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so i am think i have way to much sprit and i need to get rid of some for mastery do u guys agree and how much is a good amount of spirt and how much is way to much

It's really dependent on you, your raid, and the content you're doing. You need enough spirit not to go oom, anything beyond that is wasted.

I've found as we get to the harder, longer, more heal intensive fights that I need more spirit than I did back when we were whomping heroic morchok and ultraxxion.

How much mana do you have left after the hardest fight your guild is doing? If your over 25% left you could probably reforge out of it. Most N madness kills and attempts I have been well under 25% with all cooldowns gone. I am probably on the low side for a holy priest but I make it work. If your other healers are really good you will heal less and need less spirit, if they are bad or undergeared you will need more.

A lot of that will depend on your play style. I use a low spirit/high mastery build, and have gone as low as 1800 spirit without having major mana issues. Granted, I am not doing heroic modes, and I have heard that for fights such as Heroic Spine, a low spirit build is chancy.

The biggest differences between a high spirit and a high mastery build is essentially how much casting you are doing and how important Harmony is to you. With a high spirit build, you can cast a lot, but your HoTs won't be hitting for very much. With a high mastery build, you can't cast as often, particularly things such as Regrowth, but the HoTs you have rolling hit like trucks, if you are keeping Harmony going. The Mastery play style does take a bit of getting used to, as you are managing your mana and Harmony actively, but I like it better and feel like I am more effective as a healer this way.

You may like the Spirit play style better, and as long as bosses are dying, that should be fine.

You have a lot of spirit. When I run with my Heart, I have something like 2700, and I routinely end fights above 60%. Not to mention, I play super aggressively.

what anarri said. thats a lot of spirit for a druid. especially if you are running 10s and have lesss people to rejuv you can get away with 2k spirit for sure.

You could take it to 4K ish regen which would give you 2k combat regen, which is what I've been using for our 10 man hero attempts.

04/26/2012 08:24 AMPosted by Sellys

It's really dependent on you, your raid, and the content you're doing. You need enough spirit not to go oom, anything beyond that is wasted.

Pretty much 99% of this is incorrect. The only dependent part is your gear. You wear greens/blues, spirit's not bad. You wearin' epics (372+ illvl)? Get rid of spirit.

To the OP, I just took a quick look at your spec/glyphs. Why on earth do you have the Healing Touch glyph when you aren't specced for Nature's Swiftness?

04/26/2012 12:52 PMPosted by Fleurs

It's really dependent on you, your raid, and the content you're doing. You need enough spirit not to go oom, anything beyond that is wasted.

Pretty much 99% of this is incorrect. The only dependent part is your gear. You wear greens/blues, spirit's not bad. You wearin' epics (372+ illvl)? Get rid of spirit.

So how much bad your raiders stand in (which means they require extra healing), how good their dps is (shorter fight, less time to spend mana) and whether or not you're doing heroic content where you may have to use fast expensive heals to keep someone from dying don't matter?

I killed 7/7H and 8/8H this expansion in relevent amounts of time while 100% reforged out of spirit. In my opinion it's mostly useless for resto druids.

Note: My t13 kill date was 3-4 weeks late because I was playing my shaman for SLT overpoweredness.

Pretty much 99% of this is incorrect. The only dependent part is your gear. You wear greens/blues, spirit's not bad. You wearin' epics (372+ illvl)? Get rid of spirit.

So how much bad your raiders stand in (which means they require extra healing), how good their dps is (shorter fight, less time to spend mana) and whether or not you're doing heroic content where you may have to use fast expensive heals to keep someone from dying don't matter?

I don't know what you're talking about.

What content you're doing doesn't change the fact that regen via revitalize (int) > spirit by miles.

The only times where spirit is "valuable" is when you have LOW amounts of int, ie: wearing greens/blues.

Some blues are actually not bad, so even getting into heroic blues, I'd suggest reforging your spirit for more mastery.

I don't understand how raiders standing in bad in any way relates to spirit. Do you think that spirit is our main source of regen or something? Mastery > Spirit. More mastery = less healing required.

04/26/2012 08:24 AMPosted by Sellys

I've found as we get to the harder, longer, more heal intensive fights that I need more spirit than I did back when we were whomping heroic morchok and ultraxxion.

Just want to point this out.

You're talking about your class, a paladin (unless you have a druid somewhere that you're not posting on for some reason). Paladins NEED spirit. Holy priests NEED spirit. Discs regen mainly via Rapture. Shamans need spirit. And druids regen mainly via intellect, through revitalize.

Er, yeah. What Fleurs said. ^^

Actually, according to my friend Gamex, spirit is great and is worth keeping around to a certain point. He was running about 3k spirit around the time he killed Heroic Rag (US first 10 man). I'm not certain if his views have changed, but I thought it was commonly accepted that it's Int>Haste to 2005>Spirit to Comfort>Mastery>Haste>Crit.
04/26/2012 03:46 PMPosted by Fleurs
What content you're doing doesn't change the fact that regen via revitalize (int) > spirit by miles.

This makes 0 sense and doesn't prove an argument btw Fluer. If you're ooming during a fight (assuming you are maxing out intellect appropriately) then you need more spirit. Period.

Whether or not you're ooming comes down entirely to playstyle.

Except if people actually experimented a bit (it's only a few hundred gold at most to reforge everything), you'd realize there's like 0 difference between having spirit and not having spirit - ESPECIALLY with the inflated int levels.

I've tried 3400 spirit and it feels no better on regen than 1800 spirit. I've put on the heroic HoU and had no mana changes from when I didn't wear it and just went straight int. Replenishment, revitalize, and innervate all go off of your max mana and as a druid, that's all you need.

I'm not doubting your friend but for every druid I see wasting a ton of mastery to pick up retarded amounts of spirit, I see a similarly progressed one rocking 0 spirit for the exact same content. My personal experience is that spirit hasn't been useful since the beginning of t12 and in every situation I've put myself in, I have noticed no benefit at all to having a lot of spirit verses not having any.

Whether or not you're ooming comes down entirely to playstyle.

If you're ooming during a fight then you need more spirit. Period.

... So which one of these are arguments are you going to stick with?

04/26/2012 04:19 PMPosted by Röth

Actually, according to my friend Gamex, spirit is great and is worth keeping around to a certain point.

Gamex is cool. I'm glad you're friends with him. So, what does he have to do with this? Does him being a top 10 US guild a while back somehow make something different here math-wise?

The argument here is this: Does the amount of mastery we can gain outweigh a small amount of mana regen via spirit after reaching haste breakpoints and upon maximizing your intellect? The answer is mastery upon reaching certain gear levels. That's it. There's nothing about playstyle. If you personally like spirit, then you're gimping yourself. Plain and simple.

If the argument were "Can we still down content with high amounts of spirit instead of mastery?" I'd say yes. This content is so easy. You can go in wearing agility gear as a druid and still be able to do !@#$.

But that's not what this topic is about. It's about maximizing your toon, and maximizing your rdruid means mastery > spirit in almost every single case.

If you want to get into the topic of having mana troubles, then you should pay attention to the fact that almost every druid who DO, are not using the right gear for the fights that actually are mana-intensive (spine/madness because of how long they are). GOOD rdruids will have 2pc2pc available for those mana intensive fights (if they have it available to them).

edit: Also just want to say, Gamex is probably talking about the ~1600 spirit we were running around with back in FL. And right now, while reforging out of every piece of spirit, we're over that amount by quite a lot. So... Yeah.

"OOMing comes down to your playstyle" = "OOMing means you need more spirit"????

umwat

04/26/2012 04:50 PMPosted by Röth

There is a difference though, and spirit's regen will go up as intellect increases. If you need a little extra, you should get a little extra.

And your mana regen via revitalize goes up as you gain more intellect too. By a TON more than spirit. So.............................

wat?

It's nothing like expertise or hit. Almost every DPS NEEDS those stats. Rdruids do not NEED spirit.

I think all you're trying to tell me right now, is if you're OOMing, get more spirit. And what I have to say to that is: If you're ooming enough to need to lose mastery for more spirit, you're a bad rdruid that can't maximize your class's spec.
Time your CDs right, properly gem/enchant/spec your character. Play correctly and this shouldn't be a problem.

And again, if an rdruid is having mana issues, I will again say: Get 2pc 2pc. It is better overall mana-wise than reforging for more spirit. There's a thread on it Jumpies made a few months ago.

04/26/2012 04:50 PMPosted by Röth

get as much as you need, and any of it above that is useless.

From what I understand (and I'm not a druid...not really) druids are pretty solidly GCD locked well before DS gear levels. There's almost a hard limit on how much mana they can consume without being stupid (sort of like disc priests, which I know much better).

Once you're GCD locked in the important phases of fights, there are basically two ways to increase your healing output to meet demand: stack Spirit so you can cast more inefficiently, or stack throughput stats to make your heals bigger.

The point Fleur is trying to make is that the Mastery route is simply more effective for druids specifically. Druids don't gain much from moving to inefficient heals (what are you going to do, start casting Regrowths without OOC?) but they do gain a lot from Mastery.

If you're ooming as a druid in 397 gear, you'd gain substantially more from fixing your spell selection and reforging into Mastery than from continuing to cast wrong and reforging Spirit to compensate. Or that's my understanding. Druid regen/throughput works a lot like Disc's, which I do understand pretty well, and not at all like the holy specs.