Strength of stuns

100 Troll Rogue
21875
Cut the duration and cut the cd on the stuns. The stuns themselves aren't powerful from an outside perspective, but what people are saying is the duration is too long to where towards the end of an expansion you're getting wrecked inside of a stun.

If you cut the cd along with the duration it's a slight nerf, but still the same net result. Honestly I think it would be fine with a 50% cd reduction with a 40% duration reduction which is in the long run equal even though it seems like a buff.

I swear I have a feeling of deja vu even typing this right now. I'm too lazy to do a forum search.

Its an interesting idea but it would need a fair amount of work. KS in particular would become a completely different spell with this change. 5cps for a 3.6 second stun may not be worth it in many situations. A 10 second CD KS would probably be used primarily as an extra interrupt and would make rogues into even more of the premier caster lockdown class.
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100 Human Death Knight
15245
04/16/2012 09:13 AMPosted by Purebalance
As the expansion progresses, burst begins to increase even more due to scaling with gear to where end of expansion time, stuns become far too strong with their durations. However in the grand scheme of things they really aren't that strong outside of a burst scenario to justify a direct nerf to stuns. The only logical solution is a reduction to cd and duration since the duration is a big part of the 100-20% in a stun factor. The only other possible solution is to make stuns break on 40% hp damage done.


No, that's not the only logical solution. A much more logical solution would be to have gear scale players the same amount defensively as it does offensively. This means that stuns and burst damage at the start of an expac are exactly as effective as they are at the end of one assuming that both players have equal gear.

Fiddling with the duration and cd of all stuns without addressing the real issue is pointless.
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85 Troll Shaman
6230
Reduce duration of Stuns, Reduce duration of Fear/sap/sheep/blind, and increase DR.

Nerf Damage, Nerf Healing.


I wonder how long you've been playing to make that comment. I remember a time when sap and sheep lasted their full duration on players.
Edited by Oruzu on 4/17/2012 6:46 AM PDT
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85 Dwarf Paladin
10395
How about just purchasing a PvP trinket? Is that really so hard?
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90 Human Paladin
9020
04/17/2012 06:53 AMPosted by Malrick
How about just purchasing a PvP trinket? Is that really so hard?


Cooldown on stuns is much lower than the cooldown on PvP trinket. Nobody who PvPs seriously will do so without a PvP trinket or EMFH. Even people who don't PvP seriously will have them.

I won't say that I agree or disagree that stuns are too good. In a game where burst is absolutely out of control and people are getting killed in the duration of a stun, yes, stuns are too good. I've been watching (yes, watching, I don't do arenas seriously enough to get to higher MMRs these days) streams a lot lately just to see what's going on. I see absolutely nothing but people forcing trinket/defensive cooldowns in their openers and then using their own cooldowns again before trinket/defensive cooldowns come back up and absolutely destroying people. Getting hit for 35-40k on almost every hit while unable to react at all gets frustrating no matter who you are.

At this point I would much rather see a few things than see stuns and CCs get nerfed:
I would like for resilience to get buffed higher to tone down the ridiculous burst we're seeing from many classes. I would like for MS effects to go back to ~50% so that current burst healing doesn't out-pace the reduction of burst damage. And finally, the removal of over the top PvE trinkets (and weapons) from any sort of rated PvP.

If damage was any lower currently, nobody would be able to kill a target who is getting healed, and healers would be absolutely immortal. The problem though is damage and healing are both too good right now. Lower burst, lower healing burst, and I'm pretty sure life would be happier for everybody. We wouldn't be seeing games lasting 5-10 seconds a piece, and they also wouldn't last overly long in most cases.
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80 Blood Elf Paladin
0
http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/34/Flame-Flame_on.jpg
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85 Worgen Warlock
5770
Ask yourself in that moment as you're sitting there with 3-4 players beating on you, while your stunned, how you feel about it? Personally if I'm forced through all my CD's and then the smoke-bomb kidney into HOJ rotation drops on me I'm not content to say gg.

A chain of CC to control other players from helping you is one thing, but a chain of CC preventing you from helping yourself is un-fun and poor design that needs addressed.
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85 Dwarf Paladin
10395
Pardon me for rambling a bit, but bet me see if I understand this correctly Aeryon. You believe that if you have 3-4 opposing players beating on you that you should, under any circumstances, live? It is not stuns that are the problem- it is that you let 3-4 other players beat on you at all, or even get close enough to beat on you.

From a paladin-centric point of view, if I hit you with my HOJ, which lasts 6 seconds, and I have the longest global cool down in the game at 1.5 seconds, that means that I can hit you a total of 3 times at most. But most abilities have longer cool downs than the GcD, like crusader strike that has a 4.5sec cool down (or my 3.6 sec swing timer). So I might hit you twice in a stun. I will certainly not be taking you 100 to 0 in one unless I am extremely lucky and you have major debuffs on you.

Now I agree that stuns are out of control, but only from certain classes (rogues at the forefront). If anything, HoJ needs a shorter cool down for some sort of parity- one minute is just too damn long. For instance last night I was chain stunned by two rogues in WsG that took me 100 to 0 in less than 3 seconds with my trinket on cool down because I used it to get out of a sap. And carrying the flag I can't bubble. But then again it was two on one and the rogues were obviously working together, so props to them. However, if I had my trinket off cool down it would not have mattered due to the instantly reapplied poison.

Blizzard has washed it's collective hands of this disaster expansion and will not be making any changes to balance PvP for anyone.

Edit: and having made that statement, I dearly wish that Blizzard will not hand out PvP titles and awards this season considering how grossly imbalanced it has been. I would never be a candidate for them myself, but this junk just seems very unfair at the moment.
Edited by Malrick on 4/17/2012 10:37 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Priest
0
Cut the duration and cut the cd on the stuns. The stuns themselves aren't powerful from an outside perspective, but what people are saying is the duration is too long to where towards the end of an expansion you're getting wrecked inside of a stun.

If you cut the cd along with the duration it's a slight nerf, but still the same net result. Honestly I think it would be fine with a 50% cd reduction with a 40% duration reduction which is in the long run equal even though it seems like a buff.

I swear I have a feeling of deja vu even typing this right now. I'm too lazy to do a forum search.

Its an interesting idea but it would need a fair amount of work. KS in particular would become a completely different spell with this change. 5cps for a 3.6 second stun may not be worth it in many situations. A 10 second CD KS would probably be used primarily as an extra interrupt and would make rogues into even more of the premier caster lockdown class.


Yeah, won't happen. That's what happened with maim in wotlk ( pvp glove bonus used to make interupt casts), and they took it away. People using it at 1 cp as an interupt.

People would probably just use deadly throw instead (which needs to be nerfed as it is).
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85 Worgen Warlock
5770
Pardon me for rambling a bit, but bet me see if I understand this correctly Aeryon. You believe that if you have 3-4 opposing players beating on you that you should, under any circumstances, live? It is not stuns that are the problem- it is that you let 3-4 other players beat on you at all, or even get close enough to beat on you.

From a paladin-centric point of view, if I hit you with my HOJ, which lasts 6 seconds, and I have the longest global cool down in the game at 1.5 seconds, that means that I can hit you a total of 3 times at most. But most abilities have longer cool downs than the GcD, like crusader strike that has a 4.5sec cool down (or my 3.6 sec swing timer). So I might hit you twice in a stun. I will certainly not be taking you 100 to 0 in one unless I am extremely lucky and you have major debuffs on you.

Now I agree that stuns are out of control, but only from certain classes (rogues at the forefront). If anything, HoJ needs a shorter cool down for some sort of parity- one minute is just too damn long. For instance last night I was chain stunned by two rogues in WsG that took me 100 to 0 in less than 3 seconds with my trinket on cool down because I used it to get out of a sap. And carrying the flag I can't bubble. But then again it was two on one and the rogues were obviously working together, so props to them. However, if I had my trinket off cool down it would not have mattered due to the instantly reapplied poison.

Blizzard has washed it's collective hands of this disaster expansion and will not be making any changes to balance PvP for anyone.

Edit: and having made that statement, I dearly wish that Blizzard will not hand out PvP titles and awards this season considering how grossly imbalanced it has been. I would never be a candidate for them myself, but this junk just seems very unfair at the moment.


This is exactly the time to have some things fixed and adjusted and it is quit common to have 3 or more players pumping damage into you during any rated match. The reason I bring up rated matches is that this is the stated balancing ground currently and is no longer arenas.

I both expect to see the mechanic addressed and to see a solution implemented as the strength of not only CC but specifically stuns will now be preeminent as we move toward a CD based dispel system.

It's simple to look for solutions in the current expansions climate, but consider with me the new climate that will strengthen something that is arguably already too strong. Both magical and melee based stuns should break on damage. I would include the warrior improved hamstring in the list as any root should break on damage.
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90 Orc Warrior
0
Stuns aren't spammable and generally have a healthy CD or damage tradeoff attached to them, so where's the problem?

04/15/2012 08:44 PMPosted by Wintel
When 2 people start wailing on your health, you can essentially be KO'd

Where's the problem? It's 2v1. If you're expecting to win, then there's a problem.

EDIT: @OP, I can see you have a problem with rogues in particular. Complain about them instead.
Edited by Bamf on 4/17/2012 12:31 PM PDT
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85 Worgen Warlock
5770
Stuns aren't spammable and generally have a healthy CD or damage tradeoff attached to them, so where's the problem?

When 2 people start wailing on your health, you can essentially be KO'd

Where's the problem? It's 2v1. If you're expecting to win, then there's a problem.

EDIT: @OP, I can see you have a problem with rogues in particular. Complain about them instead.


You're assuming because I'm posting on a warlock that I"m complaining about rogue 1v1. I want to make it clear to you I have every class max level and feel the strength of stuns is too powerful in a rated battleground situation with the new dispel system being implemented.
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100 Troll Rogue
21875
Yeah, won't happen. That's what happened with maim in wotlk ( pvp glove bonus used to make interupt casts), and they took it away. People using it at 1 cp as an interupt.

People would probably just use deadly throw instead (which needs to be nerfed as it is).

On beta DT only interrupts at 5cps. No one will have to worry about DT interrupts.
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90 Tauren Druid
7615
Ask yourself in that moment as you're sitting there with 3-4 players beating on you, while your stunned, how you feel about it? Personally if I'm forced through all my CD's and then the smoke-bomb kidney into HOJ rotation drops on me I'm not content to say gg.

A chain of CC to control other players from helping you is one thing, but a chain of CC preventing you from helping yourself is un-fun and poor design that needs addressed.


you are not making any sense here. 3-4 players coordinated players should have you cc'd till you drop.


I both expect to see the mechanic addressed and to see a solution implemented as the strength of not only CC but specifically stuns will now be preeminent as we move toward a CD based dispel system.
.


seriously this reads like you are using some lorem ipsum generator or spending far too much time with a thesaurus.
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85 Human Paladin
3895
Yeah, take your vocabulary and gtfo. We don't like edumecated types round these parts.
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90 Orc Warrior
0
04/17/2012 12:46 PMPosted by Aeryon
You're assuming because I'm posting on a warlock that I"m complaining about rogue 1v1. I want to make it clear to you I have every class max level and feel the strength of stuns is too powerful in a rated battleground situation with the new dispel system being implemented.

No, I assumed it was because you were using rogues in almost all your examples, and because almost every other stun is irrelevant in comparison to rogue stuns.
Ret paladin: Dispellable.
Arms warrior: Who brings arms warriors anymore?
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80 Troll Druid
3710
I agree. Frankly I just want HoJ removed. It makes playing ret. ez mode. It forces a trinket. I stopped playing my pally cause in 1v1 all I had to do is just pop HoJ and hit crusader strike
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85 Worgen Warlock
5770
You're assuming because I'm posting on a warlock that I"m complaining about rogue 1v1. I want to make it clear to you I have every class max level and feel the strength of stuns is too powerful in a rated battleground situation with the new dispel system being implemented.

No, I assumed it was because you were using rogues in almost all your examples, and because almost every other stun is irrelevant in comparison to rogue stuns.
Ret paladin: Dispellable.
Arms warrior: Who brings arms warriors anymore?


Consider most dispellers will already have their dispell on CD with the 8 second CD environment that is coming. Even if all forms of stuns were dispellable they would still be too strong. They should break on damage not because the single target that applied it is likely beating on them, but more so that they often have others beating on them.

I would advocate not only that a stun break on damage but that a DR affect be implemented onto interrupt effects.

Yes arms specked warriors are not currently as useful in rated battlegrounds as other melee classes are; a case could be made for that. I'd suggest starting a thread on that if that's the way you feel.

Also the post introducing the rogue kidney shot effect was mentioned in the same sentence as the paladin HOJ, and does not constitute the majority of my examples. I could just have easily mentioned a warrior throw-down. I enjoy playing my rogue, but I enjoy playing my warrior also.
Edited by Aeryon on 4/17/2012 9:08 PM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
3070
04/17/2012 03:55 PMPosted by Bamf
You're assuming because I'm posting on a warlock that I"m complaining about rogue 1v1. I want to make it clear to you I have every class max level and feel the strength of stuns is too powerful in a rated battleground situation with the new dispel system being implemented.

No, I assumed it was because you were using rogues in almost all your examples, and because almost every other stun is irrelevant in comparison to rogue stuns.
Ret paladin: Dispellable.
Arms warrior: Who brings arms warriors anymore?


Without radical changes, arms warriors will be back to "must have" status in MoP.
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04/17/2012 04:48 PMPosted by Droptheworld
I agree. Frankly I just want HoJ removed. It makes playing ret. ez mode. It forces a trinket. I stopped playing my pally cause in 1v1 all I had to do is just pop HoJ and hit crusader strike

Maybe you should have fought some people who knew what they were doing.
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