Self-healing needs to be looked at in MOP...

85 Human Warlock
4600
05/08/2012 01:31 PMPosted by Ratak
Being that you responded to it 20 minutes after I posted it, and the 'deadline' for deleting posts is 15 minutes, and that it was up for less than that, and you responded with a pretty short post... yeah.


I'm at work, sometimes I have to tab out when a coworker wanders by. Just saying it's annoying to reply to a post, only to find that post deleted so nobody even knows what I'm on about. I could see leaving the conversation, but why delete the post?

05/08/2012 01:31 PMPosted by Ratak
Blood strike


Was in main DPS rotations at the level cap. Will be pruned like all mechanics that have become outdated. You're not making much of a point here.

05/08/2012 01:31 PMPosted by Ratak
shadow ward, nether ward, armor damage mitigation, raid mechanics that hurt melee more than ranged, or raid mechanics that warlocks can completely negate or have other tools to excel with


These were accounted for before healing was added to the classes in question. The game has been through many iterations of balance where warlocks had self-healing and rogues/hunters/etc did not. When these classes suddenly gained self-healing, warlock self-healing was actually nerfed to an all-time low. Warlocks did not receive additional mitigation. Other pure DPS did not lose mitigation. So why the sudden shift? No reason really, Blizz wanted to help out those classes in the leveling process so they shoehorned healing abilities into classes that were never meant to have any. Then when these new self-healers actually had a number to compare to warlocks, they used that as a reason to QQ until warlock self-healing was nerfed closer to their level. The messed up part is that the numbers people cried over were largely from out of combat and pet heals, leaving warlocks a mere shadow of their past self-healing strength that made the class unique and attractive (and function solo).

Meh, you're just gonna be obtuse now so I'll leave you to it. People with valid points don't delete their posts.
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100 Goblin Warlock
17215
05/08/2012 10:10 AMPosted by Ratak
Blizzard added self-healing to rogues, hunters, etc. to aid with leveling.


What about end-game raiding and PvP? Seems like all the classes need some self-healing for those, and that is why they were added, not leveling.

And yes, all classes need tools to remain competitive in that way.

As far as balance is concerned, if you were looking for ACTUAL balance, you should probably find another game. Honestly, Blizzard has stopped trying to balance the classes, and at this point they're just going for cyclical "Everybody gets a chance to not completely suck" with legendaries and encounter mechanics and trinkets, in both PvE and PvP. Suck it up, or play a different game if you don't like that design, because I can't see it changing.


If other classes needed self healing for pvp and raiding, they would have buffed lock self healing when they gave the other classes theirs. They did not. Thus it was not made for raiding/pvp since locks already take damage in raids when there is no raid damage.
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90 Undead Warlock
TF
18105
Ratak,

Are you talking about the beta? If so I believe you have been misinformed.

As an Affliction, I can not do my rotation on a dummy for more than 3-4 minutes before I am oom. Not just out of mana, but at 5% health. (This is using HS). I imagine with soul leech/GoSac I might last longer. But that goes against the "Required Talents". There are a few glyphs that can heal or mitigate Life taps dmg: Glyph of Life tap, Healthstone, and Corruption. But again, that is requiring 1-3/3 MAJOR glyphs to make the class playable (when there are already dps improving major glyphs: Soul Shards, Doom, Soul Swap, Dark Souls)

Affliction has no self healing unless glyphed (major), talented, or change rotation and drop dps to become health neutral (same as saying lets have all ret pallies stop dps at 3 holy power, cast a few holy lights, then can dps again).

I even tried out Harvest Life (was hearing some reports it did decent dmg). It takes 3 targets being hit with the spell to even hit the ooc healing we receive. And Harvest Souls is designed for one reason, leveling. Doesn't work in combat or pvp.

If you are talking on live. I believe you're mistaken again. Affliction self healing is in the top half of specs, but not the highest. Demo has very little. And now that CB is removed from Destro rotation, theirs has gone way down as well.

tl;dr

On live, yes Affliction self heals make up for Life tap. On beta, NO they do not. Not in any way for any spec.

Edited for typos.
Edited by Mecorb on 5/8/2012 4:33 PM PDT
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100 Goblin Warlock
17215
Just because it worked like that in the past doesn't mean it was balanced. Look at balance as it is now, not how it used to be back in vanilla - that's dumb.

A) Is warlock self-healing higher than other classes? Yes.

B) Does that amount make up for life tap? Yes.

End of QQ.


Warlock self healing minus lifetap is less than other classes/specs. Recup which subtlety uses in pve heals the rogue for more once you factor in lifetap for example.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
18405
And I mean seriously looked at. When rogues, warriors, DK's, outheal warlocks, there's a problem. When those same classes outheal classes that are balanced around being hybrid dps (under the assumption that they will off-heal themselves, lol), there is a serious problem.

Classes need to be based off the following:

Damage: x/10
Mitigation/Survivability: x/10
Control: x/10

And the total needs to add up to somewhere between 15-20.

The problem is that you have classes that are, arguably, 9's or 10's in every single area there. PVP SHOULD BE BALANCED 1V1. There is no excuse for it not to be, and going by that formula, would fix it once and for all.


If I have competitive top end progression DPS, then I could care less if I heal for zero.
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100 Goblin Warlock
17215
And I mean seriously looked at. When rogues, warriors, DK's, outheal warlocks, there's a problem. When those same classes outheal classes that are balanced around being hybrid dps (under the assumption that they will off-heal themselves, lol), there is a serious problem.

Classes need to be based off the following:

Damage: x/10
Mitigation/Survivability: x/10
Control: x/10

And the total needs to add up to somewhere between 15-20.

The problem is that you have classes that are, arguably, 9's or 10's in every single area there. PVP SHOULD BE BALANCED 1V1. There is no excuse for it not to be, and going by that formula, would fix it once and for all.


If I have competitive top end progression DPS, then I could care less if I heal for zero.


That's been the point about warlocks in the thread. No guild in their right mind would run warlocks if they didn't outheal lifetap. It used to be just that though. Your self heals would be a benefit beyond it. Now it barely is and in MoP it isn't close to it. So then you hit the point where you have other classes with self heals and not lifetapping to death.

Numbers on beta have not been balanced, so they can safely be ignored, and thanks for agreeing with me.


He didn't agree. He said balance not surpass.
Edited by Purebalance on 5/8/2012 5:28 PM PDT
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90 Undead Warlock
TF
18105
Ratak,

I did not agree with you.

You stated: "Aff is best heals, and it makes up for life tap"

On live, which will last for a few more months only, we can make up for Life Tap. But we are not anywhere near best heals.

And on beta, no number balancing can fix the fact that AFFLICTION HAS NO SELF HEALS!

Sorry you didn't read the post, or did and forgot by the time you hit reply. But Affliction warlocks have no self healing unless talented/major glyphed/or to change rotation to achieve with a drain. Considering Life Tap still exist, this means that unless they balance life tap to cost 0% health, therefor AFFLICTION WILL ALWAYS BE NEGATIVE HEALING!

Edited for grammar.
Edited by Mecorb on 5/8/2012 5:35 PM PDT
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90 Undead Warlock
TF
18105
Ratak,

I now believe your Race and Class is just a description. I will no longer reply to your trolling. Beta numbers =/= loss of all self heals, and LOL at demo/destro self heals.
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85 Troll Shaman
8775
Self healing in this game is beyond ridiculous. I think all DPS class should have 1 self heal, on a CD, that heals for the same amount as everyone else.

The only exception should be for tanks. Hybrids should not get this heal either.

While they are at it, things like frenzied regen be tank specific and not available to DPS
Edited by Spartashaman on 8/10/2012 6:31 AM PDT
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90 Human Warrior
11020
If you could go back in time and explain the future to a Vanilla rogue, they would laugh at the shear ridiculousness of it.


I think if I went back in time and explained anything in cata to a vanilla player, they would laugh at the ridiculousness of it.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
16005
Self healing was such a slippery slope to go down.

They'd be better off nerfing all self healing into the ground, and nerfing PvP damage into the ground. I might start PvPing again if it doesn't revolve around killing your opponent in less than 10 seconds.
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100 Goblin Warlock
17215
Self healing in this game is beyond ridiculous. I think all DPS class should have 1 self heal, on a CD, that heals for the same amount as everyone else.

The only exception should be for tanks. Hybrids should not get this heal either.

While they are at it, things like frenzied regen be tank specific and not available to DPS


Ok just as soon as all classes use health as a resource like locks.
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Okay. The only self healing that dks have, unless they're blood, is ghoul sac and lbdc heals and that's it. Both of those cost a lot of resources to do too. Dark succor is sh*t because of the nerf due to pvp complaints (a-holes), and death strike is also sh*t if you aren't blood since it's a crap heal.

But they do still have Death Strike, and do still have Dark Succour. They still exist, and they are still self-heals. To say that they are not is incorrect and just makes you look ignorant.

Now, whether 7% of maximum health/ 20% of damage taken in the last 5s is a reasonable amount given the cost and effective CD of Death Strike is another matter, as is whether Dark Succour is worth taking (as it's clearly intended as a Victory Rush equivalent, and they're really for soloing, it's not really that weak). In MoP as things are now DS is a bit weaker than a Ret's FoL or 3-point WoG if the DK isn't being focussed (assuming only self-buffs), and I don't think that DK have the ability to pop a massive healing throughput cooldown (but DS does scale with damage intake, and Ret heals do not). Dark Succour is stronger than a Supplication-powered FoL (ignoring Selfless Healer empowered FoLs cast on others). However, off-healing has been a Ret thing for the past, well, forever really.

I think there's a better case for other, stronger, self-heals possessed by DPS specs to by toned down, then for DS to get buffed.
Edited by Sharrow on 8/14/2012 7:08 AM PDT
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85 Human Rogue
11565
Rogue self-healing was added because people were complaining about their control, so cheap shot and kidney shot were set to DR each other and self-healing was given in response so that you could go toe-to-toe with a rogue and not be stunned for 10 seconds in a row. If anyone wants to turn back the clock, I'm up for it.
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