Comment on Blizz rep response to Human Racial

100 Dwarf Hunter
18040
The problem with nerfing it is that after it's nerfed horde will completely dominate in the area of PvP and PvE racials. Making it even more unbalanced than it is now.
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100 Human Warrior
11755
Lol, apparently Blizzard is accepting the bullcrap the Human players have been feeding them.

This is the difference between Blood Fury and EMFH to me. The difference is likely still at least 5x working from the start of the expansion.

Cataclysmic Gladiator's Insignia of Victory: 1452 strength proc, lasts 20 seconds and has an internal cooldown of 45 seconds. Optimal conditions allow for an average of +638.88 strength per second.

Blood Fury: 1169 attack power (or 584.5 in strength*), lasts 15 seconds and has an on-use cooldown of 120 seconds. Optimal conditions allow for an average of +73.0625 strength per second.

*Note that these gains are not affected by Blessing of Kings/Mark of the Wild AND Plate Specialization, while the Insignia is.

So even before taking into consideration the lack of synergy with strength modifiers, Cataclysmic Gladiator's Insignia of Victory is worth more than EIGHT TIMES the strength that Blood Fury is.


Why are you comparing the proc version versus the on-use trinket?
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100 Goblin Warlock
17375
Lol, apparently Blizzard is accepting the bullcrap the Human players have been feeding them.

This is the difference between Blood Fury and EMFH to me. The difference is likely still at least 5x working from the start of the expansion.

Cataclysmic Gladiator's Insignia of Victory: 1452 strength proc, lasts 20 seconds and has an internal cooldown of 45 seconds. Optimal conditions allow for an average of +638.88 strength per second.

Blood Fury: 1169 attack power (or 584.5 in strength*), lasts 15 seconds and has an on-use cooldown of 120 seconds. Optimal conditions allow for an average of +73.0625 strength per second.

*Note that these gains are not affected by Blessing of Kings/Mark of the Wild AND Plate Specialization, while the Insignia is.

So even before taking into consideration the lack of synergy with strength modifiers, Cataclysmic Gladiator's Insignia of Victory is worth more than EIGHT TIMES the strength that Blood Fury is.


Why are you comparing the proc version versus the on-use trinket?


Even the on use version will have similar difference.

Honestly leave EMFH alone. Buff the other racials to be a percent of your CURRENT stat and make blood fury a percent increase to str/agi/int/spr rather than AP/SP.
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100 Goblin Warlock
17375
04/27/2012 11:45 AMPosted by Necralia
It's tough, cause you can't really quantify the potency of a stun, silence, or even reduced stun duration. If Blizz made a trinket that was 484 resil + AoE stun/silence you might look at the trade off a little differently.


Honestly it would be cool if you could get a resilience trinket that duplicated 1 racial and had a bunch of them to choose from.
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85 Human Paladin
3895
@Ex

Not everyone gets double AP from their stat, for str users Blood Fury should probably be +str since they are balanced around a higher AP conversion. You're also probably gaining expertise from your racial too, whereas on my human warlock I don't get the benefit of weapon specialization talents. EMFH is the only racial that really even does anything for me. 15% stun reduction, 5% pet damage, and a mini trinket are much more appealing to me as a package. If there was an alliance version of orcs, I'd pay for a switch in a heartbeat. ESPECIALLY for PvE, where horde racials win almost across the board.

Remember in PvE, YOU are the one with the extra trinket. I know this thread is focused on PvP, but it's something to think about. If you're truly interested in balanced racials, be ready to give up that PvE advantage you've enjoyed for the last 7-8 years. That's why I say the whole system needs an overhaul before you start picking apart the few strengths alliance racials actually have.
04/27/2012 12:38 PMPosted by Notdeadfredi
Great Job taking what I said out of Context


What was the rest of your context? You mention facts, but the only facts you can provide are representation. You can't quantify the power of stuns, silences, stun reduction etc., there is no clear cut "fact" that proves anything. Just some narrow statistics, which as I pointed out already have exceptions within the handful of examples you listed. I wonder how many more exceptions you'd find if you expanded the scope of the survey?

04/27/2012 12:38 PMPosted by Notdeadfredi
If you want to keep adding more unsupported theories keep at it, but understand without any evidence they're just your theories


I'm not so much providing my own theories as poking holes in yours. Your main assertion here is that to be competitive you MUST be human/UD if the class allows for it. Anyone who is serious about PvP and has a good brain in their head would go human because it's obviously head and shoulders above all the other options. And yet, even in this tiny sliver of the most elite and competitive population you have provided, there is a NE priest. He's not just an outlier, his existence flat out proves your point wrong. I'm sure he's reasonably intelligent, obviously great at PvP, and probably has the $15 to change his race...so why didn't he? He either felt the NE racials would be more helpful to him, or he didn't think it was a big enough deal to shell out $15 over. Both contradict everything you've tried to say, it's no wonder you just dismiss it as some kind of freak accident.

I'm done with this thread cause we're obviously spinning our wheels now. If I could leave you with one last thought, imagine for a second EMFH is removed. Now imagine a ladder full of worgen, cause that's likely what you'd get until Blizz fixes ALL the racials. Then what...you'd use that as proof that worgen are OP too? Your argument and "proof" are just bad. I'm with Blizz, force PvE trinkets out of PvP by all means...but as someone who already uses double PvP trinkets, EMFH itself doesn't feel like the massive advantage you claim. It just keeps me from feeling like a moron for clicking "human" like I did before EMFH was implemented.
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85 Gnome Death Knight
5405
this is a flawed discussion for the obvious reason that "racials", by very concept, can't be fair. having the same exact abilities across the board would be invariably fair, but that wouldn't be very interesting.
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1 Gnome Warrior
0
I dont get why its so horrible that humans have the best PvP racial, but its okay for horde to have VASTLY superior PvE racials.

Goblin, Troll, and Orc are all better than worgen(alliance best pve racial) for dps.

I cant say whether or not alliance has better pve racials for tanking or healing, but the dps disparity is really unfair.

I guess the pvp community is a lot more vocal, but yeah.

If they wanted to change EMFH to keep it appealing but not a "free trinket", they could make it a 5min cooldown, but not share a cd with normal pvp trinkets. Thats still pretty good, but at least humans would wear pvp trinkets.

Here's the thing, if they just gave everyone EMFH then humans could get a racial that helps them in pve like a % increase to stats every 2 min, or something like that. Its a win-win. PVEers could be human and now have a decent pve racial. IMO EMFH should be baseline, I can't fathom why anyone would disagree with this.
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85 Night Elf Druid
4280
Because humans cant be all the classes? If they take away EMFH which I don't care, I would hope that it would be the first step in rebalancing the racials, because at least for pve we be shafted.
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1 Gnome Warrior
0
Also @necralia, if EMFH isn't that great then you obviously wouldn't be opposed to all races having it and Humans getting a racial to compensate.
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1 Gnome Warrior
0
04/27/2012 05:36 PMPosted by Vevul
Because humans cant be all the classes? If they take away EMFH which I don't care, I would hope that it would be the first step in rebalancing the racials, because at least for pve we be shafted.


When you say "we" do you mean NEs or humans? NEs are really decent tanks, and if they compensated humans with a diff racial after giving everyone EMFH I can't see how this wouldn't be a boon to human pvers
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1 Gnome Warrior
0
But if you want to know why I think they don't just give EMFH to all classes baseline and give humans a diff racial is because of (/tinfoil hat time) money. Same reason they don't merge low pop servers imo, mmm dat green stuff.
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100 Goblin Warlock
17375
04/27/2012 05:38 PMPosted by Tonkatoy
Also @necralia, if EMFH isn't that great then you obviously wouldn't be opposed to all races having it and Humans getting a racial to compensate.


They would have to give 2 racials or 1 really powerful racial to compensate. Goblins have 2 good pve/pvp racials. Orcs have 2 good pve and 3 good pvp racials. Seperately they aren't as strong or even close to EMFH, but if they gave all races emfh(dumb idea), they would have to give humans 2 racials or more to compensate if they leave the others unchanged.
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1 Gnome Warrior
0
04/27/2012 06:06 PMPosted by Purebalance
Also @necralia, if EMFH isn't that great then you obviously wouldn't be opposed to all races having it and Humans getting a racial to compensate.


They would have to give 2 racials or 1 really powerful racial to compensate. Goblins have 2 good pve/pvp racials. Orcs have 2 good pve and 3 good pvp racials. Seperately they aren't as strong or even close to EMFH, but if they gave all races emfh(dumb idea), they would have to give humans 2 racials or more to compensate if they leave the others unchanged.

Give them racials that are on par with most others, the racials need an overhaul anyways and now is the time to do it. Also a lot of people think EMFH should be baseline so idk why you say that it's a dumb idea.
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100 Dwarf Hunter
18040
Like I said in my earlier post, if racials were just changed to change EMFH to something else racials would be balanced even worse than they are now. Horde would be dominating on the PvP and PvE side of things.

If and only if all racials are balanced out so that there is an equally powerful PvP and PvE distribution to both sides, then EMFH should be allowed to be changed.

I am just tired of all the horde QQers coming in saying EMFH is stupidly OP when horde have the next 6 best PvP ability racials and the top 4 PvE ability racials on top of that. Any horde coming in just wanting a change to EMFH is ignorant. There needs to be changes to most racials on both sides. I'm tired of my horde counterpart getting a miniature rapid fire while I get lolstoneform for PvE. Then on top of that they get crit chance on bows while I get crit chance on guns, and guess how many raid viable guns there were this xpac? One! It's an extremely low drop chance from dragon soul mobs and by the time I saw it drop I already had the madness of deathwing heroic... guess what... BOW! It's ridiculous.

Racials need to be changed on both sides, not just EMFH.
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Take a look at the Alliance RBG ladder, this shows all classes that CAN be a human

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/battlegrounds/?minRating=&specType=filter&battleGroup=&realm=&page=1&maxRating=&spec=6%2C3%2C8%2C2%2C5%2C4%2C9%2C1&characterName=&faction=0

Out of the top 500 players, 448 are human. It's obviously the best, which means it is not balanced. (Overpowered)
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04/27/2012 03:09 PMPosted by Lendy
this is a flawed discussion for the obvious reason that "racials", by very concept, can't be fair. having the same exact abilities across the board would be invariably fair, but that wouldn't be very interesting.


Every other racial in the game is accepted as "fair" for the most part. Human is the only one that gets loads of complaints for valid reasons

Like I said in my earlier post, if racials were just changed to change EMFH to something else racials would be balanced even worse than they are now. Horde would be dominating on the PvP and PvE side of things.

If and only if all racials are balanced out so that there is an equally powerful PvP and PvE distribution to both sides, then EMFH should be allowed to be changed.


Thinking a bit too hard there, it just needs to be changed to something that does not give them a free trinket slot, like for a rough example, it only removes stun and incapacitate effects on a 1 min 30s CD.
Edited by Dran on 4/28/2012 4:15 PM PDT
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100 Goblin Warlock
17375
Take a look at the Alliance RBG ladder, this shows all classes that CAN be a human

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/pvp/battlegrounds/?minRating=&specType=filter&battleGroup=&realm=&page=1&maxRating=&spec=6%2C3%2C8%2C2%2C5%2C4%2C9%2C1&characterName=&faction=0

Out of the top 500 players, 448 are human. It's obviously the best, which means it is not balanced. (Overpowered)


EMFH is not overpowered. The other racials are underpowered. EMFH scales with each tier. The others do not. Make the other racials scale and BAM fixed.
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100 Human Paladin
19405
Give all races an "EMFH", just with different names per race. Remove all the trinkets that remove effects, since they are no longer needed.

Next, remove all other on use racials. As long as there are different on use racials, there will always be people whining about it. Always. If you just remove EMFH then you're gonna get whines about the next most powerful racial (which may be YOUR race) and the cycle will continue.

Give each race a couple weapon bonuses, like some races currently have. Using these weapons grants extra expertise (even ranged, since ranged weapons now need expertise). Keep the current ones (Humans with swords and maces, Orcs with axes and fist weapons, etc.) and give races that don't have them a couple that fit the race.

Give each race a bonus to a certain secondary stat, like Spirit for Humans, Crit for Worgen, Haste for Goblins, etc..

And give each race a fun flavor PvE racial like Diplomacy for Humans.

Then you'll only have a couple minor PvP differences when you choose a race. If that fails, remove ALL the damn racial bonuses.
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