Prot t13 set bonuses

87 Blood Elf Paladin
8070
05/04/2012 03:00 PMPosted by Lesaberisa
Also, you can't assume you'll generate a proc on your first CS, it's much more likely to happen after 1 of 3 CS, as I outlined in my rotation.


Except, of course, everybody has at least some hit/expertise on their gear and hit/expertise are better than ret 2p for what you want (DPS and reliable holy power generation). Not missing in the first place is better than not getting hurt as much if you do miss.


I fail to see how these two statements are linked? Generating a proc (and the inherent value that proc has) has very little to do with having 'some hit/expertise' on your gear (other than a miss can't generate a proc). Having 8% hit or 0% hit doesn't change the proc rate.

05/04/2012 03:00 PMPosted by Lesaberisa
For someone who just played down the value of semantics, I find it interesting that you have now twice brought up me saying hit was worthless. I only say hit is worthless, because if I could convert all hit I had into 1 of: mastery, dodge, parry, expertise, stamina, or strength, I would. Sure crit or haste would be worse, but crit and haste is not on any tank gear. You might as well say 'it's better than agility' following your 'logic.'


You were the one who stupidly played the "few means 3" pedant card, so spare me this nonsense. You also did not state any caveats of any kind regarding hit's worth (introducing them now just to cover yourself because your point was nonsensical), and seeing as you're advocating using ret gear, of course crit/haste come into play.


Forgive me for assuming that tanks would be wearing tank gear? You're right of course, I have a bunch of leather, mail, and plate int gear that I sub in from time to time.

05/04/2012 03:00 PMPosted by Lesaberisa
It's fine though, pretend Grand Crusader doesn't mean more when wearing Ret 2 piece, I just showed you how it makes a difference, and how manipulating your rotation based on the proc can have you generate holy power much more efficiently, but I'm sure you have already experienced that difference, since you use (admittedly) this set up yourself. Why aren't you just going for hit? You can read all about it in your threads.


Is this meant to be a coherent statement?


Talk about Ad Hominem . . . but I'll simplify it for you. I presented evidence of a flaw in the simulation that you presented. Then I asked why you play in a set of armor exactly like I am suggesting, when you claim just getting hit would be better?

It's already been linked and said many times that ret 2 piece loses value as you get hit/expertise, which you're going to have on your gear regardless (it also loses value on Ultraxion since he doesn't parry, for that matter). Stat weights have been shown showing how hit/expertise provide more bang for your buck itemization wise and don't cost your raid a raid CD which is much more likely to be useful than 600-1000 DPS (not the 3k you tried to claim initially).

I use the 2p ret in 5 mans with a special set where I'm hit-capped and expertise-capped because I don't need tank gear. I'm not advocating using it in raids on progression ("first kills") content like you are.


Not as you get hit/expertise, as you get HIT CAPPED. There is a big difference. If you are forging away from hit, it means more. If you are forging / gemming into hit, it means less.
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87 Blood Elf Paladin
8070
Your posts are just all over the place;

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/4768479549?page=2#38

Though I will say looking back over this chain, there is one caveat I would like to put on my posts, that I now realize I haven't. For first time kills, I generally am wearing Prot 4 piece, as healers learning the fight need more help. After we have something on farm status, Prot 4 piece goes away, Ret 2 piece comes out (aside from on Ultraxion, that was Ret 2 piece day 1).


You also added

My analysis of the fights is from a farm perspective, giving a big cushion to learn with always helps. The first few times (or weeks) we do a new HM fight, we have little chance to win, so I don't care about dps. We just go in a practice and get familiar, and for that the 4 piece is good. After we have learned the fight (even if it's not dead), I'll switch and go back to Ret 2 piece.


You later say

As for your TLDR - I am advocating the use of Ret 2 piece for FIRST TIME KILLS. Not trivial farm content. No normal mode raid requires the use of it to beat a mechanic, and a raid full of instance geared toons (that wouldn't even have the option) could clear it.


While talking past the fact that the way your guild tackles progression in hardmodes is probably very different than someone at a different stage progression-wise. You also contradict yourself, as you first say you keep prot 4p for first kills because it makes the healers' lives easier, then repeatedly stating you don't do so. Which is it?


You do realize there is more than one boss right? It would depend on the fight. Some fights I was still in the Prot 4 piece and we downed it, for Ultrax, Blackhorn, Spine, and Madness, I know our first kills I was wearing Ret 2 piece. I'll start logging my armor set ups for you.
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100 Human Paladin
20170
05/04/2012 03:15 PMPosted by Pallisade
I fail to see how these two statements are linked? Generating a proc (and the inherent value that proc has) has very little to do with having 'some hit/expertise' on your gear (other than a miss can't generate a proc). Having 8% hit or 0% hit doesn't change the proc rate.


I'm not sure what's hard to understand. I'm stating the obvious that hit/expertise also provide more reliable holy power generation, are present on tank gear (and through the SoT glyph) and reduce the value of the 2p bonus. The beneficial nature of hit/expertise I'm referring to is that it's better to have a CS/ability hit than be "less screwed if it doesn't".

Forgive me for assuming that tanks would be wearing tank gear? You're right of course, I have a bunch of leather, mail, and plate int gear that I sub in from time to time.


What's your point? You've been arguing in favor of using DPS gear which has stats like haste/crit that both don't benefit a tank defensively at all and are distinctly inferior than hit and expertise as offensive stats. So you're losing defensive stats, losing value from your offensive stats, etc.

Talk about Ad Hominem . . . but I'll simplify it for you.


It was an actual question. You start by talking about Grand Crusader and then end by asking about my reforging.

I presented evidence of a flaw in the simulation that you presented. Then I asked why you play in a set of armor exactly like I am suggesting, when you claim just getting hit would be better?


I don't play in a set of armor exactly like you suggest. You really think I would waste time arguing against you if I did? If I was actually doing that I would say something like "I tank heroic DS progression in the same setup as Pallisade, but I don't recommend it". I don't.

Not as you get hit/expertise, as you get HIT CAPPED. There is a big difference.


No, you lose value as you get expertise capped too. Not having crusader strike parried/dodged is a big deal, hence the high stat weight for expertise as a DPS stat.

You do realize there is more than one boss right? It would depend on the fight. Some fights I was still in the Prot 4 piece and we downed it, for Ultrax, Blackhorn, Spine, and Madness, I know our first kills I was wearing Ret 2 piece. I'll start logging my armor set ups for you.


I really don't care about your personal strats, which is the point I've been harping on since my first post. You're taking your personal experiences and trying to turn them into broad advice, including your statement w/regards to normal modes acting as if progression only exists at the level at which you experience it.
Edited by Lesaberisa on 5/4/2012 3:26 PM PDT
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87 Blood Elf Paladin
8070
Plus none of the simulations take the occasional WoG into account, which will be recouped DPS much faster for Ret 2 Piece.

But as I've said before, you didn't convince me, I (guess) didn't convince you (but you're already doing it on your own).

I'd have taken you more seriously if you hadn't added internet points to the equation, but I'll play to my competitions level.

Ever try setting your own rules and sims instead of just reading about others? You can get much more exact results by going through the process yourself, rather than taking others work at face value.

And keep in mind sims don't equate to in-game results.
Edited by Pallisade on 5/4/2012 3:28 PM PDT
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100 Human Paladin
20170
05/04/2012 03:25 PMPosted by Pallisade
I'd have taken you more seriously if you hadn't added internet points to the equation, but I'll play to my competitions level.


Don't try to BS me with stupid technicalities about the numerical value of "few" then. I spend more than enough time around lawyers and other, similar, types to have had more than my fill of people playing pedantic games.

Ever try setting your own rules and sims instead of just reading about others? You can get much more exact results by going through the process yourself, rather than taking others work at face value.


Physician, heal thyself. You haven't even bothered to link to or do any actual math or simming either.

And keep in mind sims don't equate to in-game results.


Indeed, since you're not actually going to execute your rotation perfectly. That only emphasizes a later point I made, which is that hit/expertise have a lot more value than you think.
Edited by Lesaberisa on 5/4/2012 3:32 PM PDT
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87 Blood Elf Paladin
8070
05/04/2012 03:30 PMPosted by Lesaberisa
Don't try to BS me with stupid technicalities about the numerical value of "few" then. I spend more than enough time around lawyers and other, similar, types to have had more than my fill of people playing pedantic games.


All I can think about is Peter Griffin noting that he finds Lois meatloaf 'shallow and pedantic.' Maybe if you use variations of pedantic more, people will know how sophisticated you are.

M'yes, shallow and pedantic. /monocle.
Edited by Pallisade on 5/4/2012 3:36 PM PDT
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85 Dwarf Death Knight
13340
We should Sim how dumb this thread could keep getting. ;)
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85 Human Paladin
9085
That was a fortunate break in posting; I was able to obtain more popcorn.

Or are you two finished?
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
05/04/2012 01:28 AMPosted by Gîlga
you're healing yourself for 1.2k HPS which is good play to survive but it completely useless and depletes what you say when you're trying to say "If survival is not an issue and damage is then exp/hit is the way to go.".


Well the logs dont show it but almost all those heals were during an HoT in which my healers forgot to top me off. When i have a comfortable hp pool i prefer to hit him with an SotR.

05/04/2012 01:28 AMPosted by Gîlga
The way to go when you have reached the CtC cap is stamina with my tank spec I am expertise capped because I had extra points but I just reforged 100% pointless to gem for it.


Still in my ret2pt13/prot2pt12 set but if you could see my tanking gear you see that almost all my exp/hit comes from reforging. Well except the wrist in which i put on precision =P

05/04/2012 01:28 AMPosted by Gîlga
Dps is a major issue for your group at this current time my suggestion would be to advise your members to watch some youtube videos and to read basic dps guides such as Noxxic.com


Been doing that though i have been suggesting Icyveins =)

Right now, i think our biggest issue is HW mishaps. Our top dps is a ret paladin who does 28-29k dps. But his UI is buggy and not showing the debuff and we have had to macro in a rw to help him know when to hit HW.

Losing him really hurts us. There are others who are having issues with HW as well and we do have times when we get peeps with FL RIGHT before HoT and have to eat it. Our top ret i convinced to glyph DP for this fight just in case that happens to him. If this was not such a tight enrage id like to use my 4p so in case that happens ill have an extra DG up to help.

05/04/2012 01:28 AMPosted by Gîlga
read guides to help with their dps


I really have tried. I brought in a mage friend from alliance side who does 40k dps to talk to two of our mages. One of them took it to heart and now occasionally beats our ret. Im trying to sweet talk him into going fire atm >.>

But in a guild that values having fun and encourages people so long as they are trying you have to tough some things out.

05/04/2012 01:28 AMPosted by Gîlga
Your glyphs are incorrect as well the focused shield is great for single target fights but when are only spec'd into 1 point of a free avengers shield kinda pointless. the word of glory is a horrible tank glyph you should use crusader strike instead for damage purposes. Speccing into word of glory protective shield is also useless you are saying survival is not an issue why are you speccing and glyphing into these things?


Well FS is really the only dps option for majors so even with 1/2 GrC its a dps increase. I switch my glyphs based on the fights and WoG is one i change out as needed. I like it for when im going for survival and i guess i did not switch it out last time.

I abuse the crap out of GbtL on Zon (who i mentioned i usually go full prot gear for). He been farm content for a while but the moment i think we have him down something goes haywire and we will spend most of the night trying to down him. I probably should respec between fights. Thank you.

Though thinking about it there really is no movement during Ultrax so PoJ would probably be a better talent to drop for 2/2 GrC. That way i can keep GbtL incase my healers leave me too low for HoT.

05/04/2012 01:37 AMPosted by Gîlga
Also why do you have avalanche? landslide is preferred for someone who claims you need more dps.


=(

Because due to real life issues (mostly a family member whose going out of their way to intentionally make me playing wow as hard as possible) i have cut my wow time down to 2 days. I log on and make a mad dash to raise funds for elixirs, food, and dusts of disappearance and then go to DS and log out. Peace in the family>me not being broke. I have about 100g on me altogether atm.

So i took what mats i had in my bank borrowed the rest from a friend and got the best chant i could.

But thanks for the nice reply and suggestions. Definitely will change my spec for next week (no raid for me this week).
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90 Human Warlock
6435
The amount of stupid in this thread is really getting out of hand.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
It's actually third following strength and expertise. But in the big scheme of things:
Mastery>Block/Parry>Stamina>expertise>hit.

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=593315#p593315

SHPS and stat weights
SHPS/10 DPS Stat Weights
ipoints (per point of stat, not itemization-normalized)
exp 2.7267 3.6512
hit 1.9506 2.4005
str 0.47397 1.3988
ap 0.31415 0.59324


Str does not come close to hit.

Furthermore, avoidance stats are for healer mana and stress. Block capping greatly helps their stress and they have enough regen that avoidance is one of our least important stats post block cap. Even treckie said he'd rather have exp/hit to dodge/parry for DS.

But your stats are wrong as not all fights are the same. You yourself are sacrificing survival stats for the ret 2p. The values of the stats depend on the fight.

05/04/2012 06:08 AMPosted by Pallisade
No I think the answer to a dps problem is to have viable dps in your raid make up so that it's possible to kill a boss.


Huh. And once again you think all raids are like yours and fail to answer the question. Most people coming to this forum for help are from casual guilds. If they were in a progression guild they would go to maintankadin for tanking or EJ for dps and they would find this info out themselves.

Casual guilds are not gonna replace friends like that. Casual guilds dont always have enough people to fill all those spots even if they wanted. Your answer not only is not an answer, it fails to address real world issue the people coming to this forum are facing.

Having never killed Ultraxion, there is no way you have ever even started the Blackhorn event. Anything you can say, short of start off 'I have read that . . . .' is going to hold little water.


How are you enjoying the North Pole in your bathing suit? I told you it was cold up there...but you didn't believe me cause i was never there personally.

But here we go you discount the experience of everyone who is not you when you have contradicted yourself at almost every post, and shown an alarming lack of knowledge of theorycrafting. Its entirely possible for a person to get carried through all content and not know anything and give bad advise. And its entirely possible for someone to read up, and understand the fight and give good opinions on the subject. This is to a large degree what an education is: Getting other peoples experiences so as to avoid those mistakes yourself.

But as evidence:

If i say you have to kill Blackhorn him in less than 4 mins or he enrages would that be wrong? If i said that need to watch out for his cone attack or you could be stunned and unable to block, dodge, parry would i be wrong?

I dont need to do the encounter to know basic things or give basic advise which is what i did. What i said was the tanking equivalent of DONT STAND IN THE FIRE to dps. Advise i gave in the last thread YOU YOURSELF FOLLOW after castigating me for it.

No this is not about my advise or information being bad. Its not about me. Its about you trying to make yourself look good at my expense.

Exactly, I believe you are primarily a theory crafter. I don't care if someone doesn't have HM DS experience. I care if they try to give advice for fights they have never been able to take part in.


Did i ever say based on my experience on the fight? Did i ever say this is how you do so in so. No i gave basic overall advise and even then i dont need to do the fight to know things like avoid the stun, stack so the ship doesn't sink.

And lets say my theorycrafting says you need to have X amount of hp with all cds up and all buffs and debuffs accounted to survive an encounter I have not done? And someone who was carried thru said encounter comes in and says dont listen to them they havent done the fight you can go in with less than that.

Who would be the better person to listen to? The one who has done the math knows what the abilities hit for and found the exact minimum health or the guy who doesn't even know what EH stands for and thinks the bosses dont hit that hard cause he has 3x as much hp as needed and doesnt see his hp dip that much?

Continuing:
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
To go along with Celyn, if survivability isn't an issue there is no reason not to increase your dps - his/her argument, because of enrage timers, is invalid because his/her raid lacks the dps to finish an encounter, no amount of tank dps will make up for that.

Would his/her group down Ultraxion if he/she didn't reforge for hit? No. Does a lack of dps (from dps dying, and bad dps) justify gearing for hit? No. It simply means the dps need to pick it up. No matter how good of buddies they are, how many quests they have completed together, the raid dps is the problem, not one that Celyn is going to fix from gearing/gemming/reforging.


Every time we downed a boss with only a few seconds to an enrage disprove you.

Furthermore, anything that might help is justified. Avoiding hit for some mysterious reason no one understands is illogical. And to trade it for avoidance which does nothing in DS? Thats.....words can not express my feelings on that.

We did one Ultrax with a druid who as a bear did 6k dps. My 19k dps as a tank means we have to do 14% less damage than we would with that bear. Thats significant. My dps would have to pick it up only 7% to kill ultraxion before the soft enrage gets us (around 5mins). With him they would have to pick it up 24%. With a 10k tank its 13% We are wiping with me solo tanking in previous runs at 7%.

Yes my dps is helping and we are far more likely to increase our damage 7% than with other tanks. Every little bit helps.

05/04/2012 11:20 AMPosted by Pallisade
The Ret 2 piece bonus, specifically from shoulders and legs (because of the mastery) maintains (it might even be better, I don't know off hand) a paladins CTC via block rating.


Its a ctc loss.

05/04/2012 11:20 AMPosted by Pallisade
hit is one of them (the absolute worst one, hands down, that isn't even an opinion, it is a fact).


Blatantly false.

Expertise to 26>hit to 8%>expertise to 56>str>stamina>crit>haste.

See my prior MT link.

05/04/2012 11:20 AMPosted by Pallisade
The expertise softcap is easily met, and is pretty affordable stat wise for even normal mode geared paladin tanks.


It takes almost the exact same amount of rating for a 1% increase. 30expertise for 1expertise or a 0.25% increase, 120 hit for a 1% increase. Also if you dont need the avoidance then trading it for hit is a good trade.

To speak to you on your level and to quote you "Absurd example is absurd." As much as I'm sure you'd like to see me in a speedo.


It was not an example so much as it was a refutation. You imply that i could not have correct and vital information without experience. I showcase that i know about a place i have never been too. I have never been to the NP which is true. Yet i know its cold which is also true. Nothing i said was absurd.

Your example was absurd as i niether have done or tried to do an encounter with 9 healers, or suggested as much. Furthermore we all know that with enrage timers thats not doable. The idea that someone would try to do so is absurd.

No, again, I will say, this is specifically for you, not all normal mode tanks. No other normal mode tanks are here trying to give advice.


And if they were you would castigate them as you do to me? Normal mode tanks cant give good advise or if you disagree with it then its instantly wrong cause you are the god of this game?

You are essentially saying that if your arent doing H DS you have no say. That in and of itself IS looking down at all normal mode tanks. Its looking down at everyone who is not as progressed as you. Maybe you should reread all your posts again and try to read it as "okay im a normal mode tank." Think of your posts as that of someone else.

No the fact that you attack me for giving advise which as i have proven from you failing to provide 1 example of me being wrong while i have provided several of me being right shows you have no respect for normal mode tanks at all.

Continuing:
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Your analogy is inaccurate. Economic policy knowledge has nothing to do with being employed. Having intimate raid knowledge has a lot to do with having intimate raid experience. Saying you don't have enough raid experience is not an attack on your person, it is a fact.


Try again. Much as not having a job does not mean you dont know economic policy, so does not having done a specific raid does not mean you dont understand raiding in general.

Its an implication.

You do not have a Job=>You dont know Economic Policy
You have not done a specific raid=>you have no raid knowledge

Being an implication it can only be untrue if first half is true and the second half is false.

So if i have not done Korlon but i say standing in the fire is bad that is an example of the first half being true, but the 2nd half false. Basic logic.

F=>F can work. T=>T This can be true. F=>T This can not work. T=>F Can be true.

The an implication is only wrong if T=>F does not works. F=>T does not work, and T=>F works. The implication is not logical.

Thats why the economic policy example is a logical fallicy and why your implication is too. When the first half of the implication is true the 2nd half can be false.

Conversely

If your washing machine breaks=>a repairman will work on it.

T=>T (works), F=>F (works), F=>T (works), T=>F breaks the implication

This is a logical implication.
05/04/2012 06:08 AMPosted by Pallisade
You assume I have no faith from my raid group here.


Did not say that. I assume you give up on people who are trying....which you confirmed twice.

05/04/2012 06:08 AMPosted by Pallisade
I have not yet thrown my hands up and quit on anything.


Your mage example and the statement :

05/04/2012 06:08 AMPosted by Pallisade
No I think the answer to a dps problem is to have viable dps in your raid make up so that it's possible to kill a boss.


Disprove this. Another contradiction.

To go along with Celyn, if survivability isn't an issue there is no reason not to increase your dps - his/her argument, because of enrage timers, is invalid because his/her raid lacks the dps to finish an encounter, no amount of tank dps will make up for that.

Would his/her group down Ultraxion if he/she didn't reforge for hit? No. Does a lack of dps (from dps dying, and bad dps) justify gearing for hit? No. It simply means the dps need to pick it up. No matter how good of buddies they are, how many quests they have completed together, the raid dps is the problem, not one that Celyn is going to fix from gearing/gemming/reforging.


Beating bosses within seconds of an enrage disproves this. Your ultraxion example disproves this as well. We had a bear who did 6k dps. I was doing 19k as prot. My extra dps would allow for 3.9 million less damage over 5mins (about where we fall apart) to kill Ultraxion. 14% Less damage needed.

That is significant especially since were wiping at 7%. If some of our dps increase their damage by ~7% my prot dps will get us a kill long before the bear. With just said bear we would need a 27% increase in damage. Similarly i had another prot pally join us and he did 10k dps...we would need a 13% increase in damage.
Honestly im through with you on this. You have contradicted yourself, and gotten facts wrong so many times that every time you post you prove everything i have said.

Yes it justifies reforging for hit. Anything that can in anyway lighten the load will help.

05/04/2012 03:05 PMPosted by Pallisade
other than to ask Celyn when wearing T12 normal pieces was ever accepted)


Dont remember seeing you say this but all normal mode raiders were wearing T12 normal pieces going into T13 or at least LFR...

05/04/2012 06:59 PMPosted by Xerties
The amount of stupid in this thread is really getting out of hand.


/nods

so with that:

@Pallisade

Im done with you. You could not provide me with 1 example i asked for. You have repeatedly contradicted yourself and gotten basic theorycrafting wrong. With every post you make you only further our points.

Your issues with me is you just trying to make yourself look better at my expense when anyone looking at your replies here can see that other than an irrational dislike of hit you do exactly what i suggested.
Edited by Celyndrashad on 5/4/2012 9:14 PM PDT
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90 Human Warlock
6435
/nods

so with that:

@Pallysade

Im done with you. You could not provide me with 1 example i asked for. You have repeatedly contradicted yourself and gotten basic theorycrafting wrong. With every post you make you only further our points.


I have tried like 6 times to read this entire thread and make heads or tails of the stupid, and I have yet to do it. All I have figured out is Pallisade is trying to pull the "it works for us" type of argument all the while trying to play the "progression card." My brain hurts.
Edited by Xerties on 5/4/2012 9:18 PM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
/nods

so with that:

@Pallysade

Im done with you. You could not provide me with 1 example i asked for. You have repeatedly contradicted yourself and gotten basic theorycrafting wrong. With every post you make you only further our points.


I have tried like 6 times to read this entire thread and make heads or tails of the stupid, and I have yet to do it. All I have figured out is Pallisade is trying to pull the "it works for us" type of argument all the while trying to play the "progression card."


All i said in the original thread (during your hiatus) was:

If survival is not an issue and damage is going for more exp/hit is not a bad idea.


In this one I said:

Gearing is situational. Talk to your healers and base your gearing decisions based on the needs of your raid group. Understand why we gear the way we do and do not let yourself be blindly led by some strangers on a forum.


Apparently this is now highly controversial. Here i thought it was common sense.

Funny cause i was kinda paraphrasing you when i said the part about being blindly led.
Edited by Celyndrashad on 5/4/2012 9:20 PM PDT
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90 Human Warlock
6435

All i said in the original thread (during your hiatus) was:

If survival is not an issue and damage is going for more exp/hit is not a bad idea.


Absolutely 100% true. Heck I used to do crazy things like tank with DPS trinkets to see how much damage I could do.

In this one I said:

Gearing is situational. Talk to your healers and base your gearing decisions based on the needs of your raid group. Understand why we gear the way we do and do not let yourself be blindly led by some strangers on a forum.


Apparently this is now highly controversial. Here i thought it was common sense.

Funny cause i was kinda paraphrasing you when i said the part about being blindly led.


Also 100% true. I used to do really stupid things in early Cata based on this idea. I was constantly changing how I was gemmed and geared. It's how I developed my dislike of straight Mastery gems. When we were learning fights I used to change when I used my cooldowns on a per attempt basis. I even did an entire Nefarion with SoI and only using ShoR like once.

As a tank you want to constantly be changing what you are doing slightly, be it with gear set ups, cooldown management, and just things in general to try and find the most optimal approach for each situation. All the while talking to your healers to see what is working best for them. You may think one thing is working well but in reality it may not be.

Granted I don't really tank anymore but this still applies. Short of cooldown management timings for fights, there was next to nothing someone could tell me about pally tanking that I didn't know. But you know what, I always spent time trying to find something I didn't know. If I thought of something, I would make a discussion about it. I would always be reading about my class and even other tanks to try and find a new idea. I took the time to understand why I was supposed to do something instead of just accepting it.

As a result I was able to explain my choices to everything that I did. For crying out loud there is a "Xayton spec" which takes 2/2 Reckoning and 1/2 PoJ. I started using that in the start of Cata for the extra threat and little bit of healing I could squeeze out because I was trying to maximize both my threat, damage, and survivability. I was one of the only people who never advocated the use of straight mastery gems, mostly because I didn't like that idea of having low health (mostly because I used to tank H ICC 25 and it was drilled into my head). But the idea worked very well for people when they tried it. I was able to explain every choice I made, because I took the time to learn.

The only arguments that I ever really ran into were "it works for me" and "progression card" arguments. And I can't think of a single time where the other person was right when they tried to use those kinds of arguments. I used to know a guy who swore that SotP was a better DPS increase then Crusade was in Wrath, what math clearly said he was wrong.

Pallisade I will use you as an example. There is very little benefit in taking the EG talent. Not only is WoG on a 20 sec CD making the idea of the talent useless, SotP is a larger constant DPS increase then EG is. So in reality you are gaining nothing by taking it.
Also from a pure mitigation standpoint you are using the wrong meta gem, Eternal provides more damage reduction for you. But I am willing to be you didn't take the time to think about that, because "it works for me."
Edited by Xerties on 5/4/2012 9:43 PM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Yep.

Like i said above im probably gonna switch to the Xayton spec next week.

I have to admit im addicted to my WoG bubbles >.>

IF we still cant do it, ill probably use your high threat/dps build.

With the buff at 20% and me solo tanking with 2 healers we can break the soft enrage with an average dps of 19k (by my math) which is where im at on tanking dps. Currently, my guild has gotten to the point that everyone save the healer who goes dps can either equal me or beat me on the meters.

If they dont get it down tomorrow without me (finals >.<) then we definately got him next week!
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85 Human Paladin
9085
Hah, I figured that warlock was Xayton. I need to read the paladin forums more often.

@ Celyndrashad: its a kill as soon as your lower dps shadowpriest and moonkin keep their dots on the boss. The priest keeps wiping his off with mind spike (which he shouldn't even be using outside of AA/fiend with 4 piece), and the moonkin just isn't casting them.

Also, Ultraxion's damage isn't resistible. Use a different trinket if possible.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Thanks for the advise ill tell them =D

Yeah this trinket sucks for Ultra thanks again! I must have left it on by mistake. I usually use my VP trinket but must have left mirror on for Zon/yor.

I think hooves told me not to use it for Ultra in another thread at the start of the expansion.
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Appreciate the sentiment. But despite the buff downing this bastard ourselves is gonna be so awesome!
\/
Edited by Celyndrashad on 5/4/2012 10:00 PM PDT
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90 Human Warlock
6435
If only Blizz would let me server transfer for a week then go back to my server, I would just carry you.

As for trinkets, go pick up Essence of the Eternal Flame

Hah, I figured that warlock was Xayton. I need to read the paladin forums more often.


Cuz the hair, face, guild name, the X in my name, and being the only random warlock posting on the pally forum about tanking, don't give it away. <3
Edited by Xerties on 5/4/2012 9:58 PM PDT
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