Removal of "School of Hard Knocks" Achieve

87 Draenei Shaman
5605
I'm sure this has been brought up several times. Why bring a child to a battlefield? Honestly, if you're in the Military, would you take your child on a mission with you? I highly doubt it.
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Ok, here's the deal with all the extraneous crap carved off and trolling mantra sliced away.

No one enjoys this achieve except the people it is easy for, which is basically pvp'ers in full cata gear.

This achieve is misplaced....it is under the "world events" category, which is a PVE category, not under the "player versus player" category nor the "arena" category. It is CLEARLY a pvp achieve, and not a pve achieve, by definition...because you have to participate in bgs to get it.

pvp players hate it because their bgs are royally screwed over for a whole week...and before the "yeah, yeah, yeah, it's only a week, get over it" mantra kicks in, that's the ONLY thing many pvpers do. That means they don't get to play wow at all for a whole week. pve'ers can still play wow and do their normal game play during this week, but these dedicated pvp'ers can not because their normal stuff is bgs and is the ONLY stuff they normally do. They are literally screwed out of a whole week of subscription fee, because they still pay but do not get to play during that week due to bgs being crap.

pve players hate it because they are thrust into an environment they've never seen before and are not familiar with, asked to do pvp actions they have never seen before and don't know how to do, and forced to participate in combat rotations they do not know and have never used before all while wearing toilet paper armor and while facing opponents clothed in "powered combat armor". Meanwhile they are trolled by their own side because they are wearing crap, ruining the bg for the normal players, and don't understand the chat going by. "farming" means something completely different to pve'ers than what it means to pvp'ers, so screaming "they are farming, don't let them" in a chat window is meaningless...just as "in st", "cap", "in mt from frr", and countless other abreviations pvp'ers commonly use and expect everyone to know. Even if someone does figure out "mt" means "mage tower" and "frr" means "fel reaver ruins", they don't know what those are or where they are (yet...eventually they might).

Neither side can stand it, except for the full cata gear bullies that get jollies by murdering the helpless and camping them.

The goal of this achieve is to get pve'ers into a bg in hopes they will like it and start participating. Newsflash...the goal has failed across the board. If this is bliz's desire, then they need to create special queues where sides are matched evenly. The only way pve's are going to get interested in pvp is if it is a fair fight...which is zillions of light years away from the case today. You do it with arenas already...calculating a team rating and matching similarly rated teams vs each other...that's all people need here, a fair fight. You would never match a rating 6934 arena team vs a rating 354 arena team, don't do it in bgs either.

That's all people really want here...a fair fight. If you do the rating thing, everyone wins. die hard pvp'ers don't have their bgs screwed over for a whole week, pve'ers get a fair fight where they actually have a chance beyond "dumb luck" and might actually get interested in pvp since they did have a fair fight that they might actually have enjoyed instead of just getting so violated that they never will ever remotely consider doing pvp ever again.

...and before the trolls jump me with the mantra they mind-numbingly repeat on every post they don't agree with, I already got my achieve on the characters I have tried this on, so it isn't qq...I did this the existing hard way on two arcane mages in low power cata pve gear, one rogue in nearly full cata pvp gear, and one DK in level 80 pve gear with only 3 pieces of level 85 honor (not cata) gear. I'm just stepping back and laying out a detached view that I believe is fair (others welcome to disagree) speaking as a person who isn't qq'ing because they have already gotten the achieve, even on an extremely undergeared character.

TL:DR short version:
pve's just want a fair chance, not a gimme. pvp'ers just want to be able to play the wow they paid for. Doing some kind of "match equally rated players vs each other" like the current arena mechanic already does would be one solution to both problems. Another would be to move the achieve out of the world event category and into the player versus player category where it should have been in the first place.
Edited by Adiathna on 5/4/2012 11:10 AM PDT
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90 Human Warlock
11635
Those who only PVE and not PVP are really missing out on the additional content of the game... so what if you have to queue for a BG for achivs, you're playing WoW, you pay to play it so why not enjoy both aspects of the game... even if you lack skill at PVP.
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90 Tauren Paladin
9275
To all those saying "I got it so easy, heh heh, I'm so awesome you're so dumb!" I wish to offer a rebuttal.

My Pally dies easy in BGs because he isn't geared for them. But even if he was, there becomes an issue to me achieving it. Let's review the achievements and why I can't/won't get them:

Capture the flag in Eye of the Storm
Well, first off, my entire team often argues that we shouldn't be trying to cap the flag because the towers are more important. So that's one point against trying to do so. Also, if someone is going to be capturing a flag in EotS (or WG, or TP), it should be someone like a Feral Druid or a Shaman, who can move quickly to cap the flag. It shouldn't be a plodding Paladin in Ret or Holy spec. (Sure, as Holy I could heal myself like mad if I had the Resilience to take a pounding. But that's not as efficient as a Druid/Shaman.)

Assault a flag in Arathi Basin
Okay, this is potentially doable, though I do have to compete with multiple players, or deal with general incompetence as people let flags go undefended and they end up changing hands multiple times.

Assault a tower in Alterac Valley
Again, doable, but not if I'm in the Holy spec that I'd prefer to be in for BGs, because then I'm not healing my allies, I'm trying to take a control point.

Return a fallen flag in Warsong Gulch
See above. You have to fight through your own allies to try to be the closest to the flag drop. And, if I'm playing Holy, I'm not going to be that close to the enemy, especially with the changes to Holy Radiance.

So, for me to achieve these objectives, I would actually have to do things that are outside the scope of doing my best to help my team win the battleground. Oh, but who cares if we lose and everyone else's time is wasted? I got my achievement! Um, yeah. Some of you might be selfish trolls who only care about your own goals and not helping the other people in a group activity. Those of us who do will not be achieving this objective easily, as doing so actually would force us to work against our own team.
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05/04/2012 08:02 AMPosted by Leide
Those who only PVE and not PVP are really missing out on the additional content of the game... so what if you have to queue for a BG for achivs, you're playing WoW, you pay to play it so why not enjoy both aspects of the game... even if you lack skill at PVP.


Those who only live in peaceful neighborhoods with easy access to grocery stores and medical attention around every corner are really missing out on life...so what if you have to go live in a famine stricken war torn country for a week where you pick up god only knows what disease there may not even be a cure for and starve to death or get shot/blown up/murdered for the loose change in your pocket. You live on earth like everyone else, so why not enjoy every aspect of lifestyle, even if you lack skill at avoiding snipers/land mines/heavy armored mobile weaponry, foraging for spiders and edible weeds, and have no immunity to their local diseases.

See what I did there? Get it yet?

as for the word "enjoy"...being griefed by bullies with 20 times the dps/armor/resistance you have = enjoy? Masochist much?

There's also a miscomprehension here having to do with "choice". If a player CHOOSES to pvp, they do it smartly...they grind up valor/justice and convert to honor/conquest to get decent gear and/or buy starter sets at large cost investment (that are immediately obsolete and don't help that much anyhow), then they pick a bg and learn it over the course of many days and eventually branch out. They are not hurled buck naked into 4 unfamiliar settings all at once with the clock ticking...where if the alarm goes off you have to wait an entire year to try again.

...and before the "achieves are optional" trolls start spewing their mantra...no, they aren't. At max level that's all you have left you CAN do. They are no more optional than experience, equipment, gold, etc,...and implying otherwise is ridiculous.
Edited by Adiathna on 5/4/2012 10:14 AM PDT
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90 Gnome Mage
12555
05/04/2012 09:54 AMPosted by Adiathna
There's also a miscomprehension here having to do with "choice". If a player CHOOSES to pvp, they do it smartly...they grind up valor/justice and convert to honor/conquest to get decent gear and/or buy starter sets at large cost investment (that are immediately obsolete and don't help that much anyhow), then they pick a bg and learn it over the course of many days and eventually branch out. They are not hurled buck naked into 4 unfamiliar settings all at once with the clock ticking...where if the alarm goes off you have to wait an entire year to try again.


Oh, please. You knew this achieve was coming for a year or more. The QQ threads started in January. You knew it involved PVP. You were entirely capable of buying some starter crafted PVP gear on the AH and/or grinding honor points in entirely safe ways like the Grizzly Hills dailies for months before it hit to get some basic PVP gear. You were entirely capable of watching videos and reading guides of how best to do this, but instead just entered the BG unprepared and unaware as your orphan. You CHOSE not to do it smartly. So yeah, you're getting your head handed to you. Plan ahead next time.
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85 Orc Warlock
14320
05/04/2012 09:54 AMPosted by Adiathna
...and before the "achieves are optional" trolls start spewing their mantra...no, they aren't. At max level that's all you have left you CAN do. They are no more optional than experience, equipment, gold, etc,...and implying otherwise is ridiculous.


I guess dungeons, raids, arena's, random bg's, and rated bg's all disappear when you hit 85? When I first started playing there were no achievements, people still found things to keep them busy... ridiculous I know.
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Oh, please. You knew this achieve was coming for a year or more


really? I did? Hunh. Funny...I thought I started looking at world achievements for the first time when I hit 85th, you know...when you're actually high enough level to complete them all instead of just the ones lowbies can do ...a couple of months ago.

Also, you obviously read nothing as nowhere did I complain about a bloody thing, and in fact went out of my way to state I had no problem whatsoever getting the achieves even on a drastically undergeared pve character.

Cast your fail trolling elsewhere and stop polluting the issue with misdirecting gibberish.
Edited by Adiathna on 5/4/2012 1:49 PM PDT
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85 Tauren Paladin
9265
This topic gets more and more attention every year, which really should tell us something already.

I've completed this achievement on several characters, without any major difficulties, but that doesn't change the fact that I don't like it. It is poorly designed, and forces (yes, I said forces) people to participate in a part of the game they have no desire to participate in. You can argue that the achievement isn't hard, and I will not argue much, but not hard is not the same as fun, and it is much more difficult than the other achievements in it's category. You can argue that it is an achievement and therefore optional, and you would be right, it is optional, but it is an optional achievement that a very large number of people want so that they can get the meta. I'm not saying that there should not be achievements that are more difficult than others, and I'm not even saying that the violet proto should be easy to get, but what I am saying is that this achievement is much more difficult than the other achievements in the "What a Long Strange Trip It's Been" meta, and many people are only missing this one achievement for the mount. The meta should not be given to anyone, but I do think something should be done to make the margin of difficulty a little narrower in this particular case.
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...and before the "achieves are optional" trolls start spewing their mantra...no, they aren't. At max level that's all you have left you CAN do. They are no more optional than experience, equipment, gold, etc,...and implying otherwise is ridiculous.


I guess dungeons, raids, arena's, random bg's, and rated bg's all disappear when you hit 85? When I first started playing there were no achievements, people still found things to keep them busy... ridiculous I know.


...and more trolls come out and spew venomous garbage. Try reading and understanding instead of looking for single lines to take out of context to twist and misrepresent. By your reasoning dungeons, raids, arenas, random bgs, and rated bgs are all optional...and therefore, since they are optional you shouldn't do any of them. I.E. not play wow at all...don't even log in...because optional means shouldn't even try. Stop being intentionally dense and belligerant.

Take fail trolling elsewhere please.

You know what...my post was well thought out and constructive...stands on its own merit. No sense in my letting myself get into flame wars with trolls looking to be snarky. I'm out.
Edited by Adiathna on 5/4/2012 1:51 PM PDT
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85 Orc Warlock
14320
...and more trolls come out and spew venomous garbage. Try reading and understanding instead of looking for single lines to take out of context to twist and misrepresent.

Take fail trolling elsewhere please.


You made a statement, your statement is untrue. Achievements are optional. You can play this game at max level without trying or caring about them, I know plenty of people that do.

If it is important to you, you find a way to do it without QQ'ing for whatever reason. There are plenty of achievements that I want that are difficult for my class, but I don't whine to have them changed due to the fact. It makes them all the more sweeter when I get them.
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90 Gnome Mage
12555
You made an absurd statement (which to you is "well thougt out") about being thrown into PVP without preparation. That's not at all the case, unless you choose not to look at what the requirements for the achievements are. If you choose not to prepare, things will probably end badly. You're the troll who's not paying attention.

Who ever said that you can't start doing achievements until you're 85, anyway? That's something else you CHOSE.
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85 Orc Warlock
14320
By your reasoning dungeons, raids, arenas, random bgs, and rated bgs are all optional...and therefore, since they are optional you shouldn't do any of them. I.E. not play wow at all...don't even log in...because optional means shouldn't even try. Stop being intentionally dense and belligerant.

Take fail trolling elsewhere please.

You know what...my post was well thought out and constructive...stands on its own merit. No sense in my letting myself get into flame wars with trolls looking to be snarky. I'm out.


op·tion·al
adjective
1. left to one's choice; not required or mandatory
2. leaving something to choice.

^^ don't see anything there about how you shouldn't try

Of course WOW is optional, playing a video game is not necessary for sustaining life. It is a form of entertainment you choose to do, kind of like sports. If someone plays baseball and can't hit a home run does that mean the entire game should be changed to accommodate them? or should they keep trying until the eventually can?

Saying rude things about people/calling them names doesn't make you sound smarter or more intelligent, it just proves you can't argue your point.
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100 Human Warlock
15045
This is the only achievement that stands in the way of my Violet Protodrake, and I will never go out of my way to complete it. It's really not worth all the amount of rage and annoyance to get. The entire point of this achievement is to forsake your team in a battleground to attempt an individual goal. It's stupid, and since half your team usually does this, it really !@#$s over most random battlegrounds for the entire week. Blizzard has received more complaints on this achieve than any other, and they still have yet to remove it from the meta. I don't care if the playerbase sees me as undeserving for the mount because I refuse to spend 15 hours ignoring my team and the battleground intentionally to try and get an achieve. It's honestly not worth it.
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85 Troll Mage
11175
05/04/2012 04:45 PMPosted by Amarix
This is the only achievement that stands in the way of my Violet Protodrake, and I will never go out of my way to complete it. It's really not worth all the amount of rage and annoyance to get. The entire point of this achievement is to forsake your team in a battleground to attempt an individual goal. It's stupid, and since half your team usually does this, it really !@#$s over most random battlegrounds for the entire week. Blizzard has received more complaints on this achieve than any other, and they still have yet to remove it from the meta. I don't care if the playerbase sees me as undeserving for the mount because I refuse to spend 15 hours ignoring my team and the battleground intentionally to try and get an achieve. It's honestly not worth it.


How is "Returning the flag, Capturing a Flag, Assaulting a Base/Tower" going against your team? Once I got mine in each battleground I would stay and help finish the battleground. And I hate PVP. You can do both.
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