Arena gear should be instantly obtainable.

100 Blood Elf Rogue
9115
04/23/2012 07:08 AMPosted by Jogok
I fully support this idea. Level the playing field in pvp. Those opposed are the same people that love stomping undergeared people into the ground.


That's why they removed the rating requirements from the gear. And bad players will still lose even though they blame gear.


The problem, as we're discussing, is that they've taken rating requirements away and instead of having to buy 5 pieces + weapons, you have to buy SEVENTEEN pieces, which screws you up if you missed a month. Or two. Or rolled an alt late in the season.
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10 Goblin Rogue
10610
04/23/2012 06:44 AMPosted by Koutetsu
So to sum it up I think people should grind for optimal gear and just be behind a couple pieces, not an entire set. Cataclysm sucks.


I think I just misinterpreted what you were presenting. My apologies.

I don't have a problem with this. I'd say we could discuss the details on the matter, but I think we both know it would be a waste, since it is highly unlikely such a thing will be implemented into the game.

The problem, as we're discussing, is that they've taken rating requirements away and instead of having to buy 5 pieces + weapons, you have to buy SEVENTEEN pieces, which screws you up if you missed a month. Or two. Or rolled an alt late in the season.


Also, ^this.

As an example, I have 6 85's, with a couple more on their way (slowly but surely). Because of the time it takes to grind everything out, I only play one consistently.

It's not that I don't want to play the others, or that I wouldn't if there was a better system in place, it's that rather than having incentives to play them, I would have to feel like a masochist to pick them all up.
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85 Night Elf Priest
5010
This idea is so bad that it isn't even worth commenting on, but I'll bite...

The main reason people play (either pve or pvp) is to gear up so they can enjoy higher level content. In PvE you gear up so you can run end game raid content. In PvP you gear up to gain an advantage over your competition. Giving everyone top end gear as soon as they hit 85 defeats this purpose.

I don't buy the "let everyone have the same gear so skill is all that matters" nonsense either, because this is just an excuse that lazy players make. It is not hard to get cata gear... yes it takes time but that is the whole point. Blizz wants people to play & gearing up is the main reason why most people play (for the reasons I explained above).

Terrible, awful, horrible idea.
Edited by Faenya on 4/23/2012 9:27 AM PDT
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10 Goblin Rogue
10610
Faenya thinks that people getting destroyed in randoms is what PvP is about and what PvPers enjoy.
Edited by Sheevah on 4/23/2012 9:33 AM PDT
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85 Night Elf Priest
5010
04/23/2012 09:33 AMPosted by Sheevah
Faenya thinks that people getting destroyed in randoms is what PvP is about and what PvPers enjoy.
No I think that you should earn what you get, not have it handed to you. Everyone in full cata started somewhere & they earned their gear (which as I said isn't very hard to do).

I am so sick & tired of the welfare mentality of so many players... stop asking for a handout you lazy sacks of fecal matter.
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86 Goblin Hunter
4655
I'm prolly going to drop out of WoW because of this. If I want to level a toon a toon on a different server I have to wait if almost 2 months if I want to compete.

--------------or they could make conquest gear cheaper as the season goes on------------------
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10 Goblin Rogue
10610
No I think that you should earn what you get, not have it handed to you. Everyone in full cata started somewhere & they earned their gear (which as I said isn't very hard to do).

I am so sick & tired of the welfare mentality of so many players... stop asking for a handout you lazy sacks of fecal matter.


Anything that expedites the painfully slow process of getting gear to that allows someone to be competitive would be appreciated.

I'm proposing that if people aren't handicapped from the start, they will be more inclined to work towards objectives/goals/etc. You're proposing that people being handicapped in the beginning is a good thing, which is silly.
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85 Blood Elf Warlock
4535
Just keep the cp cap and conq vendors so you can still buy gear for non ranked BG's, and for ranked BG's/Arenas just zone in with a full set of cata gear.

Everyones geared, blizz can balance around the same ilvl, and people can still e-peen their "hard-earned" purples in normal BG's (which is what most people play).
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85 Night Elf Priest
5010
Nobody is "handicapped from the start" we all start at the same point. Why should Player A spend 0 time gearing & have the same gear as player B that spent countless hours gearing? It is a terrible concept that goes against the very nature of the game.

It has nothing to do with "e-peen" it has to do with earning what you have. Just an inherently bad idea.
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10 Goblin Rogue
10610
Nobody is "handicapped from the start" we all start at the same point. Why should Player A spend 0 time gearing & have the same gear as player B that spent countless hours gearing? It is a terrible concept that goes against the very nature of the game.


I suppose you feel that everyone should have to walk, rather than getting in a car to travel, simply because there was a point in time where everyone had to walk, too.

And calculators are evil because people used to have to work harder to figure out equations, I suppose.

Simply because you spent time acquiring gear, it doesn't entitle you to anything above other players.

I have full cata gear, epic gems, and t2 on my character. I can go into a battleground and destroy pretty much everybody with minimal effort. Guess what, that isn't fun for me. On the flip side, I can go over to an undergeared alt and get roflstomped in a BG... guess what... that isn't fun either.

So, now, battlegrounds aren't fun, and there is no real incentive to queue up for arenas anymore, because I've got the gear. I've literally got no reason to play the game anymore, because the model is so terribly designed, which is a shame, because I like the game. I just wish there was more substance to it that made me want to come back.

When gear is important enough that it is sole reason that a team can win or lose any given encounter for a part of game that pits players against each other, the model needs to be looked at.
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85 Blood Elf Warlock
4535
Nobody is "handicapped from the start" we all start at the same point. Why should Player A spend 0 time gearing & have the same gear as player B that spent countless hours gearing? It is a terrible concept that goes against the very nature of the game.

It has nothing to do with "e-peen" it has to do with earning what you have. Just an inherently bad idea.

The very nature of the game (PVE) is to start from scratch and get geared by rng drops in dungeons and raids, you get better dps as you progress and dragons fall easier, hard modes step in for another level of gear and basically start over again, nothing wrong with that, that's the MMO model (PVE).

The very nature of ANY PVP game is to be balanced, on the same field, and skill is the only thing that differences a good player from a bad player, games as DoTA, LoL, CS, any fighting game, all of them put players on an even field, and if you're good, you can stomp the other team.

We all know this game is based on PVE, but the very nature of the game just doesn't fit what a PVP game should be played, it's just sad that for the lower brackets, gear is the only difference between winning and losing.
Edited by Tátl on 4/23/2012 11:27 AM PDT
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85 Night Elf Priest
5010
04/23/2012 11:24 AMPosted by Sheevah
Simply because you spent time acquiring gear, it doesn't entitle you to anything above other players.
Yea it actually does. It's the same principle as in RL (an honest days work for an honest days pay). Before you say "wow isn't RL" no it isn't, but some things in RL do apply.
04/23/2012 11:25 AMPosted by Tátl
The very nature of ANY PVP game is to be balanced, on the same field, and skill is the only thing that differences a good player from a bad player, games as DoTA, LoL, CS, any fighting game, all of them put players on an even field, and if you're good, you can stomp the other team.
It is balanced in the sense that everyone has the same opportunity to get cata gear. Giving someone the same gear without earning it isn't balance at all, it's a handout.

We can agree to disagree & that's fine, but I will never condone a welfare mentality even in a game.
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1 Gnome Warrior
0
04/23/2012 07:08 AMPosted by Jogok
I fully support this idea. Level the playing field in pvp. Those opposed are the same people that love stomping undergeared people into the ground.


That's why they removed the rating requirements from the gear. And bad players will still lose even though they blame gear.


This is an obvious statement. Good players will beat bad players given equal gear. Isn't this how things should be?
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1 Gnome Warrior
0
Most serious pvp games have people on an equal playing field. Why should arena be any different. Hell the gear could just exist while in an RBG or arena for all I care. Let the people that need to boost their ego stomp people in random BGs, but the real pvp should be balanced gearwise imo.
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10 Goblin Rogue
10610
Yea it actually does. It's the same principle as in RL (an honest days work for an honest days pay). Before you say "wow isn't RL" no it isn't, but some things in RL do apply.


A better comparison to real life would be the guy that has been in an entry level position at McDonald's for the last 2 years still makes the same wages as the new guy that gets hired for the same entry level position.

If minimum wage goes up during the first year, meaning that the guy that worked there longer got a "raise", he will likely feel cheated that the new guy starts at the higher rate. However, it is only fair that the entry-level position workers all make the same thing.

We have that process in WoW. 85 has been around for a long time now, and newer and better gear has been added. However, that gear is required to step into a competitive environment if you want a chance. Simply because you played a year to get all of it, doesn't mean the new 85 shouldn't have access to the same thing, even though you feel it "isn't right".

Essentially, you're advocating that new 85's have to fight with both arms tied behind their back, while you, the veteran, who has more experience and time at 85, gets to beat up the new guy. Realistically, if anyone should be handicapped to keep things competitive, it would be the veterans that already know the ropes.

What is being proposed is that everybody has (mostly) the same stuff. At least an equal shot to win in every encounter (unless there is a large skill difference). It's sad that you'd rather prey on the weak than fight people that have a chance.
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
9115
Simply because you spent time acquiring gear, it doesn't entitle you to anything above other players.
Yea it actually does. It's the same principle as in RL (an honest days work for an honest days pay). Before you say "wow isn't RL" no it isn't, but some things in RL do apply.
The very nature of ANY PVP game is to be balanced, on the same field, and skill is the only thing that differences a good player from a bad player, games as DoTA, LoL, CS, any fighting game, all of them put players on an even field, and if you're good, you can stomp the other team.
It is balanced in the sense that everyone has the same opportunity to get cata gear. Giving someone the same gear without earning it isn't balance at all, it's a handout.

We can agree to disagree & that's fine, but I will never condone a welfare mentality even in a game.


Nobody is "handicapped from the start" we all start at the same point. Why should Player A spend 0 time gearing & have the same gear as player B that spent countless hours gearing? It is a terrible concept that goes against the very nature of the game.

It has nothing to do with "e-peen" it has to do with earning what you have. Just an inherently bad idea.


Are you kidding me?

The longer the season has been running for, the biggest is the handicap of people starting fresh, simply because even people who never expanded their Cap will have FULL CATA.

This is PvP we're talking about, in case you haven't realized. Your handicap for starting late is the obscene gear even backpedalling terribads will have by now. Yesterday, trying to get cap on this fresh rogue, I've fought an obscene amount of completly geared people who I was critting ambushes for SEVEN THOUSAND, while being crit for over 40k.

In the beggining of the season, no one had Full Cata. People could insta farm ruthless in 1 and 2 weeks and be in an equal footing with everyone that actually arena'd last season.

This is not Lich King, where people had to improve to buy their gear, thanks to Rating Requirements. Even at 900 MMR you will fight people with full Cata gear. When you still have vicious !@#$ and green daggers.

So to sum it up:

To say "everyone started in an equal place" in those conditions is stupid at best.

Edit- "Earning" things is getting rating, not winning 7 games a week and some Bgs and grinding gear through months.

That's being handed to you, yet makes you think you're a hard worker somehow. Lol.
Edited by Koutetsu on 4/23/2012 3:29 PM PDT
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mmmm some smart person/company will make a wow arena clone without the rest of wow, arena in wow will die completely, and everyone will be happier :D
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85 Night Elf Mage
12920
None of the people against this are competetive pvpers and seem to hate the existance of competetive pvp in this game and want it hurt as much as possible.

None of the arguments against the op make any sense

"WOW HAS TO HAVE A GEAR GRIND IT HAS TO"

Uhh why?

"BECAUSE IT HAS TO ITS AN MMORPG"

...

In PvP you gear up to gain an advantage over your competition.


No, you gear up so it's fair why can't you people get it through your thick skulls. This is posted in the arena forums not the 1k "I don't understand anything about pvp or pvpers" forums.
Edited by Konsigliere on 4/23/2012 3:46 PM PDT
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