Prot t13 set bonuses

88 Blood Elf Paladin
11410
Morchok - nice when you're having your healer be the stomp absorber, otherwise... meh

zon- putting it on a 2min cd lets you layer raid wide cd's more efficiently (i.e. use w/ aura mastery since they have same cd), regardless if used on high bounces or black phase

yor- always nice to have sooner. You can never rely on RNG, better safe than sorry.

hagara-.. meh

ultrax- meh either way. I'd prefer for the 4pc and only bring one healer.

warmaster- onslaught cd's are quite nice, if not mandatory, but on a fight like this, if you're not doing everything you can to make yourself more survivable, you're not doing your raid any favors.

spine/madness- can't speak about fights I haven't experienced.

you're right, compared to all of the other tanks 4pc bonuses, it's lackluster at best, especially when it doesn't even affect the person using it. It's main use is quality of life for healers and others so they can save their individual cd's.

picking what gear to wear during progression is always a balancing act. can the healers keep me alive? can our dps meet the requirement on their own? can the healers manage if I drop def stats to pump more damage? All questions based on your groups composition, and class knowledge, and even gear level. You should be able to hold a steady 20k dps on most fights(in 4pc prot). Your dps should be fine on their own with the rest.

my situation?: our healers and dps push great numbers, but can never learn to avoid simple mechanics (charge on warmaster), so to help the healers out, I stacked more avoidance/survivability.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Gear recommendations? If survival is an issue use your best tanking gear while if its not throw on some dps gear. R2pT13 is nice but R2pT13+Prot2pT12 is better for dps =P

I already mentioned it and Kangarooster went over them in more detail so ill save some posting room and copy and paste:

Morchok- can be used for stomps
zon-can be used during the burn phase or to let you have more bounces
yor- every time he gets yellow or if the adds are overwhelming you
Hagara-lighting phase
Ultraxion-assuming you dont need ret2pt13+prot2pT12 you can use this to make life easier on your healers which by my quick math means 1 extra DG.
Ship can be used to help with soaking.
Madness-bolts

In addition to this and what hooves/kanga it means its up for an extra use for an emergency. So if a healer falls dangerously low on lets say zon that is one more raid cd to save the day.

Funny how mr STAMINA STAMINA STAMINA is doing exactly what i said and going for more damage in most of your recommendations. Dont you know exp/hit/damage is not the tanks job /sarcasm

05/03/2012 01:45 PMPosted by Pallisade
Also, please give reasoning for when Tier 12 (normal mode) 2 piece bonus is a valid choice, at this stage of the expansion, over using tier 13 pieces (as you state you have for the bonus).


As i said above it situational. I find that zon for example really hurts and that random raid members can and do die during the bounces. I went 4p here every time till we got it down the last 2 times. When Yor was progression i went with a maximum stamina set up (more for the extra cd from the 4p than personal survival). Now i wear R2pT13+P2pt12 with mirror.

We got Hagara our first try so other than our first kill dps gear for her.

I use my current set up (with FotD rather than Mirror) for ultraxion. We are currently getting him down to 7% with 2 healers and me single tanking him, soaking all HoT and doing 19k and the dps on a sliding scale from there to 28k. Wipes are usually due to dps deaths from HW mishaps. Im usually last to die. This is the one fight where if dps was not an issue id be going 4p to help the healers and any dps who get a FL right before HoT to help them live.

As you can see i change based on the needs of my raid.

FWIW I believe your healers do tell you you are the best they heal. Obviously their experience is limited to 5 mans and 4/8 DS. I told you that I thought you were a great 5 man tank.


Actually my co-tank transferred to play to another realm to play with his girlfriend so we had a revolving door of tanks and seen it all. From DKs to warriors, to ferals doing 6k on ultraxion.

When in doubt i solo tank all our current content =P

Despite your backhanded compliment i do think you know what your raid needs. You just assume all raids are like yours and look down at others in less progressed guilds.

Cause apparently if your not as progressed as your guild then you know nothing. And its that attitude that turns people against you. Not your toon's gender -_-

Seriously do you how bad that sounds? And have you even seen how bad Fem Blood elves look in the armory?
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100 Human Paladin
20740
Using the ret 2 piece nets you a few hundred DPS or so, using the tank 4 piece can save the raid. No, 4p isn't as awesome as other 4p bonuses since it's basically just Divine Guardian only slightly better, but for progression it's really nice to have around.
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87 Blood Elf Paladin
8070
05/03/2012 04:23 PMPosted by Celyndrashad
Funny how mr STAMINA STAMINA STAMINA is doing exactly what i said and going for more damage in most of your recommendations. Dont you know exp/hit/damage is not the tanks job /sarcasm


Yea, just gloss over the fact that I was talking about your going for hit rating. I'm saying hit rating is garbage, you can claim it's just for ultraxion, but it's the same thing you were going for when you were 1/8.

05/03/2012 04:23 PMPosted by Celyndrashad
When in doubt i solo tank all our current content =P


All 4? In one night?

05/03/2012 04:23 PMPosted by Celyndrashad
Cause apparently if your not as progressed as your guild then you know nothing. And its that attitude that turns people against you. Not your toon's gender -_-


Nope, it's just you. As I've said before, numerous times, I think you *could* be a good raid tank, it doesn't matter what you do in your situation, your dps must be borderline retarded if you can beat any of them. We had a fire mage in our 10m, that tried for 2 months to learn her spot. Worked with others in the guild, and she pulled 5k dps more than me in raids. That was enough for our 10m leader to sit her, and bring in another guildie. You can choose to go into a raid with 9 healers and 1 tank, and you can gear for all the dps you want, and you will not succeed. That's fine, hey - if you want to stick that out, good luck! But when you don't even get to PULL the boss on a raid fight, then try to speculate what would work - I don't want to hear it.

And as for the guy that still gets ad hominem wrong - there is just no hope for you. I'm saying that no experience means you can't speak on your experience. But sure, use a Latin word and sound cool Feel free to contact me in game if you're in the US - I have no problem meeting up to discuss Ad Hominem. I would really, really, really like to meet up and discuss ad hominem. Please, contact me.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
19040
This thread no longer amuses me.

05/03/2012 02:58 PMPosted by Kangarooster
Lol - you don't know what ad hominem means. You're criticizing a person's argument based on THEM, that is ad hominem. When you debate you argue the person's argument, not the person themself.


Just a side note: You're wrong. Ad hominem is attacking the person like Pallidues (whatever his name is, I'm not tabbing back to get it right) gave in his examples before.

What you're describing is a strawman's argument.

IE:
Person 1: Prot 4 piece sucks
Person 2: No, it's amazing
Person 1: WATCH OUT GUYS SOMEONE WHO CAN KILL HEROIC MORCHOK IS TELLING US WHAT'S AMAZING
Edited by Bubblenrun on 5/3/2012 8:47 PM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
19040
05/03/2012 08:46 PMPosted by Kangarooster
he for some reason needs to bring up when he's only 5/8 with a freakin' 20% nerf


Pretty sure you look stupid when you mock someone for only being so far in the game on an alt with less than what you mock someone for.
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87 Blood Elf Paladin
8070
05/03/2012 08:46 PMPosted by Kangarooster
Nah, his posts in general, especially the ad hominem filled vitriol that he for some reason needs to bring up when he's only 5/8 with a freakin' 20% nerf, are proof in themselves that he mostly shouldn't be taken as a serious poster. Which is, of course, a pity.


Using a Latin phrase wrong doesn't help support your argument. Funny though that you try to discredit me by citing my raid experience, which is my exact argument for Celyn, so I will take that as support for my stance of experience means valid opinion.

Is 5/8 HM the best in the world? Obviously not, not even best on my server for my faction. Never claimed it was - we aren't a hard core raiding guild. We have 3 10m's, the best of which is 6/8. My group is only (as of last week even) 5/8. However, we do discuss raid strategies, post the videos on our forum for which strategy we are going to use (at least at first, we often try out several of the main stream strategies to see what we pick up on).

The bottom line is results. We start working Blackhorn next week - I've been talking to people that have down it before, specifically tanks so I can learn from that perspective. Guess who I'm not asking? People that have only read about it, and never even started the event in normal mode for themselves.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Yea, just gloss over the fact that I was talking about your going for hit rating. I'm saying hit rating is garbage, you can claim it's just for ultraxion, but it's the same thing you were going for when you were 1/8.


Yes i went for hit back then (actually i was reforging for exp not hit) BECAUSE WE WERE WIPING TO ENRAGES NOT ME GETTING GIBBED.

But no its not garbage. Its our 2nd best dps stat following expertise.

Or do you think that the answer to a dps problem is to stack stamina? Then all your valuable experience means nothing cause you dont know basic class mechanics.
All 4? In one night?


Yes. We spend one night clear them and the 2nd day on progression.

05/03/2012 08:38 PMPosted by Pallisade
That was enough for our 10m leader to sit her, and bring in another guildie.


Thus our guilds are nothing alike. Our guild would keep trying as long as she was geared enough and put in the effort.

05/03/2012 08:38 PMPosted by Pallisade
You can choose to go into a raid with 9 healers and 1 tank, and you can gear for all the dps you want, and you will not succeed.


Absurd example is absurd.

05/03/2012 08:38 PMPosted by Pallisade
But when you don't even get to PULL the boss on a raid fight, then try to speculate what would work - I don't want to hear it.


What the sam hill are you talking about. I know its late but now your speaking non-sense.

05/03/2012 08:38 PMPosted by Pallisade
I'm saying that no experience means you can't speak on your experience.


I have experience tanking for 2 expansions. Not HM DS but enough to know basic tanking and im very well antiquated with all the theorycrafting.

And this goes back to you looking down at normal mode tanks.

BTW:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

"You can't believe John when he says the proposed policy would help the economy. He doesn't even have a job."


Replace economy with raids and job with completed NM DS.

05/03/2012 08:40 PMPosted by Bubblenrun
strawman's argument.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strawman_argument

A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position

Hes not misrepresenting my argument this time (or he wasnt till the last post) rather trying to attack my credibility while ignoring my argument.

05/03/2012 09:19 PMPosted by Pallisade
try to discredit me by citing my raid experience


Hes calling you out on hypocrisy actually.

The bottom line is results. We start working Blackhorn next week - I've been talking to people that have down it before, specifically tanks so I can learn from that perspective. Guess who I'm not asking? People that have only read about it, and never even started the event in normal mode for themselves.


I have never been to the northpole.

So if i told you that its freaking cold up their you would ignore me and go up in a Tshirt and shorts? Maybe nothing but a speedo for a week?

Here are my results: I have the unwavering faith of all who raid with me. We have cleared things using my strategies we have struggled on. We have killed bosses that had i listened to you we would still be struggling on.

This game is a TEAM effort. You can not access individual skill/knowledge or ability by progression. Have you seen me tank? Have you tanked for my raid?

We have had people come in who are doing HMs and wipe with us in some pugs. You would throw your hands up in frustration and quit. I struggle on. You give up on people. So long as they try i dont. You take the easy way out, i do things the way the vast majority of players do them...wipe with friends.

Your tactics would not work for most people looking for help as they would not kick the mage doing 5k more damage than you cause its their best friend. My ways will help them pull victory from the jaws of defeat. Yours leaves them looking and feeling like jerks.

To turn things around on you, who are you to give advise to people when you dont even live in their world? Your not playing the same game we are, we actually care about people. Your ways wont work for them cause they will never do things your way. In fact stacking stamina when you have a dps problem will hurt them.

The fact that you think all raids are like yours undermines everything you say. Lets take my advise from the previous flame war we were in:

If survival is not an issue and damage is then exp/hit is the way to go.

Tell me one situation where this is wrong. Just one.

Okay lets take my advise in this thread: Tanking gearing is situational. Consider the needs of your raid and talk to your healers and decide whats best for you.

Once again 1 situation where im wrong.
Edited by Celyndrashad on 5/3/2012 11:34 PM PDT
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90 Tauren Paladin
8310
Celyndrashad

I saw some of your logs with wipes on Ultraxion a few weeks ago it is definitely a dps issue with half the raid far under you in dps.

I will say I respect the fact that you stick with your friends and try your best; however, survival becomes an issue.

After studying the logs healers are doing O.K. but I am sure they would like dps to pick it up a bit I mean you're healing yourself for 1.2k HPS which is good play to survive but it completely useless and depletes what you say when you're trying to say "If survival is not an issue and damage is then exp/hit is the way to go.". The way to go when you have reached the CtC cap is stamina with my tank spec I am expertise capped because I had extra points but I just reforged 100% pointless to gem for it.

Dps is a major issue for your group at this current time my suggestion would be to advise your members to watch some youtube videos and to read basic dps guides such as Noxxic.com <---- this site is not the greatest but it is a starting point for people who are struggling or new to dpsing current content.

I won't touch the point of you being a good/bad tank cause you're right I haven't done anything with you, but I will say your leadership skills are lacking to improve I do not mean this in a bad way at all I am reiterating my point to advise members to read guides to help with their dps. They make training dummies for a reason and I can tell by your dps in your gear you have used them.

Yes i went for hit back then (actually i was reforging for exp not hit) BECAUSE WE WERE WIPING TO ENRAGES NOT ME GETTING GIBBED.

But no its not garbage. Its our 2nd best dps stat following expertise.


Your glyphs are incorrect as well the focused shield is great for single target fights but when are only spec'd into 1 point of a free avengers shield kinda pointless. the word of glory is a horrible tank glyph you should use crusader strike instead for damage purposes. Speccing into word of glory protective shield is also useless you are saying survival is not an issue why are you speccing and glyphing into these things?
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90 Tauren Paladin
8310
Also why do you have avalanche? landslide is preferred for someone who claims you need more dps.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
19040
05/03/2012 09:24 PMPosted by Kangarooster
Please bring up the posts where I brag about my progression.


You don't have to brag about your progression so that's completely irrelevant. If you're going to laugh at someone's progression you better be farther than them. Not only that but he didn't even bring up his "amazing" progression either unless I missed it. You brought up his.
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87 Blood Elf Paladin
8070
05/03/2012 11:33 PMPosted by Celyndrashad
Its our 2nd best dps stat following expertise.


It's actually third following strength and expertise. But in the big scheme of things:
Mastery>Block/Parry>Stamina>expertise>hit.

05/03/2012 11:33 PMPosted by Celyndrashad
Or do you think that the answer to a dps problem is to stack stamina? Then all your valuable experience means nothing cause you dont know basic class mechanics.


No I think the answer to a dps problem is to have viable dps in your raid make up so that it's possible to kill a boss.

05/03/2012 11:33 PMPosted by Celyndrashad
Absurd example is absurd.


Yay for internet meme.

But when you don't even get to PULL the boss on a raid fight, then try to speculate what would work - I don't want to hear it.


What the sam hill are you talking about. I know its late but now your speaking non-sense.


Having never killed Ultraxion, there is no way you have ever even started the Blackhorn event. Anything you can say, short of start off 'I have read that . . . .' is going to hold little water. If I needed accounting advice, and a greens keeper at the golf course gave me some advice, I probably wouldn't take it to heart, and he could have been 100% right. But he's not where I go for accounting advice, because he mows grass for a living.

05/03/2012 11:33 PMPosted by Celyndrashad
I have experience tanking for 2 expansions. Not HM DS but enough to know basic tanking and im very well antiquated with all the theorycrafting.


Exactly, I believe you are primarily a theory crafter. I don't care if someone doesn't have HM DS experience. I care if they try to give advice for fights they have never been able to take part in.
(Yea, you don't have HM experience, you have slightly over half of normal mode experience).

05/03/2012 11:33 PMPosted by Celyndrashad
And this goes back to you looking down at normal mode tanks.


No, again, I will say, this is specifically for you, not all normal mode tanks. No other normal mode tanks are here trying to give advice. You are a half normal mode tank.

BTW:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

"You can't believe John when he says the proposed policy would help the economy. He doesn't even have a job."

Replace economy with raids and job with completed NM DS.


Your analogy is inaccurate. Economic policy knowledge has nothing to do with being employed. Having intimate raid knowledge has a lot to do with having intimate raid experience. Saying you don't have enough raid experience is not an attack on your person, it is a fact.

I have never been to the northpole.

So if i told you that its freaking cold up their you would ignore me and go up in a Tshirt and shorts? Maybe nothing but a speedo for a week?


To speak to you on your level and to quote you "Absurd example is absurd." As much as I'm sure you'd like to see me in a speedo.

Here are my results: I have the unwavering faith of all who raid with me. We have cleared things using my strategies we have struggled on. We have killed bosses that had i listened to you we would still be struggling on.

This game is a TEAM effort. You can not access individual skill/knowledge or ability by progression. Have you seen me tank? Have you tanked for my raid?

We have had people come in who are doing HMs and wipe with us in some pugs. You would throw your hands up in frustration and quit. I struggle on. You give up on people. So long as they try i dont. You take the easy way out, i do things the way the vast majority of players do them...wipe with friends.

Several other paragraphs of martyrdom and valor....


You assume I have no faith from my raid group here. Not a good idea to make assumptions. As a side note - how many drops come off 'unwaivering raid faith'? I can't see that achievement listed in your armory. Blind faith from non-success is nothing to be proud of.

I have not yet thrown my hands up and quit on anything. That's another assumption as your so bravely 'struggle on'. I have no doubt that you struggle, it's actually very apparent. My group continues to progress, as I said earlier - we start HM Blackhorn next week (guild came together for 25 man this week). We have only called a Tuesday night raid once, because we were missing 4 of our 10m team. So we did an alt run. No one in my 10m would ever happily show up at raid time only to be turned away. We pop and run back immidaitely, rebuff, feast, talk about what went wrong, how to correct it, and pull again. You haven't run with my group. I never claimed our success was uber, I'm happy with where we are, if nothing else, because we will be finishing the expansion right around the release of MoP, unlike guilds that have completely cleared and farmed it for months.
Edited by Pallisade on 5/4/2012 6:39 AM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
20740
Please bring up the posts where I brag about my progression.


You don't have to brag about your progression so that's completely irrelevant. If you're going to laugh at someone's progression you better be farther than them. Not only that but he didn't even bring up his "amazing" progression either unless I missed it. You brought up his.


Actually Pallisade did bring it up first in post #13 (sarcastically commenting on Celyndrashad's progression to downplay his analysis of the usefulness of the set bonus). I would say how far you are doesn't really matter w/regards to tier bonuses though; if you're progressing on normal modes a tier bonus can be just as useful as if you are progressing on hardmodes.

FWIW, it's useful on heroic Blackhorn for soaking onslaughts (especially if you have people aggressively soaking barrages and going in with the debuff) and for general use in phase 2 (although that's more on your dps) and is obviously good on H Spine/Madness.

If I was still raiding on this toon, I'd use the 4p by default (Even if it isn't super awesome), and swap in other gear for Ultrax (basically always) and then pick fights based on healing needs. 2p Ret T13 really isn't that big a deal though so don't fall too far into that trap.
Edited by Lesaberisa on 5/4/2012 6:59 AM PDT
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87 Blood Elf Paladin
8070
@Kangarooster - your post is too long to quote and address specifically, but I'll refer to your comments in order:

--Zon'ozz--

Me: I said you can only DG 2 black phases
You: AFAIK you get 5


I said you can only USE DG for 2 (of the 4 black phases) for HM Zon'ozz. (only 2 whether you use the 4 piece or not).

Me: Your healers are going to have to learn how to keep everyone up without it.
You: Does your raid not know how to use AM, Tranquility, Divine Hymn, or other raid cooldowns? Divine Guardian is an extra tool upon that, not the only one you should consider.


Of course we use raid wide cooldowns. This doesn't change the fact that they will only have DG for 2 of 4, and will need to (two of out of four times) keep the raid alive without it. I think maybe you don't realize that my arguments were for discussing views of the using the Prot 4 piece, not general raid strategy.

Me: Ad hominem - being abused since 1100's.
You: Lol - you don't know what ad hominem means. You're criticizing a person's argument based on THEM, that is ad hominem. When you debate you argue the person's argument, not the person themself.


I am not calling Celyn ugly, saying he/she doesn't have a job, or calling him/her four eyes. I am saying that having never engaged the Blackhorn+ raid events in normal DS, his/her advice for those fights is purely speculative.

Me: HM Morchok
You:hurr derr derp i'mma use the easiest heroic fight which was easier than N Madness to illustrate my point.

100yd on H Morchok can be helfpul; you can hit the other group with it. If for some reason you're both out in the middle of nowhere (unnecessary; you can stay within 100yds of each other if you're not stupid with crystals) you should be using it. The cd reduction is admittedly not too useful, but affecting both raid groups is.


I explained my rational for each fight that I have engaged in. Yea, that includes HM Morchok, which I said was a faceroll fight. I'm very sure I've never tried to legitimize my opinion based on that fight alone. And to a futher point - you will not be able to garuantee the entire other group on Morchok is within 100 yards, so you shouldn't be counted on. The fight isn't hard enough warrant coordinating that proximity for 6 seconds of reduced damage, not to mention, the stomps from each are not timed up, and I believe are approximately 6 seconds apart, making the damage reduction useless unless you are trying to reduce the other teams crystal damage, which I'm still not sure would be timed up correctly, either way, it's not worth it.

Me: moderately useful.
You: Moderately useful, he says. Increasing DG's distance to hit not 3 raid members normally, but all 10, is "moderately useful." I'd love to see how you heal; probably drop Holy Radiance on the lone Hunter 30yds away from everyone.


I'm guessing this was a quote from HM Zon'ozz again. Just before the black phase begins, when the ball is about to hit Zon'ozz, the raid is in range of DG without the 4 piece. We use DG here, as the most damage goes out as soon as the black phase starts, so by the time it drops, enough eyes are down that healing is not an issue. And as I said earlier, if you are doing 5 bounces, you can only use DG for 2 black phases (out of 4, 5 will hit hard enrage).

Me: HM Hagara ->
You: Distance increase affects your whole raid, as opposed to half or less than half of them.


Yes, as I said, the biggest benefit of DG here will come during ice lances, no reason for everyone not to be in range during ice lances? It's a 30 yard radius (which is a 60 yard diameter) no reason to have the soakers standing on the outer ring taking lances.

Me: M Ultraxion
You: You're recommending the wrong set and clearly haven't seen Theck's theorycrafting on the numbers behind T13 2pc for Prot. T12 Prot 2pc is better; you should equip T12 2pc Prot/T13 2pc Ret for this. Obviously, 391s for the T12.


My entire listing was based on whether to wear Prot 4 piece for bonus, or Ret 2 piece.

Me: Blackhorn
You: Unnecessary, but I will gladly wait for you to find 3 heroic offset tanking pieces so you can stop Blackhorn's damage on heroic.


Well, me and a priest are the only ones on that tier token in raid. But yea, I have debated my first heroic shoulder/legs token, which piece I would buy. Probably Prot, as my dps will mean less for kills on Blackhorn/Spine/Madness.

Me: Normal Spine/Madness 4 piece analysis
You: HM Spine/Madness


If you looked, I addressed the normal mode Spine/Madness, I didn't talk about HM because I haven't done them. I point this out.

I'll keep you updated on my thoughts as my guild gets there though.
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87 Blood Elf Paladin
8070
05/04/2012 06:57 AMPosted by Lesaberisa


You don't have to brag about your progression so that's completely irrelevant. If you're going to laugh at someone's progression you better be farther than them. Not only that but he didn't even bring up his "amazing" progression either unless I missed it. You brought up his.


Actually Pallisade did bring it up first in post #13 (sarcastically commenting on Celyndrashad's progression to downplay his analysis of the usefulness of the set bonus). I would say how far you are doesn't really matter w/regards to tier bonuses though; if you're progressing on normal modes a tier bonus can be just as useful as if you are progressing on hardmodes.


I didn't brag about my progress.

But hey - no one has to listen to me, I'm just giving my opinion based on my experience. You can certainly take Celyn's word for it, she's 4/8 normal.


It would be a stretch to call that bragging, I would call it validating an opinion.

Though I will say looking back over this chain, there is one caveat I would like to put on my posts, that I now realize I haven't. For first time kills, I generally am wearing Prot 4 piece, as healers learning the fight need more help. After we have something on farm status, Prot 4 piece goes away, Ret 2 piece comes out (aside from on Ultraxion, that was Ret 2 piece day 1).

My analysis of the fights is from a farm perspective, giving a big cushion to learn with always helps. The first few times (or weeks) we do a new HM fight, we have little chance to win, so I don't care about dps. We just go in a practice and get familiar, and for that the 4 piece is good. After we have learned the fight (even if it's not dead), I'll switch and go back to Ret 2 piece.

Things are situational, but there is only one fight where adding hit rating is acceptable, regardless of your raid composition. Can a tank adding 3k dps make a fight? sure. Should it ever be on the tank to do that? Not when the tank is beating half the raid in dps. That is squarely on the dps's shoulders. If you choose to make yourself a martyr that is your decision.

I would find Celyn's opinions a lot more valid if just one week, you went with this HM friends you have and at least cleared normal mode - then I could listen to your opinion for a full normal mode clear.
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100 Human Paladin
20740
05/04/2012 07:35 AMPosted by Pallisade
I didn't brag about my progress.


I didn't say you bragged, I said you brought it up, thus (unnecessarily) adding it into the conversation.

In any case, the point is that saying "Well I only use other gear when the fight is safe to do so", well of course. People don't really ask what gear to wear or what bonuses are good for farm fights, they're interested in knowing what will help them get kills or do better on fights they're struggling in. Most people on this forum are probably still in the "progressing through DS" stage and the 4p is almost certainly going to have a lot more value for them than someone who has half of heroic DS on farm.

I will say I also don't think there's a lot about the hardmodes that requires actually doing them to be able to speak about them this tier, honestly, outside of Spine and Madness, as it mostly involves "things hit harder" apart from maybe setting up a CD rotation for Focused Assault, maybe having to change your Hour soaking strat on Ultrax and knowing how to position Blackhorn/Goriana in Phase 2. Someone who's actually done the fights could provide additional useful advice, but the guides/videos out there (and the nature of the fights themselves) means they're pretty easy to pick up unless you haven't even done them on normal or something. As long as someone isn't claiming to know everything about every fight despite not doing them, I don't see the problem if they are getting the facts right. YMMV.
Edited by Lesaberisa on 5/4/2012 7:52 AM PDT
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
19040
05/04/2012 06:57 AMPosted by Lesaberisa
Actually Pallisade did bring it up first in post #13 (sarcastically commenting on Celyndrashad's progression to downplay his analysis of the usefulness of the set bonus).


Not what I was referring to.

Saying someone doesn't have experience and shouldn't be commenting is different then saying "Lol guys back off I'm 5/8H and really good at this game."

He didn't bring up his experience and boast that he's amazing. For this specific argument saying you don't have experience so don't comment is slightly irrelevant. Really it's not terribly hard to research and regurgitate information, but it's an argument I usually use on people who try to complain about certain aspects of the game. It's like how some people in PvP who are random BG heroes and complain about how OP some classes are when they're actually pretty useless in competitive PvP.
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