Resto Questions..... (Haste / Talent)

90 Pandaren Shaman
9250
OK, so I got into some discussions with another Resto shaman last night, and he told me several things that I have been unable to located on the web today, so I was hoping someone could give me some specific answers..

Haste Breakpoints:

I know the bonus tick of Riptide is at 2005 But is that also for another tick of Healing Rain? What is the Healing Rain Tick breakpoint?

The only solid info I could find is here.. and I am not positive if this is up to date..

http://elitistjerks.com/f79/t121202-resto_raiding_4_1_updating_4_3_a/#Haste

SECOND QUESTION:

I was told that Totemic Focus no longer effects Mana Tide Totem.. I cannot find anywhere that this is backed up.. Does anyone have any info on this?

"Reduces the mana cost of your totems by 30% and increases their duration by 40%."

Thanks for the help on this guys!
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90 Orc Shaman
10495
2005 gives an extra tick to Riptide only. The next breakpoint for HR is slightly over the 3k haste level, around 3050 or so for non goblins, some 2880 for goblins.

As for TF, I'm pretty sure it does as mine lasts around 16-17 seconds in game, iirc, which is 40% more than its original 12s duration.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9250
04/27/2012 11:15 AMPosted by Korghal
As for TF, I'm pretty sure it does as mine lasts around 16-17 seconds in game, iirc, which is 40% more than its original 12s duration.


Confirmed.. I just went in and played with it.. 12s without the talent and 16.80s with the talent.
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90 Pandaren Shaman
0
I know the bonus tick of Riptide is at 2005 But is that also for another tick of Healing Rain? What is the Healing Rain Tick breakpoint?


a lot of people talk about the breakpoint around 1300 for extra ticks with SWG active
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85 Draenei Shaman
11210
More haste helps you weave Lightning Bolts in easier for mana from Telluric Currents, but it doesn't directly improve mana gain, just makes it easier to get from it. Makes it useful for that!

Totemic Focus totally works for Mana Tide and Spirit Link totems, so it's a spectacular talent.
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90 Orc Shaman
15810
04/28/2012 04:28 PMPosted by Xoj
Based on your armory it looks like you are raiding heroics, so I will tell you what worked best for me (I have been 8/8H for quite some time now). Hit the 916 haste cap and stop there for haste completely. Going for the next cap which is Riptide is not that beneficial from what I have found. Reforge everything else (except spirit) to mastery. Now here is the downside, your healing output will look horrible for the first 4 fights of DS, but the last 4 fights the mastery comes into play and is real nice. This is because your healing rain will be used a lot more and your chain heal will actually hit the people that need it the most. In my raid, our top healer is a resto druid and he destroys me on every fight except Warmaster and Spine (not including ultraxion). On Warmaster we are about even, and on heroic Spine I blow him and the priest out of the water. I have heroic heart of unliving so I did reforge out about 300 or so spirit to crit just to play around with, thats up to you, since the only fight that you may have mana issues on (atleast for me) was heroic madness. Let me know if you wanna chat in game or vent.


So since the OP was answered and so that there is less spam, I'll post my questions here and ask ya some stuff. Not trying to hijack your topic at all :(.

I got rid of my enh spec (I never use it) and made a second resto spec for spine (the one that I am using now). I reforged everything I could into spirit and crit since I didn't really see how mastery would be strong here if we were clearing the debuffs at a decent rate (though it still seems like mastery would kick !@# for the rolls). I got to 1290 haste as well since that is an obvious choice here.

My question is, what do you think about the reforges specifically for spine? Did you experiment with crit at all for the fight? I know you mentioned briefly you did but how did it turn out? I am debating whether to push my reforges back into mastery or not... but no idea as of now (just for this one fight, not the others).

Also, regarding the spec, I went ahead and picked up FI along with improved cleanse spirit over the +18% healing to an ES target just because... I don't see the point in it. I mean we can't reliably ES swap like a pally can beacon swap because it costs a ton of mana. That is why I dropped that talent. I also took a point out of BotE and AA since those don't seem terribly useful for spine. Just wanted to ask ya what you think about this. Thanks!
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90 Goblin Shaman
9385
04/28/2012 04:28 PMPosted by Xoj
Based on your armory it looks like you are raiding heroics, so I will tell you what worked best for me (I have been 8/8H for quite some time now). Hit the 916 haste cap and stop there for haste completely. Going for the next cap which is Riptide is not that beneficial from what I have found. Reforge everything else (except spirit) to mastery. Now here is the downside, your healing output will look horrible for the first 4 fights of DS, but the last 4 fights the mastery comes into play and is real nice. This is because your healing rain will be used a lot more and your chain heal will actually hit the people that need it the most. In my raid, our top healer is a resto druid and he destroys me on every fight except Warmaster and Spine (not including ultraxion). On Warmaster we are about even, and on heroic Spine I blow him and the priest out of the water. I have heroic heart of unliving so I did reforge out about 300 or so spirit to crit just to play around with, thats up to you, since the only fight that you may have mana issues on (atleast for me) was heroic madness. Let me know if you wanna chat in game or vent.


Hey i got an off the subject topic for you...Would it be better to drop Improved Shields for Focused Insight? Or do you really not have time to toss flame shocks around when you get to heroic ship/spine/dw? It does effect HR and seems to be better use of the 3 points put into Imp Shields....Just wondering if you played around with it or not...
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85 Troll Druid
3585
honestly it depends on the fight, some fights ull want the extra HoT ticks, other fights they arent so helpful and u will just dump everything for full mastery

the SWG HR haste breakpoint is prob the one u should shoot for on most fights, 2005 (riptide) makes very little healing increase, HR/CH is the bulk of our healing now, especially in 25man

04/30/2012 02:27 AMPosted by Bloodweaver
Hey i got an off the subject topic for you...Would it be better to drop Improved Shields for Focused Insight? Or do you really not have time to toss flame shocks around when you get to heroic ship/spine/dw?


most free GCDs will be used for lightning bolt to get mana back, so FI loses a lot of its use
one of the main roles of HR (atleast in 25man) is for the procs it provides (ELW, AF, vigor)

04/28/2012 04:28 PMPosted by Xoj
since the only fight that you may have mana issues on (atleast for me) was heroic madness


how do u have mana problems on madness? u can dump 100% of ur mana per platform and TC back to 100% in like 10 sec, virtually unlimited mana on that fight is one of the reasons why shamans are very strong healers on that fight, prob the top healer

04/29/2012 10:06 PMPosted by Gardiff
Also, regarding the spec, I went ahead and picked up FI along with improved cleanse spirit over the +18% healing to an ES target just because... I don't see the point in it. I mean we can't reliably ES swap like a pally can beacon swap because it costs a ton of mana.


chain healing through an ES increases the healing done by 18% making it a very nice talent on aoe stacked healing fights

04/29/2012 10:06 PMPosted by Gardiff
My question is, what do you think about the reforges specifically for spine?


for spine u want to stack haste, since its the most TC heavy fight, with a lot of raid dmg goin out as well, so cast count really makes a huge difference
for madness u will still want to maintain a decent amount haste aswell, since the yellow buff really helps with extra hot ticks
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90 Pandaren Shaman
0
04/29/2012 10:06 PMPosted by Gardiff
My question is, what do you think about the reforges specifically for spine?


reforging for crit was done early in spine progression (think pre 5% nerf/pre 20% tendon health nerf) because you couldn't afford the time needed to use TC. Standard reforging is advocated for spine now because it is more forgiving.
04/30/2012 02:27 AMPosted by Bloodweaver
Would it be better to drop Improved Shields for Focused Insight? Or do you really not have time to toss flame shocks around when you get to heroic ship/spine/dw? It does effect HR and seems to be better use of the 3 points put into Imp Shields....Just wondering if you played around with it or not...


I ran FI on our kill (at 10% nerf) and did pretty well but it seemed, at times, to be more effort than it was worth.
Edited by Plux on 4/30/2012 3:35 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
0
04/30/2012 03:30 AMPosted by Billeemaze
how do u have mana problems on madness?


a lot of guilds 2 heal/1 tank this which can result in spending very little time in cataclysm
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85 Troll Druid
3585
04/30/2012 03:37 AMPosted by Plux
a lot of guilds 2 heal/1 tank this which can result in spending very little time in cataclysm


save SWG for when cata cast starts, and weave them between CHs, if u leave the platform at 75% or higher mana, u can TC back to full on the next platform b4 dmg starts

and whats the point of 2 healing madness now, the enrage timer is not a problem at all since nerfs came around, on our kill we ran into problems with too high of dps and had to stop dps to wait for tank CDs
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90 Orc Shaman
15810
Also, regarding the spec, I went ahead and picked up FI along with improved cleanse spirit over the +18% healing to an ES target just because... I don't see the point in it. I mean we can't reliably ES swap like a pally can beacon swap because it costs a ton of mana.


chain healing through an ES increases the healing done by 18% making it a very nice talent on aoe stacked healing fights

My question is, what do you think about the reforges specifically for spine?


for spine u want to stack haste, since its the most TC heavy fight, with a lot of raid dmg goin out as well, so cast count really makes a huge difference
for madness u will still want to maintain a decent amount haste aswell, since the yellow buff really helps with extra hot ticks


Wait, that chain heal thing has never been true even since wotlk (not sure if it was changed recently). As in, You can chain heal the ES target but ONLY the ES target gets the bonus. The other 3 targets will get no 18% boost. So there is no real point I saw in picking up the stuff.

But stack haste? I know I can reach the 2005 haste point at this point and maintain ~2600-2700 spirit (with mastery and crit going down the drain). But you're like the first person i've heard to stack haste here. I was under the impression that if you clear buff times at a reasonable pace, haste is not a huge issue (apart from LB spam, which I agree and understand haste is pretty practical). I do see that you are saying do this for 25 man. I do 10 mans though.
My question is, what do you think about the reforges specifically for spine?


reforging for crit was done early in spine progression (think pre 5% nerf/pre 20% tendon health nerf) because you couldn't afford the time needed to use TC. Standard reforging is advocated for spine now because it is more forgiving.
Would it be better to drop Improved Shields for Focused Insight? Or do you really not have time to toss flame shocks around when you get to heroic ship/spine/dw? It does effect HR and seems to be better use of the 3 points put into Imp Shields....Just wondering if you played around with it or not...


I ran FI on our kill (at 10% nerf) and did pretty well but it seemed, at times, to be more effort than it was worth.


Ya I will consider this going back to mastery. Its a pain to do all reforges every time anyway. But progression is relative. I am going to keep FI just because I have a free build available to me (I really don't use the enhance off-spec outside of maybe one fight and I don't do dailies or anything like that anymore). I am gonna redo reforges back into mastery with maybe some emphasis on keeping spirit at a decent rate (Like 4000 combat regen or so).

I am considering, however, dropping the points in improved cleanse spirit. Main reason is, I wanted our disc priest to dispel since disc is more like half a healer on this fight anyway. How often did your dispel person have trouble dealing with the dispels? As in, could your dispeler at all times handle all the dispels?

I have one other question about the fight. I am gonna ask that our raiders to force the buff onto the tanks at the start by stacking at one side and having the tanks at the other. Thus, we'll be spending an additional ~15 sec at the start of the fight before the rolls to ensure this (tanks will just tank the 3 amalgs). Do you think waiting will cause a problem or na? Only going to be spending an hour - 1.5 hrs today on it (first time trying it) so I dont expect to get a kill or anything, but just curious if this starting strategy will work out. We're gonna be aiming for 2 grips per lift and doing the clearing bloods strat during rolls.

Also considering to not even do a roll at the start... but just tank all 3 amalgs (2 of them used for lifts followed by the third one being used to soak bloods when we roll after plate 1). Anyone tried this or does it not work out well with grip timers and everything?

Thanks again!
Edited by Gardiff on 4/30/2012 5:34 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9250
04/28/2012 04:28 PMPosted by Xoj
Based on your armory it looks like you are raiding heroics, so I will tell you what worked best for me (I have been 8/8H for quite some time now). Hit the 916 haste cap and stop there for haste completely. Going for the next cap which is Riptide is not that beneficial from what I have found. Reforge everything else (except spirit) to mastery. Now here is the downside, your healing output will look horrible for the first 4 fights of DS, but the last 4 fights the mastery comes into play and is real nice. This is because your healing rain will be used a lot more and your chain heal will actually hit the people that need it the most. In my raid, our top healer is a resto druid and he destroys me on every fight except Warmaster and Spine (not including ultraxion). On Warmaster we are about even, and on heroic Spine I blow him and the priest out of the water. I have heroic heart of unliving so I did reforge out about 300 or so spirit to crit just to play around with, thats up to you, since the only fight that you may have mana issues on (atleast for me) was heroic madness. Let me know if you wanna chat in game or vent.


I would love to chat sometime in game and get more advice.. sukodin@gmail.com is my RID..

Thanks everyone for the help here also! I made the changes I have now pre-reading this thread, and pre-finally getting my domo neck.. I am a little worried that I went too deep in my cutting of spirit from my gear, though this week will be the test.. I plan to run the FI build for spine this week and see if It makes any difference.
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85 Troll Druid
3585
04/30/2012 05:12 AMPosted by Gardiff
I am considering, however, dropping the points in improved cleanse spirit. Main reason is, I wanted our disc priest to dispel since disc is more like half a healer on this fight anyway. How often did your dispel person have trouble dealing with the dispels? As in, could your dispeler at all times handle all the dispels?


for 25man our disc handles all the dispels, and with their glyph they r the best choice for it

04/30/2012 05:12 AMPosted by Gardiff
Wait, that chain heal thing has never been true even since wotlk (not sure if it was changed recently). As in, You can chain heal the ES target but ONLY the ES target gets the bonus. The other 3 targets will get no 18% boost. So there is no real point I saw in picking up the stuff.


i did a few quick tests, but it looked like it was, but its extremely hard to tell for sure with our mastery so it might only be the ES target, and if it is i still think that 18% healing is worth it, especially on 10man

04/30/2012 05:12 AMPosted by Gardiff
I do see that you are saying do this for 25 man. I do 10 mans though.


10man does favor mastery more, and devalue haste some
crit build is and has been dead for a long time, with crit itself being lackluster and then add in the secondary stat tax on crit rating makes it just awful for us, its always better to heal harder with more heals, then TC for mana when u can, i prefered the haste build since spine is just a chain heal spam fight since it has like 2% overheal on spine (if even that, some pulls i had as low as .5% for progression)

04/30/2012 05:12 AMPosted by Gardiff
Also considering to not even do a roll at the start... but just tank all 3 amalgs (2 of them used for lifts followed by the third one being used to soak bloods when we roll after plate 1). Anyone tried this or does it not work out well with grip timers and everything?


we do that on 25man, but i wouldnt recommend it for 10man, since its a 3 tank strat, and even at 0 stacks amalg do a decent amount of dmg
we cleave down 2 amalgs at the start, and just do a quick 1-2 on the first plate with the amalgs

I have one other question about the fight. I am gonna ask that our raiders to force the buff onto the tanks at the start by stacking at one side and having the tanks at the other. Thus, we'll be spending an additional ~15 sec at the start of the fight before the rolls to ensure this (tanks will just tank the 3 amalgs). Do you think waiting will cause a problem or na? Only going to be spending an hour - 1.5 hrs today on it (first time trying it) so I dont expect to get a kill or anything, but just curious if this starting strategy will work out. We're gonna be aiming for 2 grips per lift and doing the clearing bloods strat during rolls.


delaying the first roll is fine, we used to do that in my old 10man guild when we did it pre-nerf, just make sure the amalgs dont grab any killed bloods b4 the roll
25man we time the pulling of the amalg around grip timers, on 10man we just dragged them in once 9 bloods were down, and had the blood tank kill the corruption during the lift (amalg tank works too, i was always cat on the tendon and would taunt amalg off the blood tank after since ferals do really good burst)

and dont worry about the buff on the tanks at the start, by the 3rd plate the blood tank will need 2 stacks (maybe even the 2nd half of the 2nd plate), and the amalg tank shouldnt need them, but it def helps
Thanks everyone for the help here also! I made the changes I have now pre-reading this thread, and pre-finally getting my domo neck.. I am a little worried that I went too deep in my cutting of spirit from my gear, though this week will be the test.


if u get the morchok neck, it is bis over domo neck
and the spirit amount depends on the fight, for madness u can drop a lot, but for spine u will want as much as u can get, i think i did madness with about 2000 spirit + normal HoU, for spine i used about 3500 + HoU
Edited by Billeemaze on 4/30/2012 6:19 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12855
With the ES bonus and chain heal, I am pretty sure it boosts the first hit and that boosted heal is what bounces to the additional targets.

I just downed hero spine last night running the spec I have now. I run 10 man and found having hit cap is essential to my playstyle. I weave LBs in when there is only one debuff out and on tendons.

I personally don't see FI ever being good. I'd much rather wind a LB up than a shock. You already bomb debuff tgts on spine and sicne FI came out every thread I have ever read said its has negative HPS.

The hpally that I heal with gets the debuff to the nethalrion (however you spell it lol) version and I try to rng it to the tanks. I found doing it early rather than later is extremly important because of rng. I also try to get everyone at least one stack each, just helps when plate 3 starts going stupid with adds.
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90 Goblin Shaman
9385
04/30/2012 06:35 AMPosted by Polaski
I personally don't see FI ever being good. I'd much rather wind a LB up than a shock. You already bomb debuff tgts on spine and sicne FI came out every thread I have ever read said its has negative HPS.


But you are TC....You stack haste...Not all shaman are TC....Not all shaman stack haste...
For those shaman who are TC it probably would have a negative HPS...
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90 Pandaren Shaman
HC
9325
04/30/2012 06:07 AMPosted by Sukodin
I plan to run the FI build for spine this week and see if It makes any difference.


04/30/2012 06:35 AMPosted by Polaski
I personally don't see FI ever being good. I'd much rather wind a LB up than a shock. You already bomb debuff tgts on spine and sicne FI came out every thread I have ever read said its has negative HPS.


FI spec has proven to be nice without a ds buff, but with 15-20% buff, its going to likely be pointless to worry about.

Not to mention, you are intentended to use H:NF with the FI build while stacking a crapton of mastery at the 916 haste cap. So if you're not doing that, then dont do it.
Edited by Eein on 4/30/2012 6:52 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
12855
@Bloodweaver
No, healing with FI weaved in vice just casting heals normally is a negative HPS according to the folks on EJs. Albiet, the posts over there have all but died out.

I never said every shaman has to stack haste, don't know where you are going with that and TC.

I am talking in terms of when you are spamming debuff targets with heals only. I dont have logs to prove this either way just pointing out what I have read over the xpac about FI.
Edited by Polaski on 4/30/2012 6:59 AM PDT
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90 Pandaren Shaman
9250
if u get the morchok neck, it is bis over domo neckand the spirit amount depends on the fight, for madness u can drop a lot, but for spine u will want as much as u can get, i think i did madness with about 2000 spirit + normal HoU, for spine i used about 3500 + HoU


Really.. thats interesting.. I have the Heroic Morchok Neck.. but Spirit didnt seem like an issue for me, and your the first person that told me this...
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