council despite what should have been a major dwarven political shake up has....been largely ignored in the grand scheme of things.

The alliance simply does not have anything going on, and I think when creating these stories its just common to brach off of what is happening currently....and what is happening currently is a lot of Horde issues. Thus (though no intentionally I believe) alliance has kinda been riding shotgun for a while.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5735
You know what, give them Orgrimmar, no seriously give the Alliance Orgrimmar.

Make Echo Isles an orcish/troll city(With proper barriers to protect lowbies)

I'm willing to bet the Alliance still shat themselves about Horde Bias.
Edited by Layam on 4/16/2012 7:05 PM PDT
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85 Worgen Druid
14340
i got anidea if u want horde to destroy theramore ? then give us the last human kingdom back give us the one kingdom that will help out the alliance in sea battle give us Kul Tiras NAVY
Edited by Wørgenfreemn on 4/16/2012 7:06 PM PDT
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85 Worgen Rogue
13435
04/16/2012 06:24 PMPosted by Zarhym
Now enter Mists development. For months now we've been listening to the Alliance concerns on all types of matters, from lore, to faction pride, to populations, to behavior at BlizzCon, etc. And so many of them are legitimate. We've taken a lot of this to heart while developing the next expansion, while also building upon the larger story that's sure to span many more expansions and even new games (hopefully) down the road.


I gotta say...of all the posts you've done lately this is the one that...kinda make more sense now. Of all the posts here I've seen lately this is by far the most level-headed, and definitely appreciated one by yours truly.

I still have my doubts. Many of them. I still may hold grudges, no matter how irrational I know them to be...which is one of the best, and worst things of Warcraft. Something capable of involving one so and then seeing it dissapoint in many aspects is...quite disheartening.

As inflamed an passionate Night Elven/Alliance fan that I am I hope for the best for those I root for. When they continuously get beaten, then I wonder "What's going on here?". It's easy to simply point this out and call it "Favoritism". Some might say it would be easier to ignore it, but when it's something you like it's...harder to make that disconnection. I understand that it's way harder to 'fix' this, much less in the short term, but reassuring words every now and then, like this post, they...help. For a change.

I don't know what else to say. But...keep up these kinda posts...please?
Edited by Ilthen on 4/16/2012 7:10 PM PDT
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90 Human Rogue
7010
04/16/2012 06:58 PMPosted by Valerìe


Torture, murder, genocide, slavery, ecocide, biological warfare, deliberate targeting of civilians, conquest, more murder, suggested sexual assault/abuse, weapons of mass destruction...

Really, did you just not play the 1-60?


Give me some examples. Unless you have done the Horde quest, you may not understand. He doesn't want Sylvanas bringing people back to life. He was pissed about that orc in Stontalon blowing up that tree. Hell he killed him.

Just give me some examples of this cause I haven't seen any of this while doing the 1-60 quest.


I don't think anyone wants Sylvanas bringing people back to life, just saying.

He was pissed at the Orc in Stonetalon because he claimed to be following the Warchief's command (i.e. indirectly saying Garrosh killed those innocent druids).

Being a fan of the overall story, I could care less which Blizzard favors, however if you think Garrosh doesn't deserve to die at this point I think you may need to roll a new toon and look at the quest text instead of picking a green and moving on.
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90 Night Elf Druid
9290
Just want to add, I do agree with points the Op has made, but Zarhym has really made an effort to reconcile for it.
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90 Human Paladin
aus
18560
04/16/2012 07:00 PMPosted by Layam
The Thrall short story talks about Magni defending the Dwarven Homeland


For those that never read it, mind telling us which short story?
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85 Human Paladin
9180
If you're still following this topic Zarhym, let me ask one thing.

Have you guys heard the outcry from the Alliance about how they don't care for Thrall and don't want to follow him? And if yes, are you taking this into account when looking towards the Siege of Orgrimmar?

I don't want to follow Thrall, and I don't want to help him get his throne back. I'm besieging Orgrimmar because the Horde and Garrosh are my enemies, and I want to bring them to justice. The leadership of the Horde isn't my concern.

The Siege of Orgrimmar is the last raid of Mists and Mists isn't even out yet. So I don't want SoO to roll around and have to help Thrall only for you guys to say "oh, we didn't know, we'll fix it next time". You have enough advance warning right now that it better not happen.
Edited by Katarn on 4/16/2012 7:09 PM PDT
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04/16/2012 06:24 PMPosted by Zarhym
Now enter Mists development. For months now we've been listening to the Alliance concerns on all types of matters, from lore, to faction pride, to populations, to behavior at BlizzCon, etc. And so many of them are legitimate. We've taken a lot of this to heart while developing the next expansion, while also building upon the larger story that's sure to span many more expansions and even new games (hopefully) down the road.


This is the type of post that I have been wanting to see. Thank you, Zarhym. This gives me a basis for optimism.
Edited by Khaki on 4/16/2012 7:08 PM PDT
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85 Worgen Rogue
13435
04/16/2012 07:07 PMPosted by Mate
For those that never read it, mind telling us which short story?


He probably refers to 'Charge of the Aspects'

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/game/lore/short-story/charge-aspects/1

Where something that's impossible to not think of as Magni Bronzebeard appears.
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90 Draenei Shaman
11990
You know what, give them Orgrimmar, no seriously give the Alliance Orgrimmar.


If they did they you wont get a peep out of me anymore. However as long as the "Thrall become warchief again", I think any thought about the Siege of Ogrimmar will be met with annoyance(maybe not just by the Alliance but also people who dislike Thrall).
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90 Worgen Rogue
16720
04/16/2012 07:05 PMPosted by Wørgenfreemn
i got anidea if u want horde to destroy theramore ? then give us the last human kingdom back give us the one kingdom that will help out the alliance in sea battle give us Kul Tiras NAVY


Bah, Kul Tiras will probably be neutral.

After Thrall uses his Earth-Warder powers to dredge it from the bottom of the sea and Sylvanas raises all of their dead as Forskaen for herself. Oh, and don't forget the Naga that probably live there totally join the Horde, too, because why not?
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85 Goblin Warlock
11945
To be honest I have more reason to kill Garrosh as a Horde character than an Alliance. Sending my toons on suicide missions and then making the Horde vulnerable to an assault by Deathwing because he wanted to try and kill some Alliance forces? Yeah I think my troll toon will enjoy killing him.

Also he may not have approved of Sylvanas method but he didnt do a thing to stop it.


LOL I agree with that. He seems to be a very impatient and crazy leader.

What I wasn't understanding is the person I quoted said Garrosh did all those things but I don't remember him doing them. To me some of the things he says and does just gives me mix feelings. Like at the ed of the Stontalon quest, I got a lot of respect for him but then using your example, he sends off all our protection to attack allies and opens us up to DW and I'm like wtf... you crazy?!
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90 Troll Shaman
5420
04/16/2012 06:59 PMPosted by Ferlion
Ahh, the only Troll I'll suffer to live. Welcome to the party.

:P

Anyhow, I've long been in the "wait and see" group in dealing with perceived factional imbalances. Providing feedback and criticism is one perfectly reasonable thing to do, but I've been getting kinda miffed at people on either side for whom every other thing is a slight against them personally.

Yeah, most of those have been on the Alliance-side as of late, but there're people who tend to forget that Blizzard probably doesn't want to deliberately alienate half its playerbase, so the accusations tend to get blown way out of proportion.
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87 Human Paladin
11610
im happy to wait and see what blizzard has in store for the Alliance, but after doing allot of the first zone in Pandaria i dont really see the promised changes blizzard said were coming, perhaps what blizzard sees as a great story is different from the playerbase? So far Mists of Pandaria looks even MORE horde focused than Cataclysm :(
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You act as though I don't think there's any disconnect at all, or that all complaints from Alliance players about perceived story imbalances between factions are baseless.

These are fallacies which, as with this one below from you, I was initially biting my thumb at in my post you quoted.

The frustrating thing, though, is that you haven’t just received criticism, but constructive criticism as well. Plenty of people have offered copious amounts of suggestions since even before the release of Cataclysm, and you’ve ignored every single one.

You do everyone on the forums, yourself included, a disservice by making the leap in logic that, because we didn't act upon feedback submitted to us, we ignored it. Many of the suggestions you referenced in your post would've been pretty massive undertakings toward further redesigning the 1-60 experience in Cataclysm. From your point of view, and given how you feel about Alliance design, it's probably a pretty easy call. The decision should've been to make those changes to better flesh out the Alliance and, in particular, worgen story.

But we don't get to do this over, so we have to look at it from a pragmatic standpoint. Regardless of what we know today, it still would've been an incredible risk back then to delay the expansion, just to further redo the 1-60 experience to ensure the Alliance portion cannot be seen as anything other than equivalent (at least) to the Horde portion, in terms of quality. This is not to mention that, to a sadly large extent, the revamp of the 1-60 experience went pretty unnoticed to the average player. The average player has been more concerned about a lack of content at level 85 than what zone story lines ended more in favor of the Horde than vice versa.

And since we weren't going to change the expansion's story partway through purely based on the concern that players didn't feel Thrall was a neutral enough character, we went ahead with our plan.

Now enter Mists development. For months now we've been listening to the Alliance concerns on all types of matters, from lore, to faction pride, to populations, to behavior at BlizzCon, etc. And so many of them are legitimate. We've taken a lot of this to heart while developing the next expansion, while also building upon the larger story that's sure to span many more expansions and even new games (hopefully) down the road.

But then these valid concerns get whittled away and almost lose their meaning as they're put on this tit-for-tat list, where they're used as emotional leverage. And suddenly every little piece of information that comes out regarding future content gets ripped apart to determine exactly where our true motivations and biases lay. It actually increases the social divide between players, inflames the loudest people on both sides of the aisle, and prevents us from getting any reasonable word in edgewise without being cut down for our perceived ignorance in all matters relating to Alliance player wants/needs, if not our malicious attempt to outright make the Horde the cooler faction by story and design.

While both sides have done some pretty great and pretty terrible things in the stories past, there's a reason we don't make one the definitively evil or definitely good side (don't point to a few moments on a recent timeline to refute this point -- I'm talking big picture). Playing with friends aside, it's still a goal of ours to make sure that you're playing whatever faction and race you think is coolest, or which one you identify with or enjoy most. To think we're actively designing the game any other way is to get caught up in this debate so much so that you lose sight of what the game is all about.

I'm proud to be all gnome when it's time to crawl dungeons with my Alliance friends. I'm excited to represent goblins when it's time to collect bounties with my Horde friends. That said, my ultimate affinity is for my gnome and the Alliance, if not purely because that's how I ultimately jumped on the Warcraft train. :)

And I'm sure plenty of you out there would spit on both of those races. And -- since these words have never come back to bite anyone in the past -- I say bring 'em on.


This should bring the discussion to a halt because he is absolutely right, and to anyone who argues with him on this then you have missed the point entirely and you're just arguing for arguing's sake.
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