Purgatory=DK Ardent Defender? (original)

90 Troll Death Knight
0
05/05/2012 02:39 AMPosted by Paintbrush
Heroic Yor'sahj is a really niche situation, and the fight already caters enough to DKs as is. Any situation where Lichborne healing would really be effective and/or necessary is a scenario where all the other tanks would be significantly disadvantaged; imagine Thorim gauntlet sans healer and if it actually hit hard.


Thats really not the fault of lichborne though. Its more that death strike heals for a significant amount. When I have my full 4 stacks I see 80k death strike heals. Lichborne is more synonymous with using a word of glory or poping enraged regen.
Edited by Deathtime on 5/5/2012 2:46 AM PDT
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90 Troll Death Knight
0
Thats kind of the fault of healer scaling though. Lichborne isnt as useful now because healer mana largely doesnt matter. Back in T11 and kind of T12 when healer mana did matter to an extent, Lichborne is a fine. Lichborne is better when what is killing you isnt a burst of damage but either healer mana constraints or output constraints be it the purple buff from the slime, limited time frames to heal (like the breath on heroic Maloriak during the black phase.), or times where healers cant heal from either movement or stuns.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
The premise that any kind of survivability talent tier is going to unbalance Blood is faulty (I think that's what you're saying to justify removing WotN?) We can already get Lichborne on live, and it's not like it's overpowered or anything.


Any kind of half-decent survivability boost is going to be over the top. Lichborne doesn't push it over the top because Lichborne is, at this point, fairly terrible in most situations, and I highly doubt that anything they do in Pandaria will make it any less niche/sucky.

If that talent did absolutely nothing, the situation would just be Death Knights would just have both AMS and AMZ and it'd still be rofltastic.

Purgatory in and of itself isn't all THAT powerful. The DK cooldown suite is too strong. It was made to try and compensate a world where DK's go splat, and unless our goal is to return to that, having non-squishy DK's and a Razer Naga full of emergency tools is way too much.

It's not completely out of the question that AMZ might be useful on a fight with predictable high-magic damage, but I would worry that if we need AMZ for cooldown coverage, other tank classes aren't going to stand a chance (we've already got AMS on a 45 second cooldown, after all). And if AMZ becomes worth taking as a raid cooldown (which it definitely isn't if it's balanced like it is on live, but who knows how the numbers will shake out) then that results in a different set of problems which we're hopefully all familiar with by now.


It's basically going to be what the situation is with AMS now and added on to become even more hilarious for magic fights. Even if a DK won't "need" AMZ, there'd be n oreason not to take AMZ and be even more powerful against magic damage on those magic damage fights.
If it comes right down to it, the only thing that can stop AMZ from becoming the default is to have a generic alternative that offsets the choice of AMZ so that you can choose between "I want AMZ since this is magic and I want X for general purpose".
Edited by Slashlove on 5/5/2012 5:56 AM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5940
05/05/2012 05:44 AMPosted by Slashlove
Purgatory in and of itself isn't all THAT powerful. The DK cooldown suite is too strong.


Purgatory is quite powerful in a situation where rapid tank death is a possibility. If I trigger Purgatory once every five minutes or less, I can chain VB and two massive Death Strikes together and probably heal myself for more than half my health, before even considering anything else (Healthstones, Rune Tap, Death Pact, potions). On live, this isn't as valuable as it might sound like if you just read a description of the Blood DK kit without actually playing one; if you survive a damage spike then you probably receive a heal shortly afterwards and you'll just end up overhealing yourself. Purgatory effectively lets you go into negative hit points though, and at that point DKs' ability to self heal rapidly interacts very strongly with it.

Even if a DK won't "need" AMZ, there'd be n oreason not to take AMZ and be even more powerful against magic damage on those magic damage fights.


In a world where Purgatory still exists as is, there are certainly magic damage fights where I'd rather have it than AMZ. If we're talking about some kind of low-frequency highly predictable magical Impale then sure, AMZ becomes an alright choice (although again, we probably already have to tools to survive that situation, so I'm not sure that AMZ's existence actually makes us significantly more powerful in that scenario).

If we're talking about something more like Nefarian's breath attack or Yor'sahj's shadow bolts though, I'd rather have Purgatory. If something happens pretty frequently but has a relatively low likelihood of killing you, the cooldown that only activates when you definitely need it becomes a lot more useful than one that you have to use predictively.

Just so we're clear, because I'm not sure if you're aware of this: AMZ really doesn't absorb very much damage in the context of a raid encounter. Right now on my 85 DK on beta it absorbs 40k damage, or about 20% of my health, and there's no particular reason to think that its scaling will change significantly. So for personal use during a raid encounter it's a ~20% health increase that only works against magic damage on a 2 minute CD. Useful, sure, but not overly so.
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90 Tauren Warrior
10125
I said it once and I'll say it again: I find it mildly hilarious that most of the experienced DKs are saying that this is a bad idea, and the people defending it are by and large non-dks.


Migol, why are you even throwing in the healthstone and the potion in here. Paladins can do that too. The only thing that is relavent is the rune tap and the deathstrike. Which comparing a 30% heal for what I am guess your dk has roughly 180k health is 54k heal. Which is about even with the heal from rune tap and deathstrike and thats not factoring in whatever amount of overkill we would have to overcome that the pally ignores outright.

Umm, I'm not even including Paladins in the discussion, because the current Paladin AD (while still being quite powerful for a secondary cd) is no longer what it was originally (IE it got nerfed hard because it was OP on release). Again, Purgatory is -automatic-, it's not a cooldown in terms of being activated like the current AD.

My macro is designed to abuse a mod yelling "Purgatory has Proc'd on Redplague" to the raid. I go from being negative health to quite far back in the positive, WITH a large blood shield against melee, the vamp blood healing buff and it's extra health. And as I noted, this wasn't even the best case scenario with a glyphed vamp blood, raid buffs, and having been knocked to negative by a giant boss hit; you could even GHOUL SAC for redonkulus gains if the boss hit is timed.

In terms of my point on whether Purgatory fits or WotN fits better, you apparently sailed well past the boat when I said "The focus shouldn't be "DK's have great cd's, add Purgatory, OMG Purgatory is OP, remove purgtory"".

In other words, just because they added Purgatory doesn't mean that Purgatory is the thing they should remove (necessarily)


Except that Purgatory is the thing that is potentially gamebreaking. WotN won't save you from going negative, it'll save you from close shaves sometimes (but so will things other tanks have). Purgatory -always- gives you at least one second chance per fight, where any other tank has no such thing and dies. Yes, there'll be times you can't take advantage of that second chance, but it's not hard to see it working, and moreover as has been noted this ability just synergies way too well with the current cooldowns and self healing. Moreover there's just a lot of potential for abuse on the ability (making 2 tank fights 1-tankable with a DK for example), where there is none for WotN.

I mean think of this: You're trying to defend it by saying that if blizzard specifically remembers to code encounters against it working, it won't be overpowered. They obviously forgot impale and AD till after it got to live. And their track record on other fights is sporadic at best, sometimes they fix things (Alys for DKs, Madness for Pally AD), and sometimes they don't (heroic beth for dks, block tanks on anub, etc).
Edited by Migol on 5/5/2012 11:45 AM PDT
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90 Tauren Warrior
10125
05/05/2012 11:25 AMPosted by Paintbrush
AD isn't a powerful cooldown at all. It lets you cheese some mechanics, but 20% on a 3 minute cooldown is far from powerful.


Right, I'm just saying for a secondary cooldown it's powerful. Not saying it's OP by any margin.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Purgatory is quite powerful in a situation where rapid tank death is a possibility. If I trigger Purgatory once every five minutes or less, I can chain VB and two massive Death Strikes together and probably heal myself for more than half my health, before even considering anything else (Healthstones, Rune Tap, Death Pact, potions). On live, this isn't as valuable as it might sound like if you just read a description of the Blood DK kit without actually playing one; if you survive a damage spike then you probably receive a heal shortly afterwards and you'll just end up overhealing yourself. Purgatory effectively lets you go into negative hit points though, and at that point DKs' ability to self heal rapidly interacts very strongly with it.


And as ncie as that is, you've now sunk TWO cooldowns, not just one. In a world where DK's don't have infinity cooldowns, that would leave you with just IBF and nothing else, and not be viable. Stuff like Rune Tap are nice, but not really special.

If we're talking about something more like Nefarian's breath attack or Yor'sahj's shadow bolts though, I'd rather have Purgatory. If something happens pretty frequently but has a relatively low likelihood of killing you, the cooldown that only activates when you definitely need it becomes a lot more useful than one that you have to use predictively.

Just so we're clear, because I'm not sure if you're aware of this: AMZ really doesn't absorb very much damage in the context of a raid encounter. Right now on my 85 DK on beta it absorbs 40k damage, or about 20% of my health, and there's no particular reason to think that its scaling will change significantly. So for personal use during a raid encounter it's a ~20% health increase that only works against magic damage on a 2 minute CD. Useful, sure, but not overly so.


You would have purgatory if it was random. In the case of Yor, you have a limited sequence of things to account for, and AMZ would work brilliant in the nature of that fight, but that's a different story I'm not going to get into. You seem to miss my point here though.

Let's say Tier 2 has Lichborne, AMZ and a talent that is so useless it has no impact whatsoever. We'll call this Lacerate (Hunters know what I mean).
Lichborne will almost never be worth it, Lacerate is useless, and therefore regardless of badly you need it or not, you're free to use AMZ. Now, AMZ isn't earth shattering. But, it's more magic reduction that can be piled on top of the magic reduction tools already available. Considering a 20% cooldown was enough for things like Nef Breath or Heroic Permafrost, and since it adds on top of all the other cooldowns including Anti-Magic-Shell, it is kinda a fairly impactful grab.

You use examples like Nef's Shadowflame Breath, but that's where AMZ would have made even more of an impact, because it's more cooldowns, especially around the Electrocute point. At that stage of the fight, healer mana was a nonissue as well - I know our healers GAINED mana in that part of the fight, and the only thing to do was heal tanks and break Dominion instantly.

Except that Purgatory is the thing that is potentially gamebreaking. WotN won't save you from going negative, it'll save you from close shaves sometimes (but so will things other tanks have). Purgatory -always- gives you at least one second chance per fight, where any other tank has no such thing and dies.


Purgatory by itself isn't gamebreaking. It's a reactive tool on a class designed to be reactive. The reason it goes over the top is that it's atm added on top of an already powerful cooldown suite. That is the ONLY reason it's over the top. If DK's had a cooldown package that remembled Warriors, it would be a flavourful add. It's not really that powerful.

You're trying to defend it by saying that if blizzard specifically remembers to code encounters against it working. it won't be overpowered. They obviously forgot impale and AD till after it got to live. And their track record on other fights is sporadic at best, sometimes they fix things (Alys for DKs, Madness for Pally AD), and sometimes they don't (heroic beth for dks, block tanks on anub, etc).


What? The only reference I made to code was that Impale pierces every death-stopping effect. That's how it's coded. Impale has always gone through AD on Heroic mode, they didn't have to go around tryign to fix it.

You're degenerating into ranting about things that have nothing to do with the thread now.
Edited by Slashlove on 5/5/2012 4:16 PM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5940
05/05/2012 04:14 PMPosted by Slashlove
And as ncie as that is, you've now sunk TWO cooldowns, not just one. In a world where DK's don't have infinity cooldowns, that would leave you with just IBF and nothing else, and not be viable


VB is a 1 minute cooldown. "Sinking" it is not that big a deal most of the time. Using VB and ERW to respond to a spike is also something that happens on live, and it's even something that happened in T12 when we were considered relatively weak (i.e. the ability to do that hasn't made us overpowered historically). So again, I don't understand why you think that the problem is with DKs' cooldowns in general rather than with Purgatory itself.

Yes, you could nerf several of the abilities we already have in order to make up for this new talent, but why is that a logical route? Nerf the thing that caused the problem to arise, not the stuff we've been using for a year largely without issue.

Let's say Tier 2 has Lichborne, AMZ and a talent that is so useless it has no impact whatsoever. We'll call this Lacerate (Hunters know what I mean).
Lichborne will almost never be worth it, Lacerate is useless, and therefore regardless of badly you need it or not, you're free to use AMZ. Now, AMZ isn't earth shattering. But, it's more magic reduction that can be piled on top of the magic reduction tools already available. Considering a 20% cooldown was enough for things like Nef Breath or Heroic Permafrost, and since it adds on top of all the other cooldowns including Anti-Magic-Shell, it is kinda a fairly impactful grab.


I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Are you saying that if Purgatory didn't exist, we'd take AMZ for a lot of fights, and that it wouldn't be valueless? Sure, I don't disagree with that. I don't really understand what follows from that though.
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90 Night Elf Death Knight
12055
Er... aren't we already losing Lichborne+DC to take this? I mean, they're in the same tier. We're gaining flexibility, sure, and flexibility is power, but you can't say we're keeping all the old cooldowns and just gaining purgatory.
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5940
05/06/2012 01:25 AMPosted by Krinu
Er... aren't we already losing Lichborne+DC to take this? I mean, they're in the same tier. We're gaining flexibility, sure, and flexibility is power, but you can't say we're keeping all the old cooldowns and just gaining purgatory.


Purgatory is a lot more powerful than Lichborne in a typical boss fight though (i.e. one that doesn't have some mechanic that specifically makes Lichborne powerful, like Yorsahj's purple debuff).
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90 Troll Death Knight
0
05/06/2012 12:59 PMPosted by Anothriel
Er... aren't we already losing Lichborne+DC to take this? I mean, they're in the same tier. We're gaining flexibility, sure, and flexibility is power, but you can't say we're keeping all the old cooldowns and just gaining purgatory.


Purgatory is a lot more powerful than Lichborne in a typical boss fight though (i.e. one that doesn't have some mechanic that specifically makes Lichborne powerful, like Yorsahj's purple debuff).


Well no. Purgatory only helps when there is something that takes out most of your health in a short period of time like a breath/melee combo. Lichborne is helpful all the other times when damage is more consistant.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
05/06/2012 01:28 PMPosted by Deathtime
Well no. Purgatory only helps when there is something that takes out most of your health in a short period of time like a breath/melee combo. Lichborne is helpful all the other times when damage is more consistant.


In my personal experience, I've used Lichborne about the same way I use Death Pact: in scenarios where you take a huge amount of damage in a short period of time AND Death Strike is not up.

In that regard, Purgatory is significantly better. If I used Lichborne and didn't die, then if I had Purgatory, I also wouldn't die. If I used Lichborne and did die (because DC is bound by the GCD), then Purgatory (most likely) would have saved me.
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90 Troll Death Knight
0
I tend to use Deathpact like you said but I use Lichborne a bit differently. I use Lichborne for something like Heroic Zonozz where I can have a CD up for all the breaths easily so all I have to deal with is his melees towards the end of the normal phase so like

Melee hit
Lichborne DC
Melee hit
DC
Melee hit
DC

With DS scattered in there. I find it really helps when healers are moving for the ball and so they dont have their full output availabl and IBF is down. We do 7-7-7 for ball stacks so I do IBF the first one, Lichborne and Ghoul out for the second one for emergency Deathpact and IBF for the 3rd.
Edited by Deathtime on 5/6/2012 1:53 PM PDT
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85 Orc Death Knight
9425
tbh the only time i personally have found lb remotely useful/warranted is if there is damage going out and your not in melee range of anything-otherwise your better off with ds. Even then I haven't come across a scenario where i have been damn if only i had lb. Last time i've had it for progression was h-beth.

that being said I think other than "maybe" how purgatory interacts with with wotn- it is perfectly fine as is-regardless of what the qq-ers say.

Also on a side note yes dps can and probably will bring amz (tooltip has it around 80k-ish on beta) but we still have to make a choice if it ends up being needed -while i know at least prot pallies/warriors get thiers baseline atm. not necessarily gamebreaking or anything but Seems to be "overlooked" so people can qq and make a point.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
VB is a 1 minute cooldown. "Sinking" it is not that big a deal most of the time. Using VB and ERW to respond to a spike is also something that happens on live, and it's even something that happened in T12 when we were considered relatively weak (i.e. the ability to do that hasn't made us overpowered historically). So again, I don't understand why you think that the problem is with DKs' cooldowns in general rather than with Purgatory itself.

Yes, you could nerf several of the abilities we already have in order to make up for this new talent, but why is that a logical route? Nerf the thing that caused the problem to arise, not the stuff we've been using for a year largely without issue.


That's kind of my point. Sinking 2 cooldowns isn't that big of a deal because there's a crapload of them. For anyone else, sinking 2 cooldowns in one shot is huge because it leaves you with just the big cd, and if nothing happens for a minute, you'll have your 1-min back up again.

The problem was already there. Purgatory is just the newest incarnation of what's in that talent tier, which if you go as far back as the original stuff, had Bone Shield.

It's the age-old debate once again - you can't have a class with extra cooldowns that were put it for a time when they were more squishy if you're in a world where they aren't squishy, and if Pandaria DK's go live in a version where they're just as relatively squishy as they are in Cataclysm, that's one failed design move all over again.

I'm not sure what you're arguing here. Are you saying that if Purgatory didn't exist, we'd take AMZ for a lot of fights, and that it wouldn't be valueless? Sure, I don't disagree with that. I don't really understand what follows from that though.


I'm saying if you take out Purgatory and leave everything as-is, DK's are still a potential issue situation because not only are we going to enter a situation that Blizzard have no hope of balancing properly from the onset, the magic niche would be even more pronounced because you're adding tons of cooldowns on top of the freebie AMS on top of AMZ, and it's a recipe for loltastic magic fights. Again. A concept that needs to die.

Since Bone Shield is a 1-min cooldown, IBF is the big cd, the most logical thing would be to cut AMS, swap VB to that talent tier, and one of WotN/Purgatory baseline, or keep VB baseline and move either WotN or Rune Tap to the talent tree. And with that, bring DK baseline mitigation/AM ratios closer into the curve.
Edited by Slashlove on 5/6/2012 11:13 PM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
5940
For anyone else, sinking 2 cooldowns in one shot is huge because it leaves you with just the big cd, and if nothing happens for a minute, you'll have your 1-min back up again.


Are you counting ERW as a cooldown? It's not a cooldown in the traditional sense, any more than Divine Plea is (on live; don't know if Shield of the Templar still exists in MoP). It's an ex post facto emergency resource button. We can't use it to soak heavy hits, and if you remove it then our ability to respond to new adds adds or other unexpected situations is severely impacted.

It's the age-old debate once again - you can't have a class with extra cooldowns that were put it for a time when they were more squishy if you're in a world where they aren't squishy


As it stands right now, we're still squishy in the same sense that we were in Cataclysm. Our overall damage reduction is fine (it was in Cata too), but with near-100% uptime on Shield Block and Savage Defense, we're still going to end up being spiky if other classes' mechanics don't get changed (and really, 100% SD will probably break boss design wide open on its own, but that's another story). And even if we weren't, Vampiric Blood of all things is not going to make the difference between balanced and overpowered.

the magic niche would be even more pronounced because you're adding tons of cooldowns on top of the freebie AMS on top of AMZ, and it's a recipe for loltastic magic fights. Again. A concept that needs to die.


I don't disagree that AMS probably needs to be nerfed for Blood (well, I'd prefer if stuff like Shield Barrier just got buffed instead, but whatever). That's got almost nothing to do with Purgatory though; even if you took out all our real cooldowns, plus WotN for the sake of argument, and left us with nothing but ERW, Purgatory as a talent would still be far too strong.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
0
I see Purgatory as a cata-era answer to early/mid cata-era DK problems. Problems that the majority of us are hoping are NOT continued into MoP.

I'm not sure how confident I am seeing this talent pop up this late into MoP beta. Is the "reality check" stage of the development process that FAR out of sync??
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