MoP Paladin Tank Discussion

100 Blood Elf Paladin
17740
That's not how it works. If you spend the Rage/HP/Runes to help you survive, and you survive, you haven't wasted it at all, that Rage/HP/Runes did the job by ensuring that even if a hit would have landed, you would have had a better shot at survival.

Just because you happened to dodge while ShoR was up doesn't mean ShoR was wasted. Ever. What you spent that ShoR on was to guarantee that your worst case of being hit would have involved the ShoR effect making it more likely for you to survive. It did that. The resources is an investment to get you through to the next X seconds, similar to how cooldowns are there to ensure that you live through the duration of the cooldown itself, even if you wouldn't have died while the cooldown was up anyway.

Do you think a cooldown is wasted because you happened to Dodge? Do you think Ardent (not Argent) Defender is wasted because you didn't get low enough to proc the failsafe?


You're completely missing my point here. You're comparing a three second duration and a six second duration versus 10 (Ardent Defender) and 12 (Guardian/Shield Wall). Significantly longer duration with the potential of much more damage mitigated.
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100 Human Paladin
15070
05/03/2012 01:59 PMPosted by Kilandara
You're completely missing my point here. You're comparing a three second duration and a six second duration versus 10 (Ardent Defender) and 12 (Guardian/Shield Wall). Significantly longer duration with the potential of much more damage mitigated.


They aren't missing your point. They just think your point is silly. Pressing the button prepares you for the worst case situation, if that doesn't happen fantastic.
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90 Human Warrior
13005
05/03/2012 01:54 PMPosted by Kilandara
Even something like Holy Avenger has questionable worth to a tank because you use it, CS, ShoR, Judgement, ShoR (clip the buff) or WoG (use your BoG stacks), filler (Or AS if GC procced), CS, ShoR or WoG (No Bastion if you used it). It would be like if I had to enter the konami code every time I used Divine Protection or the buff would cut out halfway through. That isn't really clear in any sense of the word even as a tank cooldown, and is just used to circumvent what is otherwise a low duration buff that's vital to my survival.

At this point, you're either trolling, or you have such a weak grasp of how to properly manage survivability-based skills that you have no business commenting on tanking.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
You're completely missing my point here. You're comparing a three second duration and a six second duration versus 10 (Ardent Defender) and 12 (Guardian/Shield Wall). Significantly longer duration with the potential of much more damage mitigated.


No, I'm using two different abilities with the same goal (survival) to make the same point. When you hit ShoR, you're hitting it as a resource investment (and because it's a resource investment, it has no cooldown, so you can use it back to back if you want) to ensure that in those 6 seconds, <this> improves your chance of survival by putting the odds in your favour as much as possible. As long as you survive those 6 seconds, that investment paid off.

The point I'm making is that your point of view is not very smart. If you never get hit while ShoR is up, that's EVEN BETTER.
Edited by Slashlove on 5/3/2012 2:10 PM PDT
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85 Draenei Paladin
8045
let me be the first to call it, but...

there is no way in hell the new WoG for Prot that heals 177k based on five Bastions of Light will make it to live, and it shouldn't. that's just ridiculous for PVP and will lopside everything.

take it out and nerf it now before QQ bears come and play after the fact.
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90 Human Warrior
13005
let me be the first to call it, but...

there is no way in hell the new WoG for Prot that heals 177k based on five Bastions of Light will make it to live, and it shouldn't. that's just ridiculous for PVP and will lopside everything.

take it out and nerf it now before QQ bears come and play after the fact.

It's beta. They haven't even started trying to balance the numbers until they get the core concepts in play.
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90 Human Paladin
14020
05/02/2012 09:29 AMPosted by Xerties
Tier 3, all three of the talents are extremely good. This will be one of those per fight talent changes. Although Selfless Healer may cause mana problems leaving us two choices instead.

Xayton, so far, I agree with your assessments (though obviously we can't know yet how the level 90 talents will play out, except for Tier 3. Now that Sacred Shield affects crit of FoL rather than WoG, it doesn't seem to make sense to take it for tanking. Eternal Flame competes for HoPo with our AM, so again, I doubt I'd want to take it unless a HoT was specifically needed for a particular fight, that couldn't somehow be provided by a healer. Selfless Healer seems the clear choice - free (no mana or HoPo)/instant FoL for every 3 Judgements (which I'll be using anyway when tanking).
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90 Human Paladin
14020
I find that people tend to ignore Boundless Conviction in terms of its interaction with Active Mitigation. Having that extra two HP slots can help tremendously in regards to making sure you always have ShoR available when you need it. Just because you have 3 HP doesn't mean you should spend it~

Mnemonic, the current implementation of Boundless Conviction feels clunky, since I can't see the "stored" HoPo. It feels like every time I get to 5 HoPo I should ShotR and immediately follow it with CS or HotR so that I'm free to ShotR or WoG at will immediately afterward if needed. Instead, I don't know until I *use* the ShotR whether or not I can do another one right afterward. I suppose I ought to be able to count them while tanking, each time I use one. Perhaps if I were a more experienced tank it wouldn't be an issue, but I have other things on my mind while tanking than working math problems. :( This also applies to Muspel and the other people who are discussing banking resources - rage and runes let you see how much you have at the time, you don't have to guess at what you can't see.
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85 Human Warrior
11430
05/03/2012 07:12 PMPosted by Mistana
Mnemonic, the current implementation of Boundless Conviction feels clunky, since I can't see the "stored" HoPo.


It is actually visible. There are two teensy tiny little lines below the HP bar that light up.

But yeah, the UI on it is effing terrible and it's *barely* visible and it's not your fault you can't see it. Hopefully they'll improve it.
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90 Human Paladin
14020
Kilandara, you're bringing up a lot of interesting points, and I agree that the current implementation of AM is very clunky on Beta right now. I disagree with you that using AM isn't rewarding or won't be noticed (or that there's no difference to the healers other than spending more mana). Tanks tend to be concerned that they "feel squishy," and taking less damage and needing less healing will make them less squishy. While you might not be able to track precisely how much of a damage reduction you had, or how much less healing you needed, you can track uptime of the buff. I agree that making it clearer would be good (I recall some similar tracking discussions about resto shaman mastery when it was introduced).

I agree that I've been using WoG less frequently on Beta than I have on live, due to it no longer having the overheal bubble, and that usually by the time I have enough HoPo for a 3 point WoG saved up, the Bastion of Glory buff is about to drop off, so I generally opt to refresh it instead.

Also, ShoTR is *ONLY* usable with 3 HoPo on beta (rather than requiring a minimum of 1 like on live), so it should be more obvious when to use it. They currently have a huge *GC proc AS now* and *Hammer of Wrath now* in the middle of the screen. I suppose they could do one for "YOU HAVE 3 HoPo YOU CAN SHotR NOW* but as people mentioned, that's an option, rather than a requirement, since they can WoG or bank the HoPo until they get to 5 instead. I don't like the change really as is, it's very intrusive and patronizing.
Edited by Mistana on 5/3/2012 7:25 PM PDT
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90 Human Paladin
14020
Ahti, I hadn't noticed it on Beta so far, I'll try to keep an eye on it. ;) Thanks for the heads-up! Anyway, the interface/tracking could definitely use some improvement, and I'll post over in the Beta forums about that issue. I definitely got caught by surprise by being *able* to do back-to-back ShotR (or ShotR/WoG) the first couple times it happened.
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85 Human Warrior
11430
05/03/2012 07:05 PMPosted by Mistana
Now that Sacred Shield affects crit of FoL rather than WoG, it doesn't seem to make sense to take it for tanking.


05/03/2012 07:05 PMPosted by Mistana
Eternal Flame competes for HoPo with our AM, so again, I doubt I'd want to take it unless a HoT was specifically needed for a particular fight, that couldn't somehow be provided by a healer.


Eternal Flame is likely to be the go-to choice for tank swap fights where you have the opportunity to bank a lot of Holy Power. Eternal Flame provides a *lot* of healing - I think last I checked it was providing something like ~3x the raw healing of a Word of Glory for the same Holy Power cost.

Sacred Shield is likely to be the go-to choice for fights where you'd really like additional survivability on yourself, but don't have the opportunity to bank a lot of Holy Power. (Although I agree that the change to FoL makes it a lot less attractive since you can't have it and Selfless Healer at the same time.)

Selfless Healer is the go-to choice for when other people in the raid may need more healing than you, or when the other two don't make sense. It's also likely to be far stronger in 10-man than 25, where it represents more of the raid's relative total throughput.

I think all three of those situations are common enough that you'll see Prot Paladins using all three talents now and then.
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90 Human Paladin
14020
On live, ShotR is a big enough DPS boost that I keep using it while the other tank has the boss, for tank-swap fights (after we accomplish the swap of course), so I'd assumed that would continue to be our HoPo bank/dump choice. You're right that on some fights Eternal Flame might make more sense though. I haven't done any raids/fights that require tank swaps on Beta yet, so I hadn't thought of that.

You're right that Sacred Shield still does have the absorb effect, but that aspect without FoL hadn't seemed as attractive as Selfless Healer. I suppose in tank-swap fights where you can hard-cast FoL and there is raid aura-type damage going out it could allow you to take advantage of both aspects as a tank. I don't know enough about the new encounters to see whether that would be a possibility.
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85 Human Warrior
11430
On live, ShotR is a big enough DPS boost that I keep using it while the other tank has the boss, for tank-swap fights (after we accomplish the swap of course), so I'd assumed that would continue to be our HoPo bank/dump choice. You're right that on some fights Eternal Flame might make more sense though. I haven't done any raids/fights that require tank swaps on Beta yet, so I hadn't thought of that.


I dunno, I use Word of Glory pretty frequently while tanking on my paladin to help top up my raid members, especially in a 10-man setting where there are only two other healers casting. In MoP I imagine that this will be only more useful with healer mana being more relevant and Eternal Flame healing for more - obviously it won't be useful in *every* situation, but it's got some use.

You're right that Sacred Shield still does have the absorb effect, but that aspect without FoL hadn't seemed as attractive as Selfless Healer. I suppose in tank-swap fights where you can hard-cast FoL and there is raid aura-type damage going out it could allow you to take advantage of both aspects as a tank. I don't know enough about the new encounters to see whether that would be a possibility.


Yeah, the FoL boost is sort of an odd choice. I'm sure that they removed the WoG boost because they realized how absurdly strong it'd be in tandem with Bastion of Glory, but honestly buffing hard-cast FoLs for ret and prot simply isn't very good.

I still think there will be times when you simply take Sacred Shield as a default - Eternal Flame costs Holy Power and Selfless Healer isn't a very big boost if you're using it for your personal survivability, since the increased effectiveness component is only functional when you cast FoL on others.
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87 Blood Elf Warrior
7810
Tanks tend to be concerned that they "feel squishy," and taking less damage and needing less healing will make them less squishy. While you might not be able to track precisely how much of a damage reduction you had, or how much less healing you needed, you can track uptime of the buff. I agree that making it clearer would be good (I recall some similar tracking discussions about resto shaman mastery when it was introduced).


This section here is something that's central to the concerns I expressed about AM earlier - that content is being balanced around a certain uptime and without that uptime you'll be "be squishy." That isn't necessarily a problem in theory but I think it definitely is going to be a problem in practice, and the reason why is because the tank AMs operate differently and will likely continue to operate differently, for 'flavor' reasons if no others, since that apparently is sufficient justification in Blizzard's eyes not to provide all tanks with defensive cooldown parity either.

The upshot is that different tanks' AMs will be better or worse for different content at the current rate. At the high end we might see this playing out like the differences between tanks in DS, where within the same raid, some fights favor some tanks over others - which is a problem in inter-tank balance, but a 10 or 25- man group of dedicated players will likely be able to find workarounds and strategies (or just do chinese fire drills with their specs). And frankly it's a problem that Blizzard has shown, via recent history, that they're simply willing to tolerate existing and leave it to the playerbase to deal with.

What concerns me about the tuning problem actually is that in 5-mans, if the content isn't balanced at a point that's so low that any AM usage is practically optional, we might see certain tanks lagging far enough behind in 5-mans that they can't readily handle the fights. There's definitely a disparity in effectiveness on the beta between shield block and shield barrier for warriors, and between SotR and WoG for paladins, so that they both remain much stronger against blockable physical attacks than unblockable and magical ones, for example.

Edit - and tanks who have to build to 3 HoPo or 60 rage before using their AMs will be starting most encounters behind the 8-ball, without access to their AM at one of the most dangerous parts of a pull, especially a trash pull - the beginning of it. When all the trash is alive and all their abilities are off cooldown and ready. I'm sure the pro top notch people don't care about 5-man trash, but for a lot of people, that's going to be most of their gameplay, and it's going to be everyone's 'introduction to endgame tanking' at 90 - doing their normals and heroics for gear. If they're feeling too squishy against Magic Damage Encounter X, or worse, getting votekicked by teams for being too weak, I don't know if they'd continue trying to tank for long. I do know they'd probably not be having a lot of fun.

Death knights will be pretty good against everything still, though, thanks to the many things Death Strike does. Maybe the solution here is to make the other tanks' AM buttons do more than one thing, or at very least, make their physical and magical AMs equally effective.
Edited by Shayia on 5/4/2012 10:32 PM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
12350
05/03/2012 07:19 PMPosted by Ahti
Sacred Shield is likely to be the go-to choice for fights where you'd really like additional survivability on yourself, but don't have the opportunity to bank a lot of Holy Power. (Although I agree that the change to FoL makes it a lot less attractive since you can't have it and Selfless Healer at the same time.)


You can throw Sacred Shield on the other tank as well when it's not on you if there's no dot effects on you.
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90 Human Paladin
14020
Shayia, I think it's positive that better skill will make tanks feel (and be) less squishy. It sounds like the regular MOP dungeons are going to be extremely easy, so won't require a lot of tank survival, but I agree that it's frustrating that we currently have no mechanic to generate HoPo at the start of a fight. The banking helps with this, if you can run to the next group with some still up, but at the start of a dungeon, or if someone needs to go afk, or if there's too far of a distance between groups, it'll decay to zero. I agree that having survivability changes be the primary "flavor" to tanking can be discouraging, and lead to a lot of groups requiring a specific class (or not wanting shield tanks).

Ahti, being able to see the "banked" HoPo is really helping smooth things out for me on Beta. I noticed that sometimes I generate HoPo from Judgement or Holy Wrath, but at other times it does not do so. This isn't the Divine Purpose proc not consuming HoPo, I hit CS or HotR, it generates its one HP, and sometimes if I hit one of those two I randomly get HoPo. I do not have the Holy Avenger talent (and only 1 not 2 is added at a time).
Edited by Mistana on 5/5/2012 6:03 PM PDT
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85 Human Warrior
11430
Judgement in MoP generates one holy power. (Holy Wrath doesn't generate any.)

http://mop.wowhead.com/spell=105424
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1 Draenei Paladin
0
Current iteration of Mastery/etc. on beta:

Divine Bulwark: Increases effectiveness of Shield of the Righteous and Bastion of Glory by X%, and increases your chance to block melee attacks by X%.

X = your mastery percentage.

I'm not sure what the "effectiveness" of Shield of the Righteous is supposed to refer to. It doesn't currently affect the damage of the ability, the duration of the buff, or the strength of the buff.
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87 Blood Elf Warrior
7810
Shayia, I think it's positive that better skill will make tanks feel (and be) less squishy. It sounds like the regular MOP dungeons are going to be extremely easy, so won't require a lot of tank survival, but I agree that it's frustrating that we currently have no mechanic to generate HoPo at the start of a fight. The banking helps with this, if you can run to the next group with some still up, but at the start of a dungeon, or if someone needs to go afk, or if there's too far of a distance between groups, it'll decay to zero. I agree that having survivability changes be the primary "flavor" to tanking can be discouraging, and lead to a lot of groups requiring a specific class (or not wanting shield tanks).


I don't know if the current state of dungeon content on the beta is going to stay the same, but if it does then it presents its own problem - tanks in 5-mans will be even more bored than they claim to be today, because 'active mitigation' is their rotation/job, and yet, outside of raids it won't matter much and there's not much impact to the player between doing well or doing poorly at it (since the one who's really going to feel the difference between a tough tank and a squishy one is the healer, moreso than the tank themselves). So if it's not important enough to be pushing tanks with decaying resources to chain pull/move faster, the mechanic is liable to end up feeling unsatisfying and pointless in 5-man content - and consequently do a bad job of preparing tanks on how to use it intelligently in raids in the future.

I already described what I felt would be the problem with having it go the other way, though, and be relevant and important in 5-mans: 'flavor' meaning tanks have different AM mechanics (and thus different AM effectiveness) will make panda's dungeons into Dragon Soul writ small, with some tanks being far preferable to some encounters over others. But due to the prevalence of magic damage as boss mechanics and for tank-busting type abilities, it will almost certainly turn out to the overall detriment of the block tanks - just like Dragon Soul.

The block tanks just plain seem to be penalized for having block.
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