World of Warcraft®

04/16/2012 07:45 PMPosted by Smokingmanaj

I think most of us just want the opportunity to do the current content on 10 and 25 modes during the same week.

No thank you.

After the ridiculousness of doing four versions of ToC every week, I never EVER want to return to that ever again.

The reason their were so many 25man guilds in wrath is because it was REQUIRED to progress. You could progress in both, which added experience and gear to a raid group. If you chose to do only one raid size lockout, you were pretty much saying screw progression.

Thanks to the split lockout, people no longer HAD to do 25mans. So they chose not to.

^^^this

I raided 25-mans in BC because to do anything past Kara, you had to. I raided 25-mans for most of Wrath because to get the best gear, you had to. I had to switch to 10-mans during ICC because my computer died and my back up could only handle 10-man graphics. I was in the "clean up" 10-man that did HMs to get trinkets and achievements before going into 25-mans. That group completely died when 4.0 hit and raid lock outs got combined.

You have no idea how happy I was to JUST raid 10-mans in Cata. Now I can raid 10-mans like I want to. Not *have* to raid 25-mans because there is no choice.

I'd love for raid instances to actually be nearly impossible to down. Going along with the 2-4 pugs I see each hour(wait just saw another start up at H ultrax that makes 5 yippee I get to count to make my point!) 10 mans are so easy they are becoming BH runs.. :

Group up>kill boss>pass out loot>complain how the [insert] won your loot>complain if you are even going to see it drop again next tuesday>pause the stopwatch you started when everyone accepted the summon before the raid started and it reads <00:04:35> *sigh*and then sit in SW/Org for a bit>log out.

I want to be making money for the guild bank for repair bills on countless wipes, rather than, making money for the guild bank so we can buy gems and enchants for the new gear this game is easily handing out. Normal mode raids shouldn't be easy 10 nor 25. In cata difficulty levels go like this: heroic=medium, Normal=easy, and Raidfinder=trix are for kids. Might as well make an insane mode

.... What? Apparently 25 man guilds get less valor points than 10 man guilds? Wow, that is news to me. Also it is very hard for me to take your crying seriously when even Blizzard themselves have stated they are aware at the loot problems within 10 man guilds. If you honestly believe that a 25 man guild gears more slowly than an equally progressed 10 man guild even though it generates far less waste, then you are adorable.

Ok ill say it again, cause I know it is not your strong point - READING COMPREHENSION!

...than before...

I never said you get less than 10 mans, I pointed out that it was changed so you got less than before the change. I do not even want to touch the second sentance, that was like an assumption from a guess based on a misquote - way to put words in my mouth.

(Also when someone is complaining about valor points, you can tell they are getting really desperate. Please tell me that 10 man bosses drop more gold per player killed to just name the most worthless currency you can think of)

Valor points were one of the touted aspect of differences at the start of the expansions to "give 25 mans an added incentve to run them". This is not me saying this, this was Blizzard when they first implemented them. In addition I used this example as one of the otherws ways in which changes were made benefiting 10 mans after you blatently stated there were no other changes - hang on, i'll quote you for the benefit of others reading:

"10 mans have had tons of changes made to favor them!"
This is a bad argument. Lets look at the changes between Wrath to Cataclysm for 10 man raiding: Blizzard created a shared loot table instead of designing one specific to 10 man raiding.

That's it, that is literally the only change.

So..... are you arguing that there was only one change? Or that there were a few but some "didn't count" in your eyes? Or are you just going to blame me for finding problems in your arguments and lack of reading comprehension?

This was a good retort, instead of actually forming a rebuttal for what I said, you instead just shouted meaningless drivel. Boring and easy.

Actually it was an extension to every post I made regarding yours - every post is dripping with selfish "me, me, me, whine whine, wah!" and utterly selfish. You ignore facts that do not go with your arguments, misquote me and just about every other argument in the front page, then try to put words in my mouth. You have shown you do not accept any facts that do not support your arguments and have not rebutted anything I have said, yet somehow try to tell me I am the one that has not rebutted you????

ROFL

04/16/2012 10:00 PMPosted by Arianenna

After the ridiculousness of doing four versions of ToC every week, I never EVER want to return to that ever again.

Guess what...

They aren't bringing that system back. 4 lockouts ONLY ever existed with ToC. Using toc as an excuse as to why seperating the 10/25 man lockouts shouldn't happen is a strawman argument and fearmongering.

LOL i wish i could get people in my guild to even do 10 mans!

Well whatever...25 mans will die out, because it's not fun for many. 10 mans are just fine for most people.

Kill 25 mans and Just make it 15, or revamp the system. Either way, the death of 25 mans is a long time coming, and happy to see Mist is going to help it.

How is MoP going to help it? I haven't seen any info saying that Blizz is going to kill it. In this very thread a blue said they were thinking of improvements and such and such.
So tell me what is going to finish off 25 man please.

The whole fuss about this thread is that there's a rumor that 10s and 25s will have seperate achievements and lock outs again like they did in Wrath. If the rumors are true, doesn't sound like 25 man is being killed off.

04/16/2012 10:16 PMPosted by Xario

Kill 25 mans and Just make it 15, or revamp the system. Either way, the death of 25 mans is a long time coming, and happy to see Mist is going to help it.

And therefore kill what little social activity is left in wow. 10 man raiding guilds are not social... they're too small. There is little to no diversity....

I miss our guild doing 25s, given that prior to the recruitment issues we used to have our 25 core raiders, a bench and a lot of other activity both on raiding days and non raiding days. Vent was full, we had people doing pve / pvp and random world stuff...

We had the option to interact in wrath through pug raids, finding new people who we thought deserved chances to get into a main 25 raid or at least be on the reserve list... we had more interaction with other 25 man guilds on the server.

Now? Everyone is locked in these little insular 10 man guilds....

04/16/2012 10:20 PMPosted by Marathel

The bottom line is that when the lockouts were separate and in its basest form it made the content last a lot longer than it should have perhaps. Nonetheless it made people want to raid again. It wasn't so much about the fact that ICC 10 man was 251 or 25 man 264. You either worked way up but at the end of the day most people were glad to have THE OPTION TO DO BOTH.

Yep. I could care less about the gear. I just want to raid more. Many of people in this thread have stated the same thing.

Im going to say this is a very simple manner...

25>10man

I wish 25 man was more popular.

I agree with Waraila. Same page, we're on it!! <3

Marathel too!

And Sanctinius!! <3 <3

I miss our guild doing 25s, given that prior to the recruitment issues we used to have our 25 core raiders, a bench and a lot of other activity both on raiding days and non raiding days. Vent was full, we had people doing pve / pvp and random world stuff...

On that note, a slightly funny story. We do occasionally have people recruited who's only experience in game raiding are 10 mans and these people sometimes are overhwelmed with the level of discussion, communications, forums and vent chit chat that goes on. We currently have 39 raiders in our roster and every week there is usually at least one day where every member is online and available.

A couple weeks ago we had a new recruit join us from a 10 man only guild and was, in his own words, "shocked by how many people were online at the same time". In addition to this, could not believe how many people were on vent, or how many different things were going on - inside or outside raid times. We even have people commenting that they "had not seen guild forums so active before".

I think this is a sad side effect of 10 mans. I do not take an issue with those preferring the 10 man format or staying in guilds that prefer it.... but so much of that MMO feeling seems to get lost in 10 man guilds, which just seems to be a sad situation all around.

04/16/2012 10:07 PMPosted by Virtutis

.... What? Apparently 25 man guilds get less valor points than 10 man guilds? Wow, that is news to me. Also it is very hard for me to take your crying seriously when even Blizzard themselves have stated they are aware at the loot problems within 10 man guilds. If you honestly believe that a 25 man guild gears more slowly than an equally progressed 10 man guild even though it generates far less waste, then you are adorable.

Ok ill say it again, cause I know it is not your strong point - READING COMPREHENSION!

...than before...

I never said you get less than 10 mans, I pointed out that it was changed so you got less than before the change. I do not even want to touch the second sentance, that was like an assumption from a guess based on a misquote - way to put words in my mouth.

(Also when someone is complaining about valor points, you can tell they are getting really desperate. Please tell me that 10 man bosses drop more gold per player killed to just name the most worthless currency you can think of)

Valor points were one of the touted aspect of differences at the start of the expansions to "give 25 mans an added incentve to run them". This is not me saying this, this was Blizzard when they first implemented them. In addition I used this example as one of the otherws ways in which changes were made benefiting 10 mans after you blatently stated there were no other changes - hang on, i'll quote you for the benefit of others reading:

"10 mans have had tons of changes made to favor them!"
This is a bad argument. Lets look at the changes between Wrath to Cataclysm for 10 man raiding: Blizzard created a shared loot table instead of designing one specific to 10 man raiding.

That's it, that is literally the only change.

So..... are you arguing that there was only one change? Or that there were a few but some "didn't count" in your eyes? Or are you just going to blame me for finding problems in your arguments and lack of reading comprehension?

This was a good retort, instead of actually forming a rebuttal for what I said, you instead just shouted meaningless drivel. Boring and easy.

Actually it was an extension to every post I made regarding yours - every post is dripping with selfish "me, me, me, whine whine, wah!" and utterly selfish. You ignore facts that do not go with your arguments, misquote me and just about every other argument in the front page, then try to put words in my mouth. You have shown you do not accept any facts that do not support your arguments and have not rebutted anything I have said, yet somehow try to tell me I am the one that has not rebutted you????

ROFL

Ohhh I see, so you are actually crying about them making 10 and 25 provide the same tangible rewards. In your eyes its not that 10 mans get the same amount of valor as 25s, its that "25s get less valor then they used to", got it.

So basically Blizzard hurt 25 mans by making 10 man raiding fair? And you are upset about this? And I am the selfish one because I want... Fairness? Thank you so much for this, you have a good one.

I agree with Waraila. Same page, we're on it!! <3

Marathel too!

Add Sanctinius to that list.

I agree with Waraila. Same page, we're on it!! <3

Marathel too!

Add Sanctinius to that list.

Done.

Ohhh I see, so you are actually crying about them making 10 and 25 provide the same tangible rewards. In your eyes its not that 10 mans get the same amount of valor as 25s, its that "25s get less valor then they used to", got it.

So basically Blizzard hurt 25 mans by making 10 man raiding fair? And you are upset about this? And I am the selfish one because I want... Fairness? Thank you so much for this, you have a good one.

Fair is subjective. It has already been said, including by Blizzard, that there are logistical challanges to running 25 mans. These challenges are what neccessitated the differences in the first place. These were changed not to "make them fair" but... hang on you don't seem to take in anything I say so I will post a blue post instead:

I thought one of the incentives to do 25 man over 10 was to get more points, so cap faster for the week?

Wow, that idea didn't even last the expansion it was put in for, did it?

Our goal remains to make 25s slightly more rewarding to help offset the logistical challenges inherit in 25-player raiding, but we didn’t think extra Valor was a strong incentive for those players since they tend to run out of uses for Valor pretty quickly, which will be even more true in 4.3.

Even Blizzard agrees they want 25 mans to be slightly more rewarding.

Oh and having two formats, where it is more challenging to organise and run one format having the same rewards is not fair. That is the point. And Blizzard agrees. You however seem to keep putting your head in the sand - and still do not now the basic facts upon which you are arguing.

Yes you are being selfish - and that is clear to others as well as I am not the only one thats pointed it out.

EDIT: The link just in case:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3595371172

Ohhh I see, so you are actually crying about them making 10 and 25 provide the same tangible rewards. In your eyes its not that 10 mans get the same amount of valor as 25s, its that "25s get less valor then they used to", got it.

So basically Blizzard hurt 25 mans by making 10 man raiding fair? And you are upset about this? And I am the selfish one because I want... Fairness? Thank you so much for this, you have a good one.

Applemask, my old friend, I am thoroughly amused at how 44 pages and a blue post later....

You STILL don't get it.