MoP Paladin Tank Discussion

90 Dwarf Paladin
12265
04/25/2012 08:15 PMPosted by Xayton
Imapwn, I like the "healing tank" playstyle.


And unlike you, many of us don't. It's extremely amusing but nothing more. Look at 4.0 when all we did was WoG spam, a small number of us, myself included, we extremely vocal about how OP the self healing was. MoP looks to be the same to me.

Bastion of Glory
WoG not on a GCD
Divine Purpose
Holy Prism or Lights Hammer
Selfless healer or Eternal Flame for when you are off tanking
Divine Purpose talent

All of which is going to result in crazy amounts of healing only rivaled by DKs.


It was overpowered in Cataclysm because it wasn't exclusive with blocking, you could be CTC capped and get full block value while healing. Now if you want to spam heals on yourself you lose 10% block chance and 20% block value, which is definitely not worth it on harder content.
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1 Draenei Paladin
0
Yea, as I said in the other thread, using WoG at the RIGHT time is better than using it ALL the time. SotR buffs WoG and also gives you block chance/value, so it would be foolish to just use WoG with all of your holy power.
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1 Draenei Paladin
0
Mistana: Please remove the part about our block chance being tied to spell power. It's some sort of tooltip datamining error, and it's incredibly misleading.
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90 Tauren Paladin
8220
04/25/2012 07:57 PMPosted by Mistana
Keten, I use Righteous Defense a lot on Mannoreth, or if a DPS (or a healer) pulls a group that's at range from me while AS is on CD. I find it very helpful on those pulls where everything goes wrong and is chaotic, though I don't use it routinely except on that one fight.


I actually never thought about using it on Mannoroth. Just tried it and it does work pretty nicely on the ones that get away.
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90 Human Paladin
12965
04/25/2012 07:57 PMPosted by Mistana
Flexie, the change to WoG/GBtL (to no longer have the overhealing bubble) is going to take a big adjustment. It seems really odd in light of how much they're pushing us to use it as AM.


The fact that we depend on SotR to prop up WoG via Bastion is a strong indicator it's not meant to be our primary tool for active mitigation. Instead, it seems to fill the same purpose the redesigned Shield Barrier does for Warriors - provide something to spend excess resources on that isn't just more damage.

While I would certainly be open to alternatives for Bastion that turn WoG into an absorb shield rather than just a really big heal, I don't see this change returning us to the 4.0 state of affairs with WoG.
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90 Human Paladin
14020
Keten, they don't hit hard, but a lot of people find them unnerving, so I like to pick up as many as possible. :)

Mnemonic, I edited out of the references to scaling with Spellpower. Beta login was glitchy earlier, and I haven't had a chance to try again since.

Xayton, I totally admit I'm primarily a healer, and that I think DPSing/healing or tanking/healing simultaneously is kinda cool, but that a lot of people won't enjoy it. I'm certainly not *asking* for those changes.
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90 Tauren Paladin
8220
04/25/2012 11:28 PMPosted by Mistana
Keten, they don't hit hard, but a lot of people find them unnerving, so I like to pick up as many as possible. :)


Heh, I do go out of my way to get all of them on me. I just never thought to use Righteous Defense. (It's usually not necessary anyway, but from trying it it does seem helpful.)
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
18455
@Mistana: my problem with self-healing is that it can only be justified with a reduction in REAL tankiness. If we are healing a considerable amount, it will cost us armor, stamina, avoidance, or (most likely) some combination. Do Warriors and Bears get considerable self-healing? If not, then they will, by necessity, be much "tankier" than paladins.


All five tanks have some sort of big self heal, excepting DKs, that they use at expense of their active mitigation. Druids get Frenzied Regen (straight self heal), warriors get Shield Barrier (absorb) Monks get Guard (absorb), DKs get Death Strike, and Paladins get WoG. The biggest problem as it stands is that DKs have kinda had their self heal as their main tool of mitigation for quite a while now, while the other three tank classes (monks not inclusive) have to make a choice between healing or straight mitigation. It's turning out that they're trying to push a square peg through a round hole because they want to make all finishers viable and at the same time make it so that there's only one viable finishers (Savage Defense/Shield Block/Shield of the Righteous). Yes, it's as ridiculous as it sounds, so it's a bit messy.

Top it off with a need to hit and expertise cap and it's winding up to be a really convoluted stat mess right now. Before the change to Bastion of Glory, HASTE was the best defensive stat we could get, and I believe that's still the case for warrior and druid. Worst of all, I think paladin now has the absolutely worst Active Mitigation (Monk notwithstanding) because our "Death Strike" equivalent is propped up by ShoR while everyone else's pretty much stands on its own. When everyone else uses their AM ability, the return is practically guaranteed (or in the case of druid, they get +45% dodge or something like that, so it may as well be guaranteed). When a paladni uses ShoR, we still stand a very real chance of blocking nothing and immediately getting ruined, so a paladin's actual defensive gains will be invisible at best or catastrophic at worst.

So yea, things are going great on this model. /sarcasm
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90 Gnome Death Knight
9190
04/25/2012 08:15 PMPosted by Xayton
extremely vocal about how OP the self healing was.


I know it was definitely overpowered, so here's hoping Blizzard can balance it properly and make it work.

All I know is I just enjoyed the way I could sort of turn up my survivability a bit in different situations where it was necessary.
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1 Draenei Paladin
0
SotR's numbers will be adjusted until the ability fits the needs of the class. Right now the abstract mechanics are something I can get behind. I'll wait for the numbers to be adjusted before getting myself in a tizzy.
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85 Human Paladin
7460
Is it time for me to Chicken Little yet?

<froths at mouth a little>


hmmm.. do it anyways it'll be like comfort food to longtime tank forum readers...
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90 Human Paladin
14020
Fean and Xayton, it does look like they're moving more in the direction of all tanks having stronger self-heals.

While I do enjoy the "healing tank" playstyle, I don't want or expect Blizzard to change to cater to me, especially at the expense of more important tank "tools" or balance. However, way back when I decided I wanted to try tanking, I selected Paladin over Druid, because we can heal other people while still tanking. Druids can heal others, but not while they're in bear form.

Way back in Gnomer, I had 2 people with parachute malfunctions when we headed down to the lower floor. The healer landed on top of a group and nearly went *splat*, while a DPS floated all the way across the room, and came running back to me trailing a comet's tail of about 6 packs of mobs. I used AS, Righteous Defense, Taunt, HoP, LoH, WoG, Consecrate, and a couple HoTR, which got everyone healed back up and the mobs all under control. I was hooked. ;) The healer happened to be from my own server, and we wound up leveling together for most of our dungeons through Outlands. I've had several similarly chaotic pulls since, and 4 of those healers added me via RealID at the end of the respective dungeons.

Kilandara, I'm looking forward to seeing where they go with Pallies during the beta. I agree that as it currently stands, our AM sounds rather clunky (since you're right, we need 2 spells rather than 1). I'm willing to give it a chance and see how it plays out.
Edited by Mistana on 4/26/2012 5:26 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
18455
Kilandara, I'm looking forward to seeing where they go with Pallies during the beta. I agree that as it currently stands, our AM sounds rather clunky (since you're right, we need 2 spells rather than 1). I'm willing to give it a chance and see how it plays out.


I am too, to be honest. I think at the moment Blizzard is just kinda confused about the general feeling of things because from what I've seen, a large amount of response has been on the negative. I'm more then a little thankful that this is still way early in the beta and there's tons of resistance being met, but I think one of the biggest problems is/has been that GC at least seems to be operating under a "try it and see" as opposed to "you have legitimate points, maybe we should rethink this." It kinda just feels like there's no real leeway. BoG has shown that they do listen, just needs to be shown in GC's comments, I think.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
18455
04/26/2012 07:19 PMPosted by Feanorion
No tanks have AoE taunts? How do we clean up messes?


Warriors and Monks get AOE taunts (Banner and taunt off statue). DKs get two taunts (Death Grip and Command). Paladins and druids get to make believe they have two taunts, but really only have one.

04/26/2012 07:19 PMPosted by Feanorion
If block can not smooth out damage intake at the expense of slightly higher overall damage taken, then what's the point of it? That was the whole point of blocking: smoother damage curves.


The devs have basically come out and said that they like randomness in survivability without any sense of irony. More accurately, they like randomness within a tank's job, ignoring the fact that throughout the ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE GAME tanks have endeavored explicitly to remove all randomness from incoming damage. At least they're honest.

04/26/2012 07:19 PMPosted by Feanorion
Self-healing? I do not want to play a Holy Paladin who holds aggro.


This one's in a rough spot because every tank has had some level of self healing. Warriors have had Enraged Regeneration (which was garbage), Druids had Frenzied, Paladins had WoG, and DKs had Death Strike. Really, only paladin was lacking a legitimate self heal (again, depending on if you like to believe ER exists) up until Cata, at which point it got nerfed hilariously. Self healing is not in and of itself bad, but by the same token it's one of the few AMs that actually CAN work.

I still loathe these Diablo talent trees. Everybody will have the same freaking talents!!! Or at least access to them. And they are all so similar as to make bad choices (and by extension, good choices) almost impossible.


Now this is just my own pet peeve, but MoP trees and D3 trees are similar in concept alone. What people blissfully ignore about the D3 trees is that the tree itself constitutes EVERYTHING about your character, from skill uses, to passives, to even the skills themselves. There's no friggen way that everyone will have even remotely the same skills due to the nature of even one skill having six or seven different alternatives, and being limited to six abilities.

MoP on the other hand tries to go for that same goal without realizing that the entire toolkit is already baked into the spec, making the talents nigh on useless or just plain old bad. It is possible that the system will work, but without some fat in it (passive buffs to a stat or another) it's just gonna be a shining example of how bad WoW leveling will be (and how little choice we get).
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90 Human Paladin
8390
my problem with self-healing is that it can only be justified with a reduction in REAL tankiness.


Paladins have had more self healing than Warriors all of Cata and they were/are in a better place than Warriors for pretty much the whole expansion. DKs have lots of self healing and are better than Warriors for a couple DS fights.

04/26/2012 07:19 PMPosted by Feanorion
Everybody will have the same freaking talents!!


Go back in your hole.

Or at least access to them. And they are all so similar as to make bad choices (and by extension, good choices) almost impossible.


And stay there.
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1 Draenei Paladin
0
MoP talents aren't about making a "right" or "wrong" choice. They're about making a choice that best aligns with your gameplay preferences. Is there really a problem with that?
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