Theory on Garrosh and the Siege of Orgrimmar

90 Human Paladin
6320
Gilneas City is held by the worgen, but it doesn't seem as though much outside of it is. I'd actually like more in-game clarification--did they retake everything up to the wall? BfG implies that the Forsaken have crossed back into Gilneas to conquer it.

Lordaeron existed in a fragmented state up until the Cataclysm. With Hillsbrad and Southshore gone, I'll admit it was finally destroyed. Alterac now belongs to the Horde, as does Ambermill. Stromgarde seems threatened pretty hard with the breach at Thoradin's wall and their ruler dead (by the way, why wasn't Galen ever crowned King?). The Horde offensive in Ashenvale has ramped up considerably, and Azshara now belongs to the Horde.

You know what I just realized? How is the Alliance even fighting in most of these battlegrounds anymore? AV, BfG, AB, and WG are all pretty threatened by Horde territory these days.

Edit: Just to clarify, the Alliance has lost at least Ambermill, Pyrewood Village, some unclear amount of Gilnean territory, Hillsbrad Fields, Azureload Mine, Southshore, Dun Garok, a massive Stormpike army on the four fingers of Alterac, Bael Modan, and Thal'darah Grove to the Horde. Nethergarde Keep, Nijel's Point, and holdings throughout Ashenvale have come under attack, Andorhal was a major defeat, Quel'danil Lodge is invaded, the newly taken Purgation and Fenris isles see massive casualties, and Tol Barad has become contested. All of this happens at the hands of the Horde. Does that not qualify as a beating?
Edited by Aidros on 4/16/2012 4:45 PM PDT
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
This doesn't hold true in the modern era, though, does it? World War II did not end with the divvying up of Axis lands. Japan was saddled with some specific concessions that did not include giving up their lands.


Land concessions are exactly what happened when WW2 ended. Germany was divided up among the allied powers, specifically the US, Britain, France, and the Soviet Union. It wasn't re-unified for over 50 years.

Japan underwent occupation by the United States that persisted throughout most of the latter half of the 20th century and they still maintain holdings in Okinawa that are justified by their victory in the Second World War, and the only reason the Russians and Chinese don't control parts of the Japanese Isles was because Truman dropped the bomb before a Soviet land invasion could occur.

These are far more than "economic concessions."

In Cataclysm. Lordaeron hasn't existed for awhile now. Can we not derail the thread? Ashenvale hasn't been taken over by the Horde - this has been discussed at length. Theramore hasn't even happened and Duskwallow is certainly not Horde territory at the moment. The only one there that even remotely matters is Gilneas, and it wasn't even Alliance land UNTIL Cata... and as far as I'm aware it isn't entirely Horde land *now*. I also conceded that this is a simple concession that wouldn't break the game.


The continent of Lordaeron didn't cease to exist, the Horde continues to occupy Ashenvale (nothing less than a complete withdrawal of Horde forces should be acceptable to the Night Elves) and we've all seen how final that beta footage of Theramore is.

Perhaps the Alliance could open wider trade with the Horde in an effort to solve the Horde's economic problems and hence address the root of the problem, but it needs to be on the Alliance's terms, not at the tip of a Horde Axe.
Edited by Vyrin on 4/16/2012 3:46 PM PDT
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100 Dwarf Paladin
13395
We are getting pretty far removed from my theory on the Siege of Orgrimmar. I don't mind a little discussion on the Siege in general, but talking about the finer points of what would be acceptable to the Alliance in a hypothetical peace treaty isn't exactly on topic.

Also try not to personalize the arguments so much. I see some people talking about it like they are flesh and blood members of the Alliance, which is a bit unsettling to say the least. Even though I am an avid Alliance player myself.
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90 Human Paladin
6320
The Alliance response was postulated as a weakness of your theory, and I think it's still valid. But it has gotten a bit away from your description of the siege.

I like the theory, but, again, I'm not sure that it really addresses the Alliance involvement from a common-sense standpoint. The "flesh-shaping" seems to me more genetic engineering, reliant on existing biological races and the natural growth and maturation of creatures. If that's true, then it's not the same sense of urgency to take them down--Varian should just step back and let the Horde fight it out. If that's not how it works your theory'd probably fit a bit better.

And sorry for my part in ratcheting up the intensity. I get quite frustrated, though, with people who argue by undermining how other people use language and then refuse to define what they're talking about. Saying if territorial concessions equals land concessions we're self-limiting needs a lot of clarification to make it make sense. And if I chided someone for being self-limiting without elaborating on anything myself, I think that would be a bit presumptuous on my part. If people aren't thinking of the things that I am, I want to say my piece and try to bring these unthought aspects to the table.

Economic concessions are a part of many wars, but territorial concessions also almost always accompany victory. I doubt that players would be satisfied with in-game "economic concessions," as it seems unlikely they'd really benefit or even view it as appropriate considering the Horde's recent conquests.
Edited by Aidros on 4/16/2012 5:00 PM PDT
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100 Tauren Druid
11050
04/16/2012 03:32 PMPosted by Aidros
You know what I just realized? How is the Alliance even fighting in most of these battlegrounds anymore? AV, BfG, AB, and WG are all pretty threatened by Horde territory these days.


Most of the older BGs are merely in-game for gameplay purposes - none of them really reflect on-going struggles.

We are getting pretty far removed from my theory on the Siege of Orgrimmar. I don't mind a little discussion on the Siege in general, but talking about the finer points of what would be acceptable to the Alliance in a hypothetical peace treaty isn't exactly on topic.


1. Garrosh is driven by his own lust for conquest rather then an external influence.
2. Allies with the remnants of the Mogu. He offers them rulership of Pandaria in exchange for using their flesh-shaping magic, combined with the Horde's vast resources, to create an army of super-soldiers.
3. This action is the final straw that triggers the Horde's uprising against Garrosh.
4. The Siege of Orgrimmar raid will be launched with the explicit goal of not only deposing Garrosh, but also stopping the super-soldiers from being unleashed on Azeroth.
5. While the bulk of the super-soldiers are still being created, the ones that are finished augment the defenses of Orgrimmar, making the raid more varied visually (let's just say I'd rather avoid a situation where we have a 10 boss raid where 8 of the bosses are Orcs).


Just curious, and perhaps it was answered but I didn't see it: Number 3... what would trigger the uprising... the alliance or the use of mogu magic? And why would that cause an uprising?
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90 Blood Elf Warrior
6340
I kinda see it like the wrath gate. Horde and Alliance together taking down Garrosh.
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90 Human Paladin
6320
04/16/2012 05:07 PMPosted by Bullcowsby
Most of the older BGs are merely in-game for gameplay purposes - none of them really reflect on-going struggles.


It'd be nice to have a source for that. I definitely wouldn't quibble with BC or WotLK content, as all of that is stuck in a time warp. And Gilneas, at least, is current.

I think the idea is that an alliance with the Mogu would cause the uprising because of the Horde's alliance with Ji Firepaw and his followers.

Also, here's how the entire expansion should tie together (self-plug):

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4427708237
Edited by Aidros on 4/16/2012 6:17 PM PDT
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100 Troll Shaman
5930
04/16/2012 06:14 PMPosted by Aidros
It'd be nice to have a source for that.

Well, Drek'thar is senile and in a wheelchair now but not in the BG, which means the Alterac Valley battleground is likely outdated.

We know there was a ceasefire in all the battlegrounds while the peace treaty post Lich King was in effect, it's possible the fighting never resumed.
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100 Tauren Druid
11050
04/16/2012 06:14 PMPosted by Aidros
It'd be nice to have a source for that.


EDIT: See what Kellick said.
Edited by Bullcowsby on 4/16/2012 6:30 PM PDT
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86 Human Death Knight
2895


Beyond that, the people that attacked Shatt were the Blood Elves. Who were under KT. Who was working with the Legion.


Yeah. Kael's forces are largely the ones the Horde and Alliance see being directly antagonistic and evil. And they attribute all of Kael's actions to Illidan, as it is a misconception at the time that Kael is Illidan's creature when in fact he was working for Kil'Jaeden all along.

It is a beautifully executed con, if you ask me.

Kael'thas and Kil'Jaeden framed Illidan up as the bad guy perfectly.

They opened the portal, sent in a paltry invasion force, let it crumble aside as the Horde and Alliance responded and allowed them to butt forcibly up against the Fel Orcs, which only set the stage for Illidan being the bad guy. Then Kael pulled off a series of misleading strikes against the Horde, Alliance, and all neutral parties, transferring blame to the Illidari every step of the way.


You sir are brilliant, and you should feel brilliant
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90 Night Elf Druid
9895
04/15/2012 08:11 AMPosted by Falrinn
(let's just say I'd rather avoid a situation where we have a 10 boss raid where 8 of the bosses are Orcs).


Agreed.
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90 Tauren Death Knight
6550
I say Garrosh raises Broxigar the Red from his grave and genetically mutates him with Rexxar into one ultimate mindless 3/4 Orc 1/4 Ogre Badass world eating Baddie.

That seems urgent enough.

But seriously, I think it will be more like "Garrosh surrender and pay for your crimes!" and he will be like "Never!" /4 phase fight.

If you think about it it adds a different feel to the fight. Previously, fights were OMG! HE WILL DESTROY UZ ALL IF WE DONTZ DEADZ HIM!!!!!!

By not turning Garrosh into an Ultimatum you get the feel of bringing him to justice, yet this was also the Hero of Northrend, Son of Grommash who condemned and redeemed the Orcs, current Warchief.

Opinions and views will clearly change between one's favored faction or even race but you get the drift.
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
12030
@ Kynrind: I want to know where the idea of Alliance ownership of Androhal (sp?) came from? Last I checked (from the Horde side only, admittedly) it was a Scourge-held ruin of a town that the Alliance and Horde fought over and the Horde won. Looking at its position geographically Androhal is nowhere near any Alliance base of any size, lies within a day or 2 march of both uncontested Forsaken territory and Argent territory and can't be reached by the Alliance without going over several miles of Forsaken land.

Plague Mist Ravine, leading down from Arie Peak appears to have been added for player convinence since, in lore, Orgrim's invasion force must climb the mountains instead of using a mountain pass.

So what is your justification for the Alliance's claim for Androhal?
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
04/16/2012 07:49 PMPosted by Telonis
So what is your justification for the Alliance's claim for Androhal?


The fact that it held it for 30 years before the coming of the Scourge.
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25 Blood Elf Paladin
0
04/16/2012 07:57 PMPosted by Kynrind
It founded the first Alliance and was destroyed.


There is no "first Alliance." It's just "the Alliance."
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85 Worgen Rogue
13435
So uh.

This seems to be the newest thread about Orgrimmar around so I'll just...drop this here.

http://www.gameplanet.co.nz/pc/games/175626.World-of-Warcraft-Mists-of-Pandaria/features/138733.20120319.Blizzards-J.-Allen-Brack-on-Mists-of-Pandaria/

Gameplanet: Can you tell us a bit more about the upcoming raid on Orgrimmar?

Brack: Sure. We haven't designed very much of it right now, we just know we do want to have the recognition from the Horde and Alliance that we have to depose Garrosh as the leader of the Horde and reinstate Thrall as Warchief. I'm really excited about it from a player perspective, because I think if you're an Alliance player, the idea about doing a raid into the heart of your enemies capital is really satisfying, and deposing the enemy leader is super gratifying. On the Horde side, it's going to be super cool to have a raid in your own home town, and who doesn't want Thrall to be the leader of the Horde?


Just ignore me as usual if it's nothing new, but, I hadn't seen this interview before.
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