Dissent among the Horde ranks: a possiblity

90 Gnome Warrior
13000
Seeing that the Alliance/Horde bia and 'Thrall hate' stuff has been popping up again as of late along with some stuff that people will claim has or hasn't been taken out of context and since it's (sadly) inevitable that Thrall is indeed slated to sit, once more upon the throne of the Horde, I think it's time to look at things realistically and see where the possiblities lie, don't you?

Just remember, let's keep this civil and let's see what happens.

Let's ask ourselves what REALLY would happen..or rather COULD happen within the Horde leadership when Thrall takes back the throne. Will the other leaders be happy to see him back? That's the key question, to my way of thinking. What DO the other leaders think of Thrall (or will) as Warchief once again? And just what are the possibilities moving foward?

Vol'Jin: Let's go back a bit shall we, to the ORIGINAL lore. Vol'jin's people were 'rescued' by Thrall from persecution and this is, essentially, why Vol'jin is loyal to Thrall and by extension, the Horde. But flash forward several years to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMaGgT8fGnU. "Da Horde is mah people. If it be war y'bring, den I stand against you!"

This is what someone who truly is loyal to a cause or faction is. Now, he's openly opposed to Garrosh, this is true. However, by turning his back on his ENTIRE race for his faction, can we expect him to be thrilled that someone (Thrall) who abandoned his faction to pursue a 'higher cause' is coming back to reclaim the throne? I'd imagine Vol'jin might not be very happy about this indeed, moving forward. Can this lead to conflict within the ranks?


Sylvannas: Like Vol'jin, she has a history of conflict with Garrosh and would be (I expect) MORE than happy to see him gone. But moving forward with a Warchief who saved the ENTIRE world, can she truly in her heart of rotten hearts, be thrilled with the concept of a 'peaceful Warchief' while she just wants to extinguish all live on Azeroth? And let's not forget her current status as 'Lich Queen in training' if we take into account the events at Wrathgate, and ICC. Arthas used the scourge against the Horde too. Syl is currently using Artha's own power which I can't imagine Thrall would be any happier with than Garrosh is/was. Again, conflict within the ranks?


Baine: His father, Thrall's bff was killed by Garrosh. And he, presumably, wants revenge. He might be more sympathetic to Thrall as Warchief, BUT can he be as sympathetic with Thrall's current attitude given the events in the Barrens? This is a HUGE question and one, that again can lead to dissent among the ranks of Horde Leadership.


Lor'themar: A BIG question mark here. Blood elves are so underrepresented in the Horde that it's hard to say. But again, given the conflict with the Alliance, as a whole, can he be put off by Thrall's running away to save the world while ignoring his people and their plight AND their humiliation at indentured servitude at Sylvannas' hand?


Gallywix: MIA since Cataclysm. This one is hard to read. But being accepted into the Horde, slammed into slums and told to forsake their lifestyle, I can't imagine he isn't off somewhere plotting and planning. Nor can I imagine he'll be extremely non-plussed by the new and improved Thrall's return since peace would mean the end of conflict and the end of conflict would mean the end of war profits. Plus there's ALWAYS the 'you rescue us to put us into poverty' bit as well.

____________________________________________________________________________

Point is, while some of us may not be happy with the storyline as it plays out (based on the little information we've been given), bear in mind it ISN'T the end of the story. And the possibilities for conflict within the Horde and even political warfare amongst the Horde moving into the future provides many intriguing posibilities indeed.
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90 Gnome Warrior
13000
I'm gonna self bump this for some (hopefully) evening action.
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90 Blood Elf Mage
5985
I really hope something plays out that doesn't just end with "Thrall's back on his throne for another few years."

A fractured Horde would be an interesting concept, especially if they put the Alliance on the offensive for a while.
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84 Dwarf Warrior
5345
I'm most interested in Sylvanas's reaction, and how Thrall will handle her.
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85 Blood Elf Hunter
2780
I think that Garrosh should go down and Thrall should retire or stay as the leader of the Earthen Ring. That being said I want a new Warchief, Saurfang could be cool, but what if Blizzard were to write up a new story on a different character. They wouldn't have to deal with Thrall nonsense and we, as players, could look a completely new story line.

Also they should delve deeper into Auduin's (Spelled that wrong) story.
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90 Gnome Warrior
13000
I think that Garrosh should go down and Thrall should retire or stay as the leader of the Earthen Ring. That being said I want a new Warchief, Saurfang could be cool, but what if Blizzard were to write up a new story on a different character. They wouldn't have to deal with Thrall nonsense and we, as players, could look a completely new story line.

Also they should delve deeper into Auduin's (Spelled that wrong) story.


I agree Thrall should stay with the Earthen Ring. Let him do his World Shaman thing by ushering the new leader of the Black Dragonflight. I do have a feeling there could be some VERY interesting story development with him that might be 'not so pro-Thrall' coming down the line.

As far as Anduin...I can't say I'm all too familiar with his lore, but it seems to me he's just a bit young in the lore dept. yet for more development...unless he decides he dislikes daddy and leads a revolt.
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85 Draenei Hunter
8410
I really hope something plays out that doesn't just end with "Thrall's back on his throne for another few years."

A fractured Horde would be an interesting concept, especially if they put the Alliance on the offensive for a while.


That would require something Blizzard isn't willing to do... hire someone who actually respects the Alliance. ;)But having more horde story that is interesting like a fracture in the leadership... that's certainly within the realm of possibility.
Edited by Eleshakai on 4/13/2012 5:29 PM PDT
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90 Gnome Warrior
13000
I really hope something plays out that doesn't just end with "Thrall's back on his throne for another few years."

A fractured Horde would be an interesting concept, especially if they put the Alliance on the offensive for a while.


That would require something Blizzard isn't willing to do... hire someone who actually respects the Alliance. ;)But having more horde story that is interesting like a fracture in the leadership... that's certainly within the realm of possibility.


I'm not quite yet convinced it's something Blizzard won't do and isn't considering doing, myself. To me, and THEY'RE the experienced guys, it's pretty obvious if they go this particular route without any unexpected twists that they're painting themselves into a corner from which there is simply no return.

Blizzard has show a pretty remarkable aptitude for thinking forward, even if we (as players) don't quite see the whole story just yet.

I do think Mists has the massive potential to be just the story changer and game changer we ALL need though.
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85 Undead Priest
4490
After Garrosh and what we're hearing he'll become in Mists, I think the leaders would be glad to see just about anyone as Warchief.
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85 Orc Warrior
7940
I think that Garrosh should go down and Thrall should retire or stay as the leader of the Earthen Ring. That being said I want a new Warchief, Saurfang could be cool, but what if Blizzard were to write up a new story on a different character. They wouldn't have to deal with Thrall nonsense and we, as players, could look a completely new story line.

Also they should delve deeper into Auduin's (Spelled that wrong) story.


I agree Thrall should stay with the Earthen Ring. Let him do his World Shaman thing by ushering the new leader of the Black Dragonflight. I do have a feeling there could be some VERY interesting story development with him that might be 'not so pro-Thrall' coming down the line.

As far as Anduin...I can't say I'm all too familiar with his lore, but it seems to me he's just a bit young in the lore dept. yet for more development...unless he decides he dislikes daddy and leads a revolt.


That would actually be an interesting plot twist for Anduin, It's definitely something I'd like to see. Considering Anduin has had little to no character development through out the game this would be something that could lead to some interesting content and quests.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
10695
Gallywix: MIA since Cataclysm. This one is hard to read. But being accepted into the Horde, slammed into slums and told to forsake their lifestyle, I can't imagine he isn't off somewhere plotting and planning. Nor can I imagine he'll be extremely non-plussed by the new and improved Thrall's return since peace would mean the end of conflict and the end of conflict would mean the end of war profits. Plus there's ALWAYS the 'you rescue us to put us into poverty' bit as well.

Gallywix doesn't care about the rest of the Bilgewater Cartel. He cares about himself, and that's it. Remember that he tried to sell pretty much all of it into slavery, including (or perhaps, especially) his top employee. While he may not be pleased with the situation, I guarantee that's only because of what's happened to him.

Vol'Jin: Let's go back a bit shall we, to the ORIGINAL lore. Vol'jin's people were 'rescued' by Thrall from persecution and this is, essentially, why Vol'jin is loyal to Thrall and by extension, the Horde. But flash forward several years to http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMaGgT8fGnU. "Da Horde is mah people. If it be war y'bring, den I stand against you!"

This is what someone who truly is loyal to a cause or faction is. Now, he's openly opposed to Garrosh, this is true. However, by turning his back on his ENTIRE race for his faction, can we expect him to be thrilled that someone (Thrall) who abandoned his faction to pursue a 'higher cause' is coming back to reclaim the throne? I'd imagine Vol'jin might not be very happy about this indeed, moving forward. Can this lead to conflict within the ranks?

Vol'jin still trusts Green Jesus. In the new troll starter zone, he call him up to ask for his advice about dealing with Garrosh. He may not have liked Thrall going off to play Captain Planet, but U don't think that'll override his respect for Thrall.

Sylvannas: Like Vol'jin, she has a history of conflict with Garrosh and would be (I expect) MORE than happy to see him gone. But moving forward with a Warchief who saved the ENTIRE world, can she truly in her heart of rotten hearts, be thrilled with the concept of a 'peaceful Warchief' while she just wants to extinguish all live on Azeroth? And let's not forget her current status as 'Lich Queen in training' if we take into account the events at Wrathgate, and ICC. Arthas used the scourge against the Horde too. Syl is currently using Artha's own power which I can't imagine Thrall would be any happier with than Garrosh is/was. Again, conflict within the ranks?

Honestly, I think she might prefer Garrosh to Thrall. Garrosh's warlike nature means that he's willing to look the other way towards what she does, provided he thinks it's beneficial to the Horde. He's not willing to ignore everything, but his sense of honor places a lot of value on victory. I think Thrall's is more focused on doing what's right. To clarify, I'm not saying that either of them ignore the other part of honor, but their emphasis is different.
Edited by Karat on 4/13/2012 5:44 PM PDT
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90 Gnome Warrior
13000
Vol'jin still likes/trusts Green Jesus. In the new troll starter zone, he call him up to ask for his advice about dealing with Garrosh.


And Thrall tells him to stand down. But if you go back and look at the Zandalari trailer, Vol'jin is most DEFINITLY Horde centric. Thrall, so far, has moved away from that and I really can't expect for there NOT to be some kind of "Hey dere T'rall. You abandon de Horde to dis monsta and NOW you come back to claim da t'rone? I don' tink so, mon!" attitude from Vol'jin.

And that's the crux of the matter. How many leaders of the Horde, while understanding the WHY of it, won't hold Thrall responsible for the obviously mismanaged appointment of Garrosh to the mantle of Warchief? And the larger question is, can Thrall withstand that kind of fracture within the Horde and mend it without substantial character changes?
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85 Tauren Death Knight
7370
Just wanted to point out galywix ain't mia he made a pleasure palace in Azishara and is living of the money he made from his exploits and still runs the cartel from there.
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90 Human Paladin
9055
Vol'jin led teams from both factions to fight the Gurubashi & Amani. I doubt he would have any problem with Thrall taking help from the Alliance since he was trying to save the whole world.

Baine put aside any feelings of vengeance and accepted Garrosh as Warchief. Given that the Horde quests show them winning the Barrens while the Alliance quests end with us going to Theramore with 'ok we'll handle it BUT FIRST OLD QUESTS', I think it's safe to say the Barrens aren't an issue. He'd likely join Thrall's camp.

Lor'themar, assuming he's allowed to take the stage, I think would more than likely go with Thrall. Thrall was the one who allowed them into the Horde during their hour of need. Garrosh hasn't really done anything for him or the Blood Elves aside from keeping up supporting them (the support that Thrall put in place for them).
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
10695
And Thrall tells him to stand down. But if you go back and look at the Zandalari trailer, Vol'jin is most DEFINITLY Horde centric. Thrall, so far, has moved away from that and I really can't expect for there NOT to be some kind of "Hey dere T'rall. You abandon de Horde to dis monsta and NOW you come back to claim da t'rone? I don' tink so, mon!" attitude from Vol'jin.

I don't think he'll be happy about Thrall leaving for Cata, but I don't think it's something he'll cause trouble over, especially considering the damage that Garrosh will likely be doing to the Horde. His passion for the Horde will force him to get over it for fear of doing even more damage. That said, I do agree that he'll give Thrall less leeway in the future.

04/13/2012 05:47 PMPosted by Huggywuggles
How many leaders of the Horde, while understanding the WHY of it, won't hold Thrall responsible for the obviously mismanaged appointment of Garrosh to the mantle of Warchief?

I think they'll be... less supportive than they used to be, but the ones who care about the Horde (meaning Baine and Vol'jin, and possible Whatshisface) probably wouldn't want to risk damaging the Horde even more just to say "told ya so."

04/13/2012 05:47 PMPosted by Huggywuggles
And the larger question is, can Thrall withstand that kind of fracture within the Horde and mend it without substantial character changes?

I really hope not. I don't think the fractures among the leadership will be as significant as you're saying (or as I think you're saying), but there will definitely be significant damage to the rest of the Horde, both as far as cohesion and direct resource loss. It would be a perfect opportunity to change Thrall into someone interesting.

04/13/2012 05:50 PMPosted by Ashenrune
Just wanted to point out galywix ain't mia he made a pleasure palace in Azishara and is living of the money he made from his exploits and still runs the cartel from there.

Except Gallywix isn't actually at Gallywix's Pleasure Palace.
Edited by Karat on 4/13/2012 6:01 PM PDT
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90 Gnome Warrior
13000
Vol'jin led teams from both factions to fight the Gurubashi & Amani. I doubt he would have any problem with Thrall taking help from the Alliance since he was trying to save the whole world.

Baine put aside any feelings of vengeance and accepted Garrosh as Warchief. Given that the Horde quests show them winning the Barrens while the Alliance quests end with us going to Theramore with 'ok we'll handle it BUT FIRST OLD QUESTS', I think it's safe to say the Barrens aren't an issue. He'd likely join Thrall's camp.

Lor'themar, assuming he's allowed to take the stage, I think would more than likely go with Thrall. Thrall was the one who allowed them into the Horde during their hour of need. Garrosh hasn't really done anything for him or the Blood Elves aside from keeping up supporting them (the support that Thrall put in place for them).


I really hope not. I don't think the fractures among the leadership will be as significant as you're saying (or as I think you're saying), but there will definitely be significant damage to the rest of the Horde, both as far as cohesion and direct resource loss. It would be a perfect opportunity to change Thrall into someone interesting.


I can only wonder about the future. Think about it. Let's say two expansions from now, Thrall decides that the best path for the future is to help the Alliance rebuild Theramore (or rebuild another port on the Eastern Kalimdor coast), I just cannot, for the life of me, see the other leaders being so accepting of this.

And again, I have a very strong gut feeling that the fractures within the Horde leadership might just turn out to be stronger than any one of us expects since Thrall was the ONE who put Garrosh on the throne unilaterally. To think the other leaders won't hold him responsible would be shortsighted, in my opinion.

But then again, my gut feelings often turn out to be just me being hungry :/

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there will be outright revolt among the Horde leaders, but I have this gut instinct telling me that Thrall just isn't going to be Warchief again without resistance from the other leaders.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
2760
See, I agree with you on that last point there. I'm absolutely sure that they will have a really cool, interesting, and well written inside story for the Horde for Thrall's return as Warchief.

Just don't expect it to extend beyond the Horde.
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90 Human Warlock
12950
04/13/2012 05:42 PMPosted by Karat
Gallywix doesn't care about the rest of the Bilgewater Cartel. He cares about himself, and that's it. Remember that he tried to sell pretty much all of it into slavery, including (or perhaps, especially) his top employee. While he may not be pleased with the situation, I guarantee that's only because of what's happened to him.


This. I only just recently played through all of the goblin starter zone, & I honestly don't even know why Gallywix was left alive.

Thrall did nothing to this murderous goblin, & I doubt he will do anything when he returns.
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